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Post by SlowBro on May 4, 2006 6:54:45 GMT -5
Regarding the Calvinistic doctrine called "the perserverance of the saints" (which by the way differs slightly from the unbiblical "once saved, always saved" doctrine). I am studying Hebrews 6 right now.
If you are a person who likes to use verses 4-6 to support your view that believers can lose their salvation, do you believe it is possible, with verses 4-6 in mind, to regain one's salvation later? To become saved again?
Forgive me if I ask this question then dissapear for a while. I do hope to get back to my other challenge, "Are you pressing logic into the text?". I have not forgotten it.
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Post by biblethumper on May 4, 2006 8:05:36 GMT -5
That is MY view, that 4-6 says you CANNOT regain it if you lose it! amen!
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Post by biblethumper on May 4, 2006 8:06:52 GMT -5
A Quiz For Your Arminian Friends, by Jay Banks
Eph. 1:11 ...[W]ho [God] worketh all things after the counsel of His will.
Q. If God works all things after the counsel of His will, how much does He work to the will of you, me, Satan, etc.?
A. None.
B. 20%
C. 50%
D. 85%
Is. 14:24 Jehovah of hosts hath sworn, saying , Surely, as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand.
Q. How much of what He wants to come to pass, doesn’t?
A. All of His thoughts will come to pass
B. Some of His thoughts will not come to pass
C. A few of His thoughts will not come to pass
D. A lot of His thoughts will not come to pass
Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many bretheren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Q. How many do you think have been called, justified, or glorified that He did not first foreknow or foreordain?
A. Write in your answer: ___________________
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know my own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Q. Where does this scripture say that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep and the goats
A. It doesn’t
B. It doesn’t, but I just know He meant the goats, too
John 6:65 No man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
Q. How many come to Jesus that were not first given to him by the Father?
A. 0
B. 5,000
C. 5,000,000
D. 10,000,000
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me
Q. How many that the Father gave Him will not come to Him?
A. Two
B. A couple of thousand
C. A couple of million
D. Trick question, it says they will all come unto him
John 10:28 I [Jesus] give unto them the (true followers, or ‘sheep’) eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Q. How many sheep do you think have been snatched from either God’s or Jesus’ hands?
A. None
B. 50,000
C. 500,000
D. 1,000,000
Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Q. Considering this, and other related scripture, God having to blot out a name from the book of life would mean:
A. God makes mistakes.
B. Some have been snatched from Jesus’ hands?
C. God didn’t know that some of His sheep were really goats.
D. None of the above.
Q. Could a person whose name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world not have become a Christian (or have saving faith in God if born before Jesus)?
A. No
B. Yes
C. This confuses me, but I’m going to believe the Bible.
D. This confuses me, and I’m going to pretend this isn’t in the Bible (be honest).
Matt. 13 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Q. Jesus himself declared that one of the reasons why He spoke in parables was that the truth might be concealed from whom it was not intended. Is this fair?
A. No.
B. Yes.
C. Who are we to question God?
D. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse.
Rom. 8:28 To them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to His purpose.
Q. How many things do not work for the good of those who love God?
A. 10% of all things
B. 40% of all things
C. 85% of all things
D. Trick question, the Bible says all things work for the good of those who love Him
Mark 14:30 And Jesus said unto him (Peter), Verily I say unto thee, that thou, today, even this night before the thingy crow twice shall deny me thrice.
Questions:
A. Could Peter not have denied Jesus three times before the thingy crowed twice?
Answer here: ____________________________
B. Did Jesus make Peter deny him, or did Peter do it of his own free will?
Answer here: ____________________________
Exodus 4:11 [God Himself asks the rhetorical question] Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or dumb? Who gives him his sight or makes him blind? Is it not I the Lord?
