|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 12:06:50 GMT -5
Many today would claim the Apostles Creed as their own statement, and yet others would claim it as partial heresy. Why? The Creed is great, but (1) it was not written by any Apostle and (2) it states the debateable issue of Jesus in hell. Some teach that Jesus went to hell to proclaim His VICTORY while others state (like false prophets such as Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland etc etc) that Jesus paid for Redemption in Hell. These false prophets get their idea, as one source, from the "Apostle's" Creed, which states: I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. See that? He "decended into hell". What are you thoughts on this issue? I prefer the Atanasian Creed
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 23, 2006 14:01:50 GMT -5
There are a few different translations for the word hell. I think one is a word for the grave.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 23, 2006 15:13:56 GMT -5
True, but the implicit teaching is not the grave in reference to hell in this Creed
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 24, 2006 9:30:29 GMT -5
Rom 4:25 states "He who was delivered [Gk: paradidomi = "given into the hands of another"] because of our transgressions, and was raised [Gk: egeiro = "to arouse from the sleep of death"] because of our justification.
I could be wrong, but I understand this as being given into the hands of death, Hell.
Also 1 Peter 3:19, 4:6 lead me to this understanding. But I haven't investigated it much so would love to hear your responses.
Blessings
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 11:08:29 GMT -5
Never saw it as such.
However, would this mean, in your view, he paid part of our redemption in hell?
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 24, 2006 11:23:05 GMT -5
I am not dogmatic on this issue and believe I am open to other views, however, I have always understood Jesus to have gone to literal hell.
One reason I believe this is because Jesus was the first born from the dead. This is not talking about physical death, because Jesus raised several people from the dead in his earthly ministry before He was crucified. Therefore it has to be talking about spiritual death. Jesus never sinned but became sin on the cross and the penalty for that was hell.
Also Acts Chapter 2 seems to me to say clearly that Jesus was in hell.
What do you guys think about the first born from the dead issue referring to spiritual death? Wouldn't that mean Jesus had to go to hell?
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 11:40:50 GMT -5
To say He went to hell for whatever reason may just be debateable...however, to say he died spiritually is NOT debateable.
If Jesus died spiritually then not one of us is saved.
We all understand that the OT sacrifical lambs represented the Lamb Of God to come....
The OT lambs didn't "die spiritually".
Jesus' death was PHYSCIAL, contrary to your above statement and it was His PHYSCIAL Death that brought Redemption:
PHYSCIAL: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot (1 peter 1:9)
PHYSCIAL: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)
PHYSCIAL: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)
PHYSCIAL: In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight (Col 1:22)
Lastly, He didn't die spirituallyl, He DEFEATED spiritual death:
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (col 2:15)
To come to any other conclusion is to be in error.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 24, 2006 11:51:53 GMT -5
To come to any other conclusion is to be in error. I wont be so quick to jump at knowing it all... you all prove to me there's aspects of scripture I haven't taken into consideration and hope these discussions open my eyes to understanding scripture better. But back to the subject, here's my two cents... if we are committed to hell for our sins, then to pay the fine, wouldn't the Savior need to go to hell? Physical death is the natural depravity of mankind, all creation is dieing physically. But our punishment for our sins is eternity in hell. And Christ defeated death by His resurrection, so what was He resurrected from? And I wonder where He was during those three days? Blessings,
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 12:04:12 GMT -5
Jesus told us where he was... In Paradise. I'm confidant that hell isn't Paradise. Also, you didn't reference any points on the verses I provided which constantly show the pattern of His PHYSCIAL Death being our Redemption. Could you please explain those passages and THEN explain where in the BIBLE it teaches He paid for our sins in hell? Looking forward to your reply
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 24, 2006 13:48:37 GMT -5
I'm not making my statements as if I know, I'm asking the questions for the feedback so I can see different points of view. I apologize for not attending to your references, as well.
I do see the pattern you bring up, and I agree it makes sense from your stand point. Except your point about Him saying He would be in paradise. He made the statement to the man on the cross, though I'm not confident "tomorrow" was meant as "24 hours" (I'm unsure, but open). But with that rationale, do you suggest He went to paradise, then resurrected from paradise to walk the planet, then ascended back to paradise? Or do you suggest paradise is not heaven and is another place?
blessings
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 24, 2006 14:30:06 GMT -5
biblethumper,
I do not think you paid attention to what I said. Can you show me where I ever denied that Jesus died physically? I never did.
