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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 26, 2006 13:13:49 GMT -5
If you believe that Jesus went to Hell.. then do you think He spent (or rather is spending) eternity there? Isn't that eternal death?
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Post by Grant on Apr 26, 2006 13:25:38 GMT -5
Not at all. He was raised from the dead... resurrected, defeating death. If our only punishment for our sins is physical death, then why do we goto Hell after it? (mind you I'm still trying to figure this out) And if Hell is a punishment for our sins, then wouldn't One need to go there to pay that fine for us? If not, how is the fine paid? But being that Jesus is then resurrected from Hell (if it were true, that is), then that would be defeating eternal death and giving us then life. And PLEASE keep in mind, I'm not camped on any of this, I'm just giving you all my thoughts and questions so I can come to a better understanding of the truth, regardless if it means I'm completely wrong here.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 13:31:41 GMT -5
Hell is the FRUIT of the punishment for our sins, Grant...the actual punishment is separation from God, not hell...hell is but the RESULT of the punishment. Also, you said you believe Jesus did not sin but that He died spiritually. We really can't have it both ways... if He died spiritually He Himself needed to be Born Again. I just don't believe Jesus repented and received Jesus To die spiritually neccessitates the New Birth. As a side note, the Lord impressed upon my heart while in prayer this morning the following: It's not WHERE He went after death that necessitates an explaination, but WHY He went that requires a dissection of the doctrine.To say He went to Heaven or Hell is not the issue of Salvation; the "why" is the issue. If He went because He died spiritually (rather than proclaiming His Victory) then one cannot then claim He was not a sinner; spiritual death causes one to be in NEED (NEED!) of Salvation. If He went to proclaim His Victory...AMEN!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 26, 2006 13:32:02 GMT -5
Ok. I was just asking. I have not heard much of this doctrine. I have always just thought that Jesus went to Abraham's bosom(paradise). I haven't put much thought into it.
I was just thinking (first thing that came to mind) that Hell is eternal and that if he didn't spend eternity there did he pay the entire fine... according to the Jesus went to hell line of thought. Ok, I just didn't know what type of answer you might give.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 13:39:13 GMT -5
Here;s a thought, Josh.... If Jesus went to Paradise and Revelation tells us that Paradises' specific location is in Heaven, then how does one claim paradise is Abraham's Bosom? Yes, there is definately an "abraham's bosom" as the Scripture teaches, yet, I ask... where does it claim that it's Paradise? Also, John 1:18 specifically tells us Jesus is in the FATHER'S bosom, not Abraham's Any Scriptures for that one?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 26, 2006 14:05:38 GMT -5
Has Jesus always been in the Father's bosom? Like I said, I haven't put a lot of study in this area. I am not conviced that Abraham's bosom is Heaven. I guess if it is then the "great gulf" inbetween is the earth? Hmm... I guess for some reason I have thought that Abraham's bosom is where the OT saints went. Atleast that's where Abraham was! But then maybe now they are in heaven? And now Abraham's bosom is empty but the place of torrment still has people there but will be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Erk.. I don't know. Something happened when Jesus died... There were some dead saints walking around. Matt 27 I am far far from having all the holes filled in on this doctrine. I guess when Jesus said he was going to paradise I thought it could not be heaven, because later He said he had not ascended to the Father. Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) I feel like I'm shooting in the dark here. I'm hoping you guys know it all.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 14:33:59 GMT -5
hahah I wish I knew it all! I WISH! lol As stated, however, the Lord has this morning led me to change my thoughts on the issue from WHERE to WHY .... So, supposing He DID go to hell (burning part of abraham's bosom) the question is "WHY"did He? 1- To pay for our sins? 2- To Proclaim His Voctory? I vote #2 (That is, IF He went at all...which I do not know if He did... but again, it's the WHY, not the WHERE)
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Post by Grant on Apr 26, 2006 16:34:44 GMT -5
I guess one question I have is when do we die spiritually? When we are created/born or when we actually knowingly sin ("age of accountability")? I'm interested in the pattern you've shown, Dan, in regards to physical death of Jesus being the payment. But if that is literally the case, then why do we still die physically if that is our punishment for sin? I understood the nature of sin being our physical death, to which we can't get away from being in this world, and personal sin being our spiritual death. If Jesus defeated death, which death did He defeat and how? If it was spiritual, wouldn't He have to enter into it and then be raised from it? I'm coming around to understand some of your points so don't give up on me...
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 17:59:09 GMT -5
I was pondering on John the baptist being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb....