Q. Is this fair?
A. Yes.
B. No.
C. Who are we to question God?
D. I’m going to pretend this isn’t in the Bible.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 4, 2006 19:26:39 GMT -5
If you are a person who likes to use verses 4-6 to support your view that believers can lose their salvation, do you believe it is possible, with verses 4-6 in mind, to regain one's salvation later? To become saved again? After examining the Apostle Peter, his fall and subsequent return to the Lord, it will be apparent that some should reconsider such an interpretation for Heb. 6:4-6 because Peter didn’t fall away to the point where he couldn’t return. Remember, Scripture explicitly shows it is possible to be saved more than once (Lk. 15:24,32; Rom. 11:23 and Jam. 5:19,20), but not if a person falls away as mentioned in Heb. 6:6! Can these two truths be reconciled? Though we can’t be certain, it appears Peter walked with Jesus for about three years during the Lord’s earthly ministry. During those special years Peter experienced the following: He had the unique privilege of being at the Mt. of Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with Jesus. At this time, he heard the audible voice of God say, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him” (Mt. 17:1-6, NIV). Peter was the only apostle of the Twelve to actually walk on the water for a time with Jesus (Mt. 14:29)! He was given powerful, spiritual authority to drive out demons and heal every disease and sickness (Mt. 10:1). The Apostle Peter personally saw Jesus raise three different people from the dead (Lk. 7:14,15; 8:54,55; Jn. 11:43,44). He also saw Jesus’ power instantly heal a leper (Mt. 8:2,3), enable a paralytic to be healed (Mt. 9:2-7), the blind to see (Mk. 8:22-25), and the dumb to speak after a demon was driven out (Mt. 9:32,33). Peter was there when at least 2,000 demons inside a man were begging Jesus for permission to go inside pigs (Mk. 5:12,13). He witnessed Jesus calm the wind and the raging sea with his word (Mk. 4:39). He saw Jesus multiply bread and fish to feed thousands of people on two different occasions (Mt. 16:9,10). He also had unique and vital spiritual truth revealed to him about Jesus directly from the Father (Mt. 16:16,17). Peter heard the demons within people call Jesus the Son of God (Mk. 3:11). He heard Jesus silence those who tried to trap him (Lk. 20:20-26), perfectly answer and handle every trick question (Mt. 22:23-31) and remedy every problem that confronted them (Mt. 17:27; etc.). For years, Peter heard the greatest and wisest teacher who ever lived teach the most important truths with authority. After all these unique, spiritual privileges and opportunities, he denied Christ three times. Yet the Apostle Peter, who already held the highest office in the church (1 Cor. 12:28), was not so mature spiritually that he could not return to Jesus!Finally, after Peter’s return to the Lord, he was the one used on the day of Pentecost, about 50 days later, to win thousands to Christ. He also had the distinguished honor of writing two of the twenty-seven New Testament books. In fact, Peter (who once fell away) won thousands of people to the Lord after he came back. Peter never let his public denial of Christ paralyze him from future service to God. Dear reader, if you once fell away and came back to the Lord, move on with the Lord as he did! Two Truths About Hebrews 6:6There are two relevant truths that need to be noted about Heb. 6:6. First, the word in this verse translated fall away (parapesontas) is found only once in the Greek New Testament. Though fall away in English is found elsewhere, it is not the same Greek word as is used here. Moreover, Peter and the other apostles fell away (skandalizo) (Mt. 26:31,33, NIV), and perhaps multitudes like them throughout the centuries, but it is not the same Greek word as parapesontas. Secondly, the word if is not in the Greek in verse 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame (Heb. 6:6, KJV). Consider what Adam Clarke wrote about this and the aorist tense: “And having fallen away.” I can express my own mind on this translation nearly in the words of Dr. Macknight: “The participles who were enlightened, have tasted, and were made partakers, being aorists, are properly rendered by our translators in the past time; wherefore parapesontas, being an aorist, ought likewise to have been translated in the past time, ‘HAVE fallen away.’ Nevertheless, our translators, following Beza, who without any authority from ancient MSS. has inserted in his version the word ‘if,’ have rendered this clause, IF they fall away, that this text might not appear to contradict the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. But as no translator should take upon him to add to or alter the Scriptures, for the sake of any favourite doctrine, I have translated parapesontas in the past time, ‘have fallen away,’ according to the true import of the word, as standing in connection with the other aorists in the preceding verses” (italics and capitals his). Adam Clarke does not stand alone in his understanding of the Greek. Young’s literal translation reads: And having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified gain to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame (v. 6). Please note, the NASB also renders this passage without the word if: And then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. Kendall surprisingly agrees with Clarke and refutes Spurgeon regarding no if in the Greek and the past tense of parapesontas: C. H. Spurgeon believed those described in Hebrews 6:4-6 were obviously saved but the situation posed was hypothetical. Spurgeon built his whole case on the little word if—“if they shall fall away” (Hebrews 6:6). Spurgeon claimed it had never happened yet. Unfortunately, Spurgeon didn’t know Greek and he was unaware that there is no if in the Greek at all. As a matter of fact those described in Hebrews 6:4-6 had already fallen away. Parapesontas is an aorist participle, which is to be translated either as those who “fell away” or those “having fallen away.” Their fall was a fact. Similar to Spurgeon, Dave Hunt also declares Heb. 6:4-6 is just hypothetical: Clearly those to whom this passage refers are genuine believers. Moreover, it doesn’t say “when they fall away” but that “if they fall away” it would be “impossible” for them to get saved again. The reason why it is impossible to get saved again is explained. First of all, if the death of Christ were not sufficient to keep them saved, then for them to get saved again would require that Christ die again ... and again, every time they needed to be saved once more. Secondly, if Christ’s death is not sufficient to keep one saved, then He is held up to ridicule for having done something so foolish as having procured salvation at infinite cost and then given it to creatures to maintain who are not able to effect their own salvation and certainly can’t maintain it. This would be like committing a fortune to the safekeeping