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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 9, 2006 15:09:21 GMT -5
Guns can kill children too, are they ever good? So can cars, dogs, dieased rats, cute and cuddly rabies laced bunnies, planes, buildings, air... Ask those liberated from Auschwitz with guns if that wasn't good. Yes you are correct. You have hit on the point I was attempting to make. So are you saying that perhaps there aren't absolutes, even in the case of abortion? At any rate, continued discussion will have to be made elsewhere as Jesse has told me not to post in this section any more. I am only posting this since this comment was directed at me. Birth control (at least here in canada) isn't "killing a child". Birth Control medication PREVENTS sperm from reaching the ovaries. You can't kill a child that doesn;t exist and has not been conceived. I'm not against the "pill" in any shape, fashion or form. The "morning after" pill and offshoots such as that are definately sinful, as they are designed to terminate a conception. The "pill" is not so. It PREVENTS the sperm from swimming his way up to the egg, so no fertilization takes place. Far from murder. RCC dogma raped the intelligent use of God given medication and Protestants bought into it. Not good. It is an established medical fact that the "pill" prevents rather than terminates. Any statement to the contrary is an ill informed statement showing ignorance. If the general population en-masse has been lied to about the actual effects of the "pill" could someone please provide the proof of this and why we're all deceived into thinking the "pill' is good when it;s really a murder-device? Awaiting your reply. Again, if you are awaiting my reply, you'll have to move this thread to the worldview section. All of the hecklers have been forbidden from posting here. Thumper, you have hit on the exact point I was making in response to ejuliot's comment about contraception (e.g. the pill, condoms) killing babies.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 19:26:10 GMT -5
Well, trekky, it's simply fact, whether a Christian, athesit or RCC wants to concede it or not....you and I both know that there is no death in the "pill".....there is a preventative means, given by God I might add, that PREVENTS conception, not destroys it. You see, the pill is God's remedy against abortion. Abortionists kill while God provides the means to PREVENT. This is medical fact and undisputed. It's just fact. I can;t flow with you on this one ejuoliot, because your's is opnion based on a fallacy of a sort which I have never even heard of until this thread. I did not know anyone existed who believed the pill killed a child. I'm not being sarcastic, only serious. Who told you this and what documentation did they provide? Certainly not medical. Certainly not Biblical. Certainly not scientific. So...where di you receive your opinion? I'm curious to know
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:31:32 GMT -5
Of course I am not against abstinence! In a marriage situation...I don't think it is right to use a contraceptive to kill a living human being especially a child. I think you know what is reasonable and what is not but you just want to argue. So, I am going to go take my self- defense final right now. I don't have time to argue pointlessly with you and I find this question a little inappropriate... Jules, If all forms of birth control or prevention are wrong, why aren't don't you have sex all of the time (with your husband, of course)? Perhaps you should only have sex every day during the times you are most fertile. So sorry to interrupt your...um...reproductive activities. Please, by all means, go back to breeding now. I don't have a husband, first off, so that is the main reason I don't have sex all the time But seriously, there are times in the Bible that abstinence was provided for and allowed, but only for specified amounts of time and that a husband and wife should not refrain from sexual relations for too long, lest they be tempted.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 19:34:30 GMT -5
Yes, amen! and when they DO come together and do not desire children at that time... TAKE THE PILL
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:36:00 GMT -5
Birth control (at least here in canada) isn't "killing a child". Birth Control medication PREVENTS sperm from reaching the ovaries. You can't kill a child that doesn;t exist and has not been conceived. I'm not against the "pill" in any shape, fashion or form. The "morning after" pill and offshoots such as that are definately sinful, as they are designed to terminate a conception. The "pill" is not so. It PREVENTS the sperm from swimming his way up to the egg, so no fertilization takes place. Far from murder. RCC dogma raped the intelligent use of God given medication and Protestants bought into it. Not good. It is an established medical fact that the "pill" prevents rather than terminates. Any statement to the contrary is an ill informed statement showing ignorance. If the general population en-masse has been lied to about the actual effects of the "pill" could someone please provide the proof of this and why we're all deceived into thinking the "pill' is good when it;s really a murder-device? Awaiting your reply. Dan, I don't know what kind of PILL you guys have up there in Canada, but the PILL does not work in the way you suggest. (unless it is in the shape of a diaphragm) The egg is in motion, and could possibly have been fertilized when the pill is used, the pill prevents the egg from attaching itself to the uterine wall. It doesn't "Stop" sperm at all. That would be a diaphragm (however you spell that) or a condom. The pill therefore can act as an abortive method in the rare (but certainly possible) instances where the egg was fertilized and then was prevented from attaching itself. That is why the pill is sinful as well.