What I pointed out is that Jesus is repeatedly referred to as the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5). Before Jesus died on the Cross of Calvary and was resurrected, there were several people he raised again from physical death in His earthly ministry. So if Jesus raised several people from physical death in His earthly ministry before He Himself was raised from the dead, then I do not see how it means the first born from the dead in only a physical sense.
Jesus was made sin on Calvary (2 Corinthians 5:21). Sin causes separation from God. Jesus was made sin because God the Father forsook Him on the Cross. If the penalty for sin is hell, and Jesus died physically in that state then I can see clearly why He should have to go to hell.
It also says in Revelation 1:5 that Jesus was the first begotten from the dead. This is the same word used in Romans 8:29 where it says Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren. Was that referring to physical birth? How could that be? Many people had already been born physically. I believe it was referring to being spiritually reborn from the dead.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 14:34:02 GMT -5
Well, Scripture says this:
Jesus said to the thief on the Cross:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Now, when Jesus said "TODAY", you are correct in saying it was most likely not a 24 hour period.
When He died, He went into Eternity, correct?
Thus, time ceased and endless eternity began.
That means when he said "today", it was an endless "today", because in eternity one is perpetually IN "today" or the "now".
Ok.
Where IS Paradise?
2Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul went to this place where Jesus also went.
Is it Heaven or Hell?
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
We see the Tree of Life isn't in Hell.
Thus, we see the clear answer here, that Christ went to Heaven and took the repentant thief with Him; not to hell, but to Glory, the Paradise of God, as noted above.
Amen.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 14:37:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 24, 2006 15:04:19 GMT -5
Somebody can be false, yet preach things that are correct. Maybe I will look at the link, maybe not. Can you refute what I pointed out?
Jesus also said in Matthew 12:40 that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. The heart of the earth is not up.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 15:07:43 GMT -5
yes, the refutation is in the link; the reason I give the link is because it's much better than what I could personally say on the topic As for matthew, this is referring to His Body, as is clear from other passages of Scripture being in Paradise which I have pointed out. Thus, "Father, into YOUR hands I commend my Spirit" uttered from the Cross confirms that the Father was Faithful in taking His SPIRIT to Paradise. His BODY was "in the earth", for three days and three nights. His Spirit? I've already pointed to the Paradise Scriptures.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 24, 2006 15:25:51 GMT -5
I read the article and there is no refutation in it to any of the points I brought up above. I think you need to go back and read that thread again carefully.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 24, 2006 15:48:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ejuliot on Apr 25, 2006 11:21:00 GMT -5
Somebody can be false, yet preach things that are correct. Maybe I will look at the link, maybe not. Can you refute what I pointed out? Jesus also said in Matthew 12:40 that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. The heart of the earth is not up. I just read this scripture this morning and was going to post it here but Micah beat me to it. I was thinking about this a bit in conjunction with "today you will be with me in Paradise." According to Luke 16 Abraham's bosom was a sort of paradise where the dead went (according to some) and it is right next to hell in the belly of the earth. Maybe Jesus went to the belly of the earth to Abraham's bosom? Just throwing out a random suggestion. ;D
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 25, 2006 13:00:13 GMT -5
hey sis! You say "according to some"... can you give an "according to Scripture"? and what do you think about the paradise verses ALREADY cited? do you believe these teach the Tree of Life which is in Paradise was in a place beside hell? Just some thoughts
|
|
|
Post by ejuliot on Apr 25, 2006 14:19:18 GMT -5
hey sis! You say "according to some"... can you give an "according to Scripture"? and what do you think about the paradise verses ALREADY cited? do you believe these teach the Tree of Life which is in Paradise was in a place beside hell? Just some thoughts I am not really sure I haven't put much thought into it. I think (not necessarily what I believe) that those who believe that Abraham's bosom was paradise also believe that there is a separate heaven that is paradise. From what I have heard they say that people before Christ could not enter heaven because Christ had not died yet but the righteous went to a paradise that was separate from heaven because they could not enter "heaven heaven". The only scriptural support for this is in Luke 16 in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. I guess there would have to be more than one paradise. Critics call Abraham's bosom purgatory, but those who support it say it isn't because it is not a place where a person is prayed out or tormented, it is an actual paradise much like heaven. I don't know for sure. Just a random thought.
|
|
|
Post by ejuliot on Apr 25, 2006 14:20:01 GMT -5
How do you explain matthew 12:40? If christ went to paradise?