of an infant who would surely lose it. That the falling away is hypothetical is indicated again by verse 9, which says, “But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.” In other words, falling away does not “accompany salvation.” Those who are truly saved can never fall away (italics and ellipsis his). Like others, Hunt seems to forget the Lord’s apostles all fell away at one point. Should we conclude they were not truly saved? Getting back to Kendall, how does he view these passages and still maintain his belief in OSAS? "I simply put forward the view that the “falling away”(Hebrews 6:6) or “sinning wilfully” (Hebrews 10:26) refers not to losing salvation but one’s reward at the judgment seat of Christ."Before we test his OSAS interpretation, let’s also look at Charles Stanley’s understanding: "The writer of Hebrews offers a serious warning. It is a dangerous thing for a believer to turn his back on Christ. To do so is to run the risk of drifting beyond the point of return— not a return to salvation, but a return to fellowship with the Savior."Since the Christians referred to in Heb. 6:4-6 fell away and could not come back, the issue is now narrowed down to the following question: Did the Christians in the book of Hebrews who fell away lose only their rewards, their fellowship or their salvation? Let’s answer by beginning with 6:9: "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way (NASB)."The writer of Hebrews is contrasting two groups of people in 6:4-9: 1.Those who fell away and couldn’t be renewed through repentance; and 2.A group referred to in verse 9 as beloved with a different standing before God—things that accompany salvation. The words better things concerning you also indicate this. Note: verse 9 says salvation, not fellowship or rewards! Heb. 10:26,27 parallel 6:9, in a negative sense, to show salvation is the subject: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (NIV)."Raging fire that will consume the enemies of God can only be the language of no salvation, not lack of rewards or fellowship!This passage also declares that people, not their rewards, will be consumed by this fire, which is for the enemies of God. Regarding God’s enemies, this same description of a person is given elsewhere. Such are clearly without salvation: "For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Rom. 5:10, NIV).Hebrews 10:26-31The Heb. 10:26-31 passage reads: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God "(NIV).Perhaps the following comment can supply missing background information on this passage, as well as 6:4-9, as to why those referred to could not get saved again: Those addressed were Hebrew Christians, who, discouraged and persecuted, (10:32-39) were tempted to return to Judaism. Before being received again into the synagogue they would be publicly required to make the following statements (10:29): that Jesus was not the Son of God; that His blood was rightly shed as that of a common malefactor; and that His miracles were done by the power of the evil one. All this is implied in 10:29. (That such a repudiation would have been insisted on is illustrated by the case of a Hebrew Christian in Germany, who desired to return to the synagogue, but was refused when he desired to hold on to some of the New Testament truths.) Before their conversion they had belonged to the nation which had crucified Christ; to return to the synagogue would be to crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame; it would be the awful sin of apostasy (Heb. 6:6); it would be like the unpardonable sin for which there is no forgiveness, because the one so hardened as to commit it cannot be “renewed unto repentance”; it would be worthy of a worse punishment than that of death (10:28); it would mean incurring the vengeance of the living God. 10:30,31. If one accepts this interpretation and adds to it the following facts about the eternal sin, then he can better understand why those in Heb. 6:4-6 who fell away (parapesontas) could not be renewed by repentance unto salvation as they were enemies of God (10:29), but others, like Peter, who didn’t sin to that degree, could be renewed. An Eternal SinThe context of Jesus’ teaching about eternal sin makes it clear as to what it is: And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” ... But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they were saying, “He has an evil spirit” (Mk. 3:22,29,30, NIV).Jesus taught that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is directly related to saying that the Lord had an evil spirit by which he was driving out demons. Hence, a link seems to exist between eternal sin and insulting the Spirit of grace (10:29). This could possibly explain why the ones referred to in 6:6 could not be renewed unto salvation, that is, they committed eternal sin. dc
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Post by biblethumper on May 4, 2006 19:38:17 GMT -5
Unless I misread the above post, didn't you just post some of Dan Corner's article, word for word, as found here www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htmIf I missed the credit line, please accept my apology. If I did not miss anything, did you just pass off Corner's article without giving notice that this post is HIS? Isn;t that called being a thief, liar and copyright infringer? Call it what you want, but it's not called integrity when you pass off writings as though they were you own. I called another individual on this once, and found that he DID post the credit, so I had to ask public forgiveness. I read and re-read your post and see no credit to Corner or the quote from his book, "The Believer's Conditional Security". That makes you a thief, though you may claim you "forgot" or "it's not that big a deal". of course is wasn;t; until now....because you're caught, Darc, passing off as your own what never was. I stand here now and call you a liar and man without any sense of integrity. I will also see, unless you finally admit to it, whether you did this with the other posts. I knew something was amiss with you. Make any excuse you desire, Darc, yet no longer will I trust a word that proceeds from your mouth, as they most likely will be someone else's, only you taking the credit. Is that an issue? You know it is...and I believe all others know it also. Regardless, that whcih I believed was correct; I call you to repent in the Name of Jesus Christ.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 5, 2006 8:28:01 GMT -5
If everyone looks at the bottom of the article I posted here you'll this dc, but not in bold letters. This stands for Dan Corner. I don't have anything to hide. The truth speaks for itself. The Word doesn't lie and it is the Word that I desire to lift up and exalt, how about you? When do you give much more than your opinion? Now this is just a question for your own reflection. What do you exalt, your own opinions, experiences and other's comments or the Word of God as being the base truth? The proof of this is on these boards.