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:45:49 GMT -5
Dan, in response to your questions about the Pill and providing medical evidence that it does in fact cause abortion in some cases: How does the Pill work? The Pill has three mechanisms of action which can easily be looked up in the Physician's Desk Reference. 1) Sometimes, the Pill suppresses ovulation. When this happens, an egg is not released and conception cannot occur. (It's important to read on and find out about the high rates of breakthrough ovulation. When ovulation is not suppressed, pregnancy can occur.) 2) The Pill also works to thicken the woman's cervical mucus which can "restrict" (but not prevent) sperm from moving up the reproductive tract toward the egg. 3) One way the Pill causes early abortions is that it interfers with the flexing motions and the cilia movement of the fallopian tubes. These changes slow the transportation of newly conceived child from the fallopian tubes to the womb. Unfortunately, many small babies starve to death in the fallopian tubes because chemicals caused changes that prevented them from reaching the womb in time to be nourished. 4) Another way the Pill causes early abortions: If your tiny baby survives the ride down the fallopian tube to your womb, the Pill will almost always cause the endometrium (the lining of your uterus) to reject your child. Chemical reactions often cause the lining of your womb to become thin, shriveled and unable to support implantation of your newly conceived child. This means that in almost every case, your new child will not be able to attach to the wall of your womb where he or she would normally live, grow and receive nourishment for 9 months. This means your tiny baby will starve to death and his or her remains will be passed along in your next bleeding cycle. (The "Study of Abortion Deaths Commission" estimates that this happens in women in America who use the Pill approximately 1 to 4 million times each year.) The chemicals that cause these early abortions are called abortifacients which is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion. Why the big secret? Why aren't most women aware that the Pill causes early abortions? Let's look at the large pharmaceutical companies who advertise, market and sell the Pill. They make huge profits from the Pill -- and they'll continue to make mega-profits -- if women are convinced they're not getting pregnant and they keep buying and taking the Pill everyday. But are they being honest with you? Have they clearly explained that their products cause millions of early chemical abortions each year? The New Pills: Much Higher Rates of Breakthrough Ovulation . . . The original Pill of the 1960's had to be modified due to harmful side effects that women were experiencing because of the powerful chemicals. All versions of today's "Combination Pill" have a reduced hormonal content. When compared to the Pills of the 1960's and 1970's, this reduces the chance of harmful side effects for women, but it also increases their chances of ovulating and conceiving a son or daughter. Dr. Ronald Chez, a scientist at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), publicly stated that the new Pills of today, with their lower estrogen dose, allow ovulation up to 50% of the time! (Source: Sterns, David, M.D., Sterns, Gina, R.N., B.S.N., Yaksich, Pamela, "Gambling with Life, How the I.U.D. and 'The Pill' Work" (www.top.net/vitalsigns). With these newer Pills, simply missing one tablet, or failing to take the Pill at the same time each day increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation. Reactions with other drugs increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation, especially with caffeine and nicotine, or some prescription medicine (Source: "Abortifacient Contraception: The Pharmaceutical Holocaust" by Dr. Rudolf Ehmann, Human Life Intl., 1993, p.15). Makers of the new "mini-pill" claim it does not have the side effects of the combination pill. However, they don't tell you that scientific research shows the mini-pill does not stop ovulation at all in 67-81% of the women who use it, so the probability of conception is much higher. (Source: Tonti-Fillippini, Nicholas, Linacre Quarterly, 1995) The above was taken from www.prolife.com and gives ample medical references on their website. If you would like more medical research documenting the fact that the PILL and other chemical contraceptives cause abortions, please read another article written by William F. Colliton, Jr., M.D., FACOG, and signed by 26 other physicians. Dr. Colliton is Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at George Washington University Medical Center. Visit this website to read his article: www.epm.org/articles/26doctor.html or get Randy Alcorn's books on the topic.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 20:29:03 GMT -5
hummm..... i'm going to look more into this, as I have medical documentation, which states:
Norgestimate - ethinyl estradiol is an estrogen and progestin combination pill used to prevent pregnancy. It is a birth control pill that works by preventing ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary) and causing changes in the mucus of the cervix which make it difficult for sperm to penetrate and for an egg to implant.