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 25, 2006 15:44:12 GMT -5
How do you explain matthew 12:40? If christ went to paradise? Your question here is answered on page 1 of this thread, sister Check it out here: As for matthew, this is referring to His Body, as is clear from other passages of Scripture being in Paradise which I have pointed out.
Thus, "Father, into YOUR hands I commend my Spirit" uttered from the Cross confirms that the Father was Faithful in taking His SPIRIT to Paradise.
His BODY was "in the earth", for three days and three nights.
His Spirit?
I've already pointed to the Paradise Scriptures.As a footnote to page one on this verse, I'll say in conclusion to Matthew 12:40: With the Scriptures already quouted on Paradise being clearly the dwelling place of God, I do not interpret those verses in light of Matthew 12; I interpret Matthew 12 in light of the clear teaching on the MULTIPLE verses and patterns I have shown. You cannot allow one standalone verse to interpret several verses; you have your exegesis distorted; literally backwards. To take one standalone verse to prove that several/multiple verses are "incorrectly interpreted" is to be in error.... Such methods are used, LITERALLY, by JW's to "prove" that Jesus is not God.... they take one verse ("The Father is greater than I") to "prove" the other MULTIPLE verses which show He IS God are "incorrectly interpreted". We must come to proper Biblical conclusion or we'll find ourselves seeing Scripture as mere men who cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth. I'm not attacking you here, sister... I'm simply pointing out your method of exegesis is absolutely internally interpreted rather than objectively concluded Also, Here's what a few scholars say on the issue: GILL On Matthew 12:40: So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth", in distinction from the surface of it BARNES On Matthew 12:40: In the heart of the earth - The Jews used the word “heart” to denote the “interior” of a thing, or to speak of being in a thing. It means, here, to be in the grave or sepulchre.
|
|
|
Post by ejuliot on Apr 25, 2006 16:52:44 GMT -5
thanks!
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 25, 2006 17:28:35 GMT -5
I watched an old video of myself recently which I preached many years ago while in the Word of Faith Movement....At that time I was a youth pastor at our highly Charismatic WOF church of that day, and I said in the video as I preached, "Jesus went to hell for you". My point is that I'm not saying anyone is wrong and I'm "right", becaise I once preached and believed that false concept (however, it's strange I accepted such a doctrine ONLY when I entered the WOF Movement; previously, as a new Believer, I had no idea of such a doctrine) So, I can't say someone is not saved or evil or blah blah blah... I taught the doctrine fro years! I have the video where I see MYSELF say it! It's simply a matter of stayingh away from the Benny Hinn's and Copelands of the world, because they're the guys who spread this cancer about Jesus. I wonder how many have believed in a "Jesus in hell" doctrine by reading the Word alone?
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 25, 2006 19:46:08 GMT -5
Just a thought... Luke 23:46, I don't see it saying anything about going to paradise, just committing His Spirit into His hands. In other words, giving His Spirit up to the Father to do as He wills. And the next step the Father takes is? Raises Him from the dead!
I do see this as a vague statement to which we are able to understand its meaning in different ways, but if we look at only what it says, then it leaves room for other passages to fill in the blanks, so to speak. If we are too quick to believe the verse says Jesus is immediately taken into paradise just because He releases His Spirit to the Father, we might fail to see further truth. Possibly...
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 7:50:14 GMT -5
Grant, well said! I still don't agree though hahaha lol teasing, friend.
K... here's my issue with this whole "Jesus in hell" thing.
I know some who teach He paid our REDEMPTION in hell, which, according to Scripture, shows one is not saved.
I know some who believe He went there but aren;t sure WHY; I can swing with that.