God will reveal the truth to a surrendered heart to Him and that's the only way.
thumper, I would like you to look at pulling the board out of your own eye before you slam any more people in here. It seems as though your first response to Truth is to try to find personal faults with people and to distract off the issue at hand and then stir up strife and dissention amongst everyone. Focus on the WORD of TRUTH. Your focus is on the giver of the Word, i.e., Dan Corner, myself and others, rather than on the WORD that's given.
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Post by biblethumper on May 5, 2006 8:49:52 GMT -5
Sorry Darc, dc is cop out.I DID note dc and i'll even say I entertained the thought "dan corner".But because of integrity, and because you can;t write your own material yet place an almost invidible "dc" at the end of article, it's clear what you were doing...it is to me, anyhow.When i saw "dc" i believed it "may" have been dan corner, OR "dc" coould have simply been your own mannerism of signature.Thus the reason I posted.It's not about the little "dc", darc.You were dishonest and responded to others using dan vorner, without quoting his work specifically.That's called being a cheeat.If you did that on any test you'd be expelled, Darc.The world know sto do better than that.it;s dishonesty, darc
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Post by biblethumper on May 5, 2006 9:03:09 GMT -5
DARC Post: Eternal Security for the Believer:
Some would argue that is a Christian goes back into sin and falls away from serving the Lord that that person is again LOST and NOT a Chrisian anymore.
Such an argument is faulty, as the following will show:
John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
You see, when you become a Child of God, NO ONE can pluck you from the Mighty Hand of Almighty God!
Not only THAT, but Jesus SPECIFICALLY states that you will NEVER perish.... either never means NEVER or it doesn't!
This is not meant for thumper, it is meant to refute a common misconception and misunderstanding of this passage
John 10:28 is a wonderful and true promise, but only as Jesus meant it to be understood. To discern this, we must examine verse 27 carefully to learn who the pronouns them and they are referring to in verse 28. Together these two verses from the NIV read:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (v.27)
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (v.28)
Verse 27 clearly describes the type of person who will never perish, as mentioned in the next verse! He said his sheep are listeners of his voice, whom he knows and who follow him. The word translated follow is present indicative active in the Greek, which means that it expresses continuous action. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and continue to follow Jesus, he will, indeed, assure us that we will never perish, verse 28. to disregard verse 27 is to twist John 10:28 out of context and distort Jesus' teaching.
The promise of never perishing, as cited in verse 28, does not exist anywhere in the entire Bible for one who would turn away from a dedication to Christ. For example, Paul knew of widows who turned from Christ and started to follow Satan (1Tim. 5:11-15). That apostle knew this could and did happen! (Unlike many in our day, Paul did not say of those widows that they were never really saved to begin with because they turned from their dedication to Christ and started to follow Satan.)
To read into John 10:28 the words, under any circumstance after the words never perish, is to distort the passage. Jesus did not include these words in his promise and neither should we. The description of his sheep shows that the security cited in the next two verses is a conditional one.Upon a recheck, I was correct; no dc, no line of credit ...NOTHING. Simply look above, which is YOUR post, with no credit, no dc, no mention of corner...you took his words and use dthem as your own reply, thus walking in the practice of beinga a thief and a liar and one without integrity. Again, you're a liar. No more calling you on your sin; you refuse to repent. I shake the dust off of my feet and remove myself from responding to you as I see you cannot admit sinful behavior. This is a sorrowful day, darc. I pray God's best for you. I cannot, however, speak with you on any other issue or even on confession...because you have shown disdain for truth by claiming that which was never your own.Posting dc on one article is STILL sneaky and less than honest...you BLATANTLY lied on THIS post and others giving no credit for anything, but again, using Corner as your own. Sinful. That's enough from me now I'm satisfied that the Lord has opened my eyes for a reason. I don't want your head on a platter, or want you to leave or whatever else; what I would have like dis an answer from YOU, without having to copy and paste Corner, and then claiming you gave him credit when you know you did not. Now I will move on. That said, post as you will, say what you will.... but I part company.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 5, 2006 17:42:56 GMT -5
DARC Post: Eternal Security for the Believer:
Some would argue that is a Christian goes back into sin and falls away from serving the Lord that that person is again LOST and NOT a Chrisian anymore.
Such an argument is faulty, as the following will show:
John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
You see, when you become a Child of God, NO ONE can pluck you from the Mighty Hand of Almighty God!
Not only THAT, but Jesus SPECIFICALLY states that you will NEVER perish.... either never means NEVER or it doesn't!
This is not meant for thumper, it is meant to refute a common misconception and misunderstanding of this passage
John 10:28 is a wonderful and true promise, but only as Jesus meant it to be understood. To discern this, we must examine verse 27 carefully to learn who the pronouns them and they are referring to in verse 28. Together these two verses from the NIV read:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (v.27)
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (v.28)
Verse 27 clearly describes the type of person who will never perish, as mentioned in the next verse! He said his sheep are listeners of his voice, whom he knows and who follow him. The word translated follow is present indicative active in the Greek, which means that it expresses continuous action. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and continue to follow Jesus, he will, indeed, assure us that we will never perish, verse 28. to disregard verse 27 is to twist John 10:28 out of context and distort Jesus' teaching.