This is an interesting issue for me now with new twists
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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 22:42:42 GMT -5
Thanks Jules! I hope your quest for the truth turns out fruitful Thumper! Just as a side note, the reason that I am not posting in this section is because I don't feel that it is appropriate for me to post because I am not and have not been married and I would prefer to discuss these issues with my possible future spouse. I promise I am not ignoring you!
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Post by biblethumper on May 10, 2006 7:45:29 GMT -5
Well, ejuliot, you should consider discussing the medical aspects, as this has turned out to be something of an interest to me now...
I would like to know, however, if there are any non pro-life groups which show the pill to be what the pro lifer's claim...and is there evidence for this in the medical communtiy as a WHOLE, rather than a small segment, because rebuttals abound and i want something solid.
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Post by ejuliot on May 10, 2006 16:12:06 GMT -5
From the FDA Website: www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/babytabl.html Oral Contraceptives--combined pillFDA Approval Date: First in 1960; most recent in 2003 Description: A pill that suppresses ovulation by the combined actions of the hormones estrogen and progestin. A chewable form was approved in November 2003. Failure Rate (number of pregnancies expected per 100 women per year): 1-2Some Risks: Dizziness; nausea; changes in menstruation, mood, and weight; rarely, cardiovascular disease, including high blood pressure, blood clots, heart attack, and strokes Protection from Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs): None Convenience: Must be taken on daily schedule, regardless of frequency of intercourse. Women using the chewable tablet must drink 8 oz. of liquid immediately after taking. Availability: Prescription Oral Contraceptives--progestin-only minipillFDA Approval Date: 1973 Description: A pill containing only the hormone progestin that reduces and thickens cervical mucus to prevent the sperm from reaching the egg. Failure Rate (number of pregnancies expected per 100 women per year): 2Some Risks: Irregular bleeding, weight gain, breast tenderness, less protection against ectopic pregnancy* Protection from Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs): None Convenience: Must be taken on daily schedule, regardless of frequency of intercourse. Availability: Prescription *An ectopic pregnancy is a condition where a fertilized egg settles and grows in any location other than the inner lining of the uterus. Oral Contraceptives--91-day regimen (Seasonale)
FDA Approval Date: 2003 Description: A pill containing estrogen and progestin, taken in 3-month cycles of 12 weeks of active pills followed by one week of inactive pills. Menstrual periods occur during the 13th week of the cycle. Failure Rate (number of pregnancies expected per 100 women per year): 1-2Some Risks: Similar to oral contraceptives--combined pill Protection from Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs): None Convenience: Must be taken on daily schedule, regardless of frequency of intercourse. Since users will have fewer periods, they should consider the possibility that they might be pregnant if they miss scheduled periods. May have more unplanned bleeding and spotting between periods than with 28-day oral contraceptives. Availability: Prescription Patch (Ortho Evra)FDA Approval Date: 2001 Description: Skin patch worn on the lower abdomen, buttocks, or upper body that releases the hormones progestin and estrogen into the bloodstream. Failure Rate (number of pregnancies expected per 100 women per year): 1-2 (Appears to be less effective in women weighing more than 198 pounds.)Some Risks: Similar to oral contraceptives--combined pill Protection from Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs): None Convenience: New patch is applied once a week for three weeks. Patch is not worn during the fourth week, and woman has a menstrual period. Availability: Prescription www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/397_baby.htmlMinipills. Although taken daily like combined oral contraceptives, minipills contain only the hormone progestin and no estrogen. They work by reducing and thickening cervical mucus to prevent sperm from reaching the egg. They also keep the uterine lining from thickening, which prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. These pills are slightly less effective than combined oral contraceptives.
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Post by ejuliot on May 10, 2006 16:14:01 GMT -5
If they can possibly get pregnant then there is a possibility that they can get pregnant and the baby would die without them knowing. If there is even a .00001% chance I would not take it. This is the life of a real live child that we are dealing with.
I hope that helps thumper.
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Post by biblethumper on May 10, 2006 20:44:13 GMT -5
I will be reading this entire thread and all links posted... as it stands NOW, I cannot condone or endorse contraceptives. Ejuliot...it helped
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