I know some who teach that Jesus went to hell to proclaim His Victory.... possibly He did, as I really do not know.
The issue is in teaching He SAVED us, not only through Calvary, but in the pit of hell (Copeland says that is where the Church was BORN; in hell!)
See my point?
The "Jesus died spiritually/went to hell" teaching can be vaugue, but in some cases it presents a different gospel.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 26, 2006 8:42:14 GMT -5
Dan, logically thinking? I like it... but it must be too early for my head to turn the cranks because I can't seem to pickup on your train of thought. My fault here... Just logically speaking though, the way I understood it (and there's plenty of room for error here, no doubt) was that if one paid the fine then they had to do just that, pay the fine. Physical death is, how I understand it, the fine of all creation due to man's fall. Everyone and everything eventually dies because of our friend sin (*cough cough*). But spiritual death, eternal death -- hell, is due to our personal sin. So my thought is, how does One pay for our sin if He doesn't pay the fine? (this is under the assumption my description of physical vs. spiritual death is accurate, though I believe you had verses to sway you on only physical penalty... again, too early for me I guess) Blessings to you all
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 26, 2006 8:44:59 GMT -5
I wonder how many have believed in a "Jesus in hell" doctrine by reading the Word alone? Good question, too. You know I never believed in the "Jesus went to Hell" until last year. I read a couple verses that struck me as WOW! What else could this mean? But I since forgot which verses. I'll try looking them up, perhaps only to find I misread em (ack!).
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 9:41:13 GMT -5
Well, we could come to ten thousand assumptions on Jesus dying spiritually, but then again, they'd still be just that: Assumptions.
The Bible consistently makes reference in several Biblical Books on the physcial Blood and Body of Jesus.
We're sanctified by the BODY.
Saved by His BLOOD.
On and on the list goes concerning His Death on the Cross.
The entirety of Scripture starts and finishes with the Cross.
To be dead spiritually would neccessitate the experience of being Born Again, regardless of any afterthought.
To be spiritually DEAD means one must be given a new nature; ie, salvation.
Jesus Christ was not given Salvation, nor a "new nature".
He alone IS the Author and Finisher of our Faith; He's not the recipient of that Faith.
Scripture, as made clear in this post, speaks of His Physcial Sufferings on Calvary.
If, as one assumes, He died spiritually and went to hell for us, why not preach the Gospel as being this:
"Repent! Jesus died spiritually and became a sinner and was Born Again in Hell for you! Come to the Christ who died spiritually! Come to Jesus Christ, the One who became a sinner! He not only BORE your sins but He BECAME your sin! He was a sinner! He became one with satan in nature as to be spiritually dead in sin is to be of the satanic order! Come to Jesus, the Lamb of God who did more than die on the Cross for you! He went to hell and joined Himself to satan that you may be saved!"
I'm sorry, Grant, but that type of a gospel will send a soul TO hell, not save him or her FROM hell.
The Bible says in 1 Peter 2:24 that my sins were borne by Jesus on the CROSS; not in hell.
If being spiritually dead means dead in sins, which it does, and means that one must be Born Again, then the doctrine of Christ being spiritually dead is a gospel perpetrated by devils and believing it places one on dangerous grounds.
We cannot change what spiritual death means to fit our theology; spirtual death means spiritual death, and it teaches the necessity of being Born Again.
hence, do you believe Jesus was in need of the New Birth, Grant?
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 26, 2006 12:58:46 GMT -5
Hmmm... you've definitely given me some more to feed on and I do (think) I believe what you're pointing out. Still need to digest it though. hence, do you believe Jesus was in need of the New Birth, Grant? Not at all... nor did He sin. And since I believe we spiritually die when we sin but physically die because of sin entering the world, I have understood it to be Jesus never died spiritually while on earth, yet taking our sins upon Him would mean spiritual death. Then He died physically for the nature of sin and paid the punishment for OUR sins (not Adam's) in Hell. So he dies on the cross, His spirit goes somewhere but I'm not convinced that's heaven, His body in the tomb. His body stays on earth for a few days, but His Spirit must be somewhere... and for what purpose? (I'm just thinking out loud as I'm waiting on a call) I'm enjoying this discussions... blessing to you all.
|
|