The promise of never perishing, as cited in verse 28, does not exist anywhere in the entire Bible for one who would turn away from a dedication to Christ. For example, Paul knew of widows who turned from Christ and started to follow Satan (1Tim. 5:11-15). That apostle knew this could and did happen! (Unlike many in our day, Paul did not say of those widows that they were never really saved to begin with because they turned from their dedication to Christ and started to follow Satan.)
To read into John 10:28 the words, under any circumstance after the words never perish, is to distort the passage. Jesus did not include these words in his promise and neither should we. The description of his sheep shows that the security cited in the next two verses is a conditional one.Upon a recheck, I was correct; no dc, no line of credit ...NOTHING. Simply look above, which is YOUR post, with no credit, no dc, no mention of corner...you took his words and use dthem as your own reply, thus walking in the practice of beinga a thief and a liar and one without integrity. Again, you're a liar. No more calling you on your sin; you refuse to repent. I shake the dust off of my feet and remove myself from responding to you as I see you cannot admit sinful behavior. This is a sorrowful day, darc. I pray God's best for you. I cannot, however, speak with you on any other issue or even on confession...because you have shown disdain for truth by claiming that which was never your own.Posting dc on one article is STILL sneaky and less than honest...you BLATANTLY lied on THIS post and others giving no credit for anything, but again, using Corner as your own. Sinful. That's enough from me now I'm satisfied that the Lord has opened my eyes for a reason. I don't want your head on a platter, or want you to leave or whatever else; what I would have like dis an answer from YOU, without having to copy and paste Corner, and then claiming you gave him credit when you know you did not. Now I will move on. That said, post as you will, say what you will.... but I part company. I will say this one time. The way you handle people is an abomination to everyone who calls themselves Christian. Your cheap insults, name calling, rude and outright arrogant attitude to anyone who, in your view, has sinned or stumbled is embarassing to the Christian community. Your very vocal attitude toward brother Dan Corner is the direct cause of my actions. Yes you are the cause of this. Because you tried, with your self righteous attitude toward this brother, to shut him up but I wasn't going to let that impare this brother's clear understanding of the Word to be heard. The end result though is I made the choice to hide Dan's work but not for the reason you are slandering me for. If you want to make a big thing about this to distract off of the main Truth you are more than welcome to, but let the blood be on your hands, because I have let the Truth of God's Word come out in spite of ALL of your attempts to distract. You do nothing but continually distract. You don't use the Word. You use your opinions and feelings and experiences as being more important than the Truth of the Word. But yet you say you've pastored and counseled. I struggle with your whole approach due to these things I've mentioned. I'm sure you are well meaning but that accounts for little if it's not the Word that is being exalted or Jesus for that matter. You are trying to shut me and brother Dan up but you'll never be able snuff out the Light of God's Word. As I have said, I love you in spite of your actions and I continue to forgive you. When have you done this for anyone who disagrees with you?
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Post by biblethumper on May 5, 2006 18:25:44 GMT -5
DARC said: If everyone looks at the bottom of the article I posted here you'll this dc, but not in bold letters. This stands for Dan Corner.I don't have anything to hide. (Thread: Questions For Arminians)
DARC said: The end result though is I made the choice to hide Dan's work but not for the reason you are slandering me for. (Thread: Eternal Security For The Believer)
DARC said: Yes, I have posted some of Dan Corner's material here without saying it. I have no excuse. (Thread: Eternal Security For The Believer)
Darc, you're forgiven.
I do wonder, though, how someone believing you can lose your Salvation could be so sinful?
I mean, here you are WARNING PEOPLE that liars are hell-bound, then you admit to BEING ONE.
Amazing.
That, and I don't care what the Pope says, is a definate symptom of a seared conscience.
You're on dangerous ground, and I exhort you to repent.
I can be called names, told I'm unloving and a thousand other insults.
I was given this understanding on you (see "personal responses to someone" thread) for a reason: I believe (1) either God has exposed you as a reprobate or (2) you are being given the Gift of Repentance which addeth no sorrow.
The choice is your's, darc.
Choose ye this day.
Who will you serve?
Simply repent and change your ways.
Jesus is there, brother.
Dan
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 6, 2006 8:01:40 GMT -5
I spoke with my dear friend and brother in Christ Dan Corner and I let him know everything that is going on. I gave him a link to this message board so he can examine all my words I have spoken. This what I wrote him... QUOTE Brother Dan,
Greetings in the name of Jesus.
First I must confess that I used some of your material on a "message board" in which I was refuting OSAS, which I didn't come out and say it was from you. Brother my heart and conscience are clear in front of the Lord. I didn't do anything out of glory seeking.
In the beginning of this message boarding a few weeks ago I attached links to your articles on Post Trib Rapture on my messages that I would leave for the others to read in a debate about when the rapture would occur. When I did this there came some very heavy persecution toward me because I listen to you. The slander that also went on and continues to go against you and your ministry is of a very wicked sort. They say some very mean things about you and anyone that agrees with you.