This shows me:
1- Children in the womb BEFORE birth are receptive to the Presence of God (he lept)
2- No "Tongues" showed up as the "initial sign" (nor with Jesus, our Pattern)
3- The Holy Ghost cannot dwell in a "sinner" who is unregenerate
4- We die spiritually when we heed the nature we are born with (Adam's sin affected us)
As for Jesus not having to die spiritually, I think of it like this:
In a boxing ring, the one who claims the victory did not first have to lose or become a loser to win.... you see?
You don't have to partake of the loss to claim victory.
Thus, I cannot see Jesus having to become dead spiritually in order to redeem the dead.
Physcial death is not what He overcame; He overcame sin and transgression and the last enemy to be defeated is physcial death, so says Paul the Apostle.
Physcial death WILL be defeated.... we see this as the Coming of the Lord, which is a tenet held by all Believers.
Physical death is the RESULT/EFFECT of Adam's sin; it is not sin itself...it';s simply the curse.
Just as Jesus' death did not take the curse of the ground away, so it did not take the curse of physcial death away...yet.
Such comes at the Second Advent.
I believe that full redemption will be experienced in Glory..... we have only a partial redemption now...in the sense that we still die, sickness, disease etc etc.
YES! Jesus paid for ALL Redemption, yet such manifestation will be fully realized at His Return.
Hence, we still die.
Still get sick.
Still struggle against sin.
etc etc.
But the point is that His physical death is what defeated all sin and evil.
Why?
Because it was the BLOOD, which is an essential of Christian Doctrine.
So, we SHOULD be saying it like this:
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
You see?
His BODY.
Our IN.
On the TREE.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 18:42:57 GMT -5
"The penalty for sin is so great that it requires the shedding of Blood" - Jesse Morrell
"All sin can be covered by Christ's Blood" - Jesse Morrell
(University of Toronto PT2)
Come on Jesse... you're quiet on these topics, but your street preaching gives such amazing answers lol hehehe
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Post by Grant on Apr 26, 2006 21:50:32 GMT -5
Dan, that was good and you've given me a better picture of it. Here's a verse that had me think it: Matt 12:40 (did someone already reference this?) Jesus being in the heart of the earth. Blueletterbible has "heart" linked to two verses describing what also seems to be hell. So how does this work into your equation (so to speak, lol)? appreciate this brothers and sisters...
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 27, 2006 8:15:02 GMT -5
This the single greatest answer I have read on this topic... Here's a little of the article: (I don't swallow everything in thsi article yet the primary gist of it brings out Greek-word meanings, etc etc.. so it's interesting to read and take note of) Also, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus visited hell. Acts 2:31 says that He went to "Hades" (New American Standard Bible), but "Hades" is not hell. The word "Hades" refers to the realm of the dead, a temporary place where they await the resurrection. Revelation 20:11-15 in the NASB or the New International Version give a clear distinction between the two. Hell is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. Grant, let me know what you think of this article: www.gotquestions.org/where-was-Jesus.html
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Post by Grant on Apr 27, 2006 9:40:04 GMT -5
Dan, didn't read the article yet, sorry... just got to work. But I'll try to later.
Just so you know, most of what I've been saying is for argument's sake because I'm not camped on any of this. But you've brought excellent points which have helped me get a clearer head on this.
I totally agree w/ your last comments, especially regarding Hades and Hell.
Much appreciated brothers and sisters.
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Post by Grant on Apr 27, 2006 9:52:40 GMT -5
Ok, I lied... i couldn't resist and started right in on the link. Good (and short, to the point) article. Only answered a couple questions brought up earlier, but answered them well, I give it that. The most obvious point it brought up is differentiating Jesus' spirit and the Holy Spirit, being Jesus' spirit was separated from the Father ("spiritually dead"), yet alive by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, to which He was never separated from. Now that makes complete sense to me! I need to look into it more though. But I just love these kind of details... Thanks again all.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 27, 2006 14:55:24 GMT -5
Hi Grant! Listen... This entire post, primarily your discussion with me and mine with you, has caused me to reflect, and I've now just finished a Compilation in tribute to you and this post titled "The Precious Blood Of The Lamb". This is a short devotional comp I literally just finished and uploaded to my server, but i'd love you to hear it because it's such a wonderful topic! There are a few ministers in this comp, but the one who says "He reached down and took me by the hand and walked me to a Cross called Calvary" is my Senior Pastor (He's senior in the pastoral sense but not much older than I am hehe) Tell me what you think! setup.finalweb.net/home/1764/1764/audio/The%20Precious%20Blood%20Of%20The%20Lamb.mp3
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Post by Grant on Apr 27, 2006 16:52:12 GMT -5
awesome stuff! I love hearing comps... I appreciate your time through this thread but keep watch because after I poke around scripture and my mind does some "mind stuff" (LOL) I'll wanna try to lay it all out on the table to find any left behind holes. I'm just like that. Blessings bro!
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