One of the main leaders of this slanderous behavior is a man named Dan Lirette and goes by the screen name "biblethumper". He is a staunch OSAS proponent. During his rebuttals toward me when I would use a link to one of your articles he would call you a liar, and many other things.
Brother Dan, please forgive me. I meant no harm to you as this man may is saying, nor was I looking for any credit. To God be all the glory. Amen
This is the link to the message boards>>> openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi
the two threads I have been most active in are "The Rapture" and "Eternal Security For The Believer"
In Jesus, Darc Now I QUOTE him... "Brother Darc:
Greetings in Jesus' name.
Please do NOT be troubled. You need to be commended. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. You are right about Dan L. He emailed us and tried to cause trouble for you. He doesn't know we are your dear friends! Please KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK DOING WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN. You are making the devil and his children mad."My conscience is clean and clear as I stand before my Lord and Savior Jesus. There was never and isn't any glory seeking going on as is being implied. My posts and words will speak for themself. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matt. 7:1-3
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Post by biblethumper on May 6, 2006 9:31:13 GMT -5
I could but will not post Corner's response, though I will hold on file and send to anyone who wants it. I knew you'd write him as soon as I notifed you that I myself had written; I also believed you would seek to brown nose Dan Corner in the attepmt at appeasing your own seared conscience, and I was again correct. Dan Corner was upset at you, Darc...I'm not sure what you said to Mr. Corner in order to appease him and your seared conscience, but the initial reply I have from Corner, along with the posted three statements by YOU show me that you're a hypocrite. And no, Darc, I'm not going to take another week and write rebuttals to you; I am convinced you're false convert. Dan Corner did not speak of you as a "dear friend" or someone who gave you permission to steal his work... as a matter of fact, you yourself said you took it, hid it and you have no excuse; you only changed your tune after writing Corner and though I'm not sure what kick you get out of lying and then seeking appeasement to your conscience for sin, it's apparent you're a reprobate or at best a false convert. I knew, darc, and I believe that if anyone takes even a glimpse at your statements PRE Corner email they will see as I did almost a week ago What boggles my mind is how you can blatantly lie and not be convicted over such evil. I see there is no possible way to see your conscience return to it's sensitive state without a miracle, it appears; thus, like I said, I won't write rebuttals all week, as I know that the only thing a seared conscience would do is seek to debate endlessly on why it's NOT seared; you CANNOT "not" seek to prove to others that you are of God because a seared conscience will never admit it, because it's natuir eis to lie. Hence, I leave with this: DARC said: If everyone looks at the bottom of the article I posted here you'll this dc, but not in bold letters. This stands for Dan Corner.I don't have anything to hide. (Thread: Questions For Arminians) DARC said: The end result though is I made the choice to hide Dan's work but not for the reason you are slandering me for. (Thread: Eternal Security For The Believer) DARC said: Yes, I have posted some of Dan Corner's material here without saying it. I have no excuse. (Thread: Eternal Security For The Believer)
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Post by evanschaible on May 6, 2006 11:25:42 GMT -5
Anyway,
Heb. 4-6 does indeed support conditional security. But the question can one be saved once he is turned unto perdition, is slightly more difficult. I guess I would have to answer that it is totally up to God. I do remember reading somewhere about Esau I think? How he sought repentance with tears and didnt find it.
But to stay in the book of Hebrews, read now 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Pretty clear to me. There remains no more sacrifice for sin.
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Post by biblethumper on May 6, 2006 12:24:46 GMT -5
Amen Evan! That is also my position.
Yes, I am one who does believe in Eternal Security, YET, believe in that "one exception" as found in Hebrews 6:4-6.
You see, my position is that the Scripture does teach "loss of Salvation" through wilful sin and continual backsliding, yet I do not see in the Word where any particular sin is the result of "losing it".
I believe that consistent rebellion leads to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which in turn does not allow for future repentance as Paul tell sthe Romans that repentance is a gift.
Hence, I believe that the Eternal Security teaching is correct in so far as it teaches holiness of lifestyle. (I stated this fact in other posts).
I am persuaded that the only possible way to "lose" one's Salvation is to (a) sin wilfully, (b) refuse to repent, which (c) leads to grieving the Spirit which then (d) causes Him to chasten us, and if we refuse that chastening and if we refuse to repent after the Lord's calling us continually to do so I believe He will, at a point only he Himself knows, (e) leave us eternally as He did Esau.
I do not flow with the Arminian version that teaches "sin once and you need to be re-saved"...that position cannot be supported Scripturally.
The position of being REsaved also cannot be supported.
Hebrews 12:14-17
Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
One who falls into perdition cannot be restored.
The Scripture makes that abundantly clear, though we cannot, as fallen man, determine who has or has not sinned beyond the point of no return.
The Word of God, does, however, give specific traits of a blasphmer, and though we cannot state for certain who is and who is not a blasphemer, we must remove ourselves from their company.
I remember one time in my life when a fallen pastor walked over to me and extended his hand to me.
The Lord's Spirit fell on me on St. George Street, Moncton, NB, Canada... it is a day that is forever in my mind.
When he extended his hand, the Lord's Spirit came on me and I simply said, "Do you believe you can repent?Do you ever wonder why you continually fall into sin?Have you considered that the Spirit of God has sealed you as lost for all eternity?"
It was a sobering moment.
That was aproximately 5-6 years ago.
At present, he is an alcoholic who has beaten his wife and was jailed for it.
This was a pastor of one of the largest Pentecostal churches in this area.
I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints.
I also believe that there is one exception.
Again:
Hebrews 12:14-17
Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
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Post by evanschaible on May 6, 2006 12:47:04 GMT -5
That is one objection I have always made to perseverence of the saints, it is what the name implies, perseverence. We must persevere to the end. If we dont persevere, we fall away. That is my take on that issue.
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Post by Jules on May 6, 2006 15:49:06 GMT -5
Regarding the Calvinistic doctrine called "the perserverance of the saints" (which by the way differs slightly from the unbiblical "once saved, always saved" doctrine). I am studying Hebrews 6 right now. If you are a person who likes to use verses 4-6 to support your view that believers can lose their salvation, do you believe it is possible, with verses 4-6 in mind, to regain one's salvation later? To become saved again? Forgive me if I ask this question then dissapear for a while. I do hope to get back to my other challenge, "Are you pressing logic into the text?". I have not forgotten it. I'm going to ingnore all the blah blah blah going on here in this thread and get back to the question at hand... something I thought of when I was thinking about salvation and assurance was this: i always looked BACK on salvation as my assurance, never forward. I always looked past tense to a single moment in time. It seems as if salvation is always spoken of in the future tense more often than past, but it is spoken of in past tense as far as it being a starting point. We do have to START somewhere, but we must PERSIST and ENDURE of course as well. I do believe in having assurance of my salvation now, but base this on GOd's faithfulness and not my own. Every single verse I've read that speaks to eternal security is about GOd and His ability, His character, etc. Not to say there aren't verses that cleary speak to our responsibility as believers. But when it comes to assurance, it isn't works based or focused on us at all, it is God alone. So even our obedience comes from Him in a sense, and because of that, we perservere and endure to the end, to be presented blameless and spotless before the Throne by Christ, which is HIS job, not our own. (John 6)
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Post by Jules on May 6, 2006 15:51:56 GMT -5
That is one objection I have always made to perseverence of the saints, it is what the name implies, perseverence. We must persevere to the end. If we dont persevere, we fall away. That is my take on that issue. Evan, you misunderstand that term. It is perserverence BECAUSE of the calling, election, and work of grace in our lives. Not of ourselves or our obedience.
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Post by biblethumper on May 6, 2006 21:12:39 GMT -5
as one who does believe in the Perseverance of the Saints I can also give a hearty AMEN! to the fact that our security is conditioned based on holiness....however, as the doctrine states, we WILL BE holy and strive to be holy in all things BECAUSE Perseverance BRINGS Holiness of lifestyle.
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 6, 2006 22:49:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I was going to comment on all the blah blah blah... but anyway,
Bro Dan, from what I am reading of your posts, you DO believe it is possible to actually lose salvation... I am kind of scratching my head here...
This doesn't really warrant a response or anything, I am just confused.
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Post by biblethumper on May 7, 2006 10:06:06 GMT -5
lol..hey Miles.
Yes, loss of Salvation on ONE ground, which is known as the "sin which leadeth unto death" or more commonly known as the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".
I believe the Hyper Arminian View of security is flawed; primarily, I believe it's demonic in that it teaches the Believer he CAN "fall away" etc etc but fails to warn of the very very very likely potential of blasphemy.
This is dangerous in that it realizes the fact of falling, yet ignores to warn of blasphemy, instead substituing with "Come back to Jesus....rededicate your life"
Really?
This is true, you can "rededicate"....
The problem is that the truth of blasphmey is left out.
Esau sold his soul for on bowl of soup.
Think about that.
Esau didn't sell it for a hooker, a lie or a bottle of bud.
ONE sin was the catalyst for God's rejection of Esau.
Here Hyer Arminians are telling people that "if" you backslide you should come back because if you keep backsliding you may die befor eyou repent etc etc"
Bogus.
I think Scripture is clear:
You backslide you're in clear danger of becoming a blasphemer.
No second chance when that takes place, and it takes place througha continual rejection of light.
"Oh, don't worry! You didn't blasphme the Spirit or you'd hate God and wouldn;t want anything to do with Him...so your concern is the proof you have not blasphemed"
Not so.... Esau SOUGHT GOD CAREFULLY (read it again)
He was a BLASPHEMER
I se here that blasphemers:
1- were saved
2- backslid
3- rejecte dthe conviction God gave
4- When it was too late and they had crossed over they STILL SOUGHT GOD...and CAREFULLY
Yes, I believe in perseverance, with the one exception, NOT of backsliding etc etc, but of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
I also believe it's not at all unreachable to commit such a sin, so the Hyper Arminians who accuse Calvinists of teaching a license to sin are wrong.
I may not know or understand the Doctrineof Sanctification THEOLOGICALLY as of yet, but I can stand here and say with conviction that I know that if one is not seperate from the world he's no brother of mine.
I believe not only in perseverance, but I believe in Holiness.
I believe in holiness for the CHRISTIAN because without it, not only will we not see the Lord, but if we reject light long enough, we'll not be able to repent.
Think about that.
Some teach you can backslide and then repent and backslide and repent.
This is primarily a view held by conditional security advocates.
I despise that view.
It;s sickening and disgusting and and an abomination.
As a moderate Calvinist I see such a view as detestable to the Holiness of God.
No one has a righjt to EVER backslide.
IF one backslides, God "may" allow you to return, but He's not obligated; thankfully, He usually does take a fallen one back.
However, I have never known in my PERSONAL life one who has backslid on a continual basis to ever reach a place of holiness again.
I call that blasphemy.
I may be wrong.
I never stick around those types to find out.
Those who teach a "Born Again and again and again" doctrine have a part in sealing backsliders in blasphmey, as teach this garbage allows them to say "If I backslide I'll just repent later".
There may never be a later.
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 7, 2006 13:15:23 GMT -5
Well, I would say that person is probably a false convert, but you are still saying it is possible for a true believer to fall away. How can you reconcile this with the 5 points of Calvinism as your theological basis? Perseverence of the saints is just that, that one CANNOT and WILL NOT ever fall away... ever. Chosen by God and therefore he doesn't have the ability to fall away, because it is God who keeps him. Bro, any exception to the rule in perseverence of the saints totally destroys that whole view. I believe in eternal security in Christ. If you don't ever fall away you will not be lost; you will be saved and you have eternal life. Or as Jesse has said, "don't ever leave Christ and you don't have to worry about losing your salvation". Conditional security believers believe that there are exceptions to perseverence of the saints; falling away. I believe in perseverence of the saints in the sense that one must actually persevere to the end in order for the same to be saved. The exception of coarse is falling away, you would no longer have eternal life operating you. Any exception to the rule of perseverence makes perseverence of none effect.
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Post by biblethumper on May 7, 2006 14:44:50 GMT -5
As I said, I'm a moderate Calvinist, believing that the 5 Points (The T.L.U.I.P) are valid, Biblical and profitable and yet at the same time are not infallible.
Because I do not see Calvinism or ANY man-interpreted doctrine, mine included, as being on-par with Scripture, I have no problem modifying and re-interpreting doctrinal works DERIVED from Scripture so long as Scripture is being sought on the matter.
Perseverance can be held in my view, as I fully hold to it, with the ONE exception.
You see, there are several branch-off's from Calvinism....
I believe that we are born with a nature totally depraved; thus I hold to the Total Depravity of Man.
I, however, believe that God RESTORES lost free-will through Calvary.
That means Adam lost it but Christ regained it and it applies only to those who are Born Again.
Yes, there are many Calvinists who hold to Total Depravity and yet also to the free will of man POST Cross.
Can these be reconciled?
Absolutely!
Being Totally Depraved, God must choose and initiate Salvation; because man CANNOT choose, being totally depraved in the sense of not being able to please God or do good towards God in any way.
When God saves fallen man, who cannot save himself and who cannot choose or "will" himself to Jesus (romans 9; John 1) then the Lord restores free will.
Not as Arminians teach.
But as Adam HAD.
We were all sitting here a half hour ago discussing the irony of the Arminian doctrine that states you can "lose" it and "regain" it 10 times a month.
In fact, moderate Calvinism teaches the opposite.
You lose it, you're done; eternally.
I do not believe that all who "fell" are "false converts".
The Word says nothing of the sort.
Hebrews 6:4-6 states the fact of sinning unto death, and John the Apostle says not to pray for such a man.
The words "if they shall fall away" is literally translated "having FALLEN away"
Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE to restore unto them repentance....
You see?
I detest any false doctrine which states one can backslide and then repent over and over again.
That is exactly what Arminianisn states.
Yes, a good point is that they teach if you DIE backslidden you'll burn; the bad part is that they don;t warn of the further and more significant danger of blaspheming.
The Lord dealt with me on an issue once.
I was going to preach a campmeeting for three days and in prayer He gave me a vision of ME.
I was hiding something in my heart that was visible only to myself and the Lord.
It wasn't somethinhg anyone would say I would go to hell for.
BUT, when God shed light on it I struggled to let it go.
Just before meeting time while walking over to service He blatantly said to me "Repent from this or My Spirit will leave you."
I don't care who says what and who debates what; it was my eternal soul, so I won;t even respond to a debate on God saying something like that; anyone who differs is either blind, or is sent from hell.
God spoke to me and I physcially trembled in fear.
I'll say this, I dropped what He wanted and wept and I'll even say that I needed to seek His Grace for the power to let go of what He commanded I let go of.
It had a strong hold in my life and God was saying, in effect, "No more"
Not long after this, I was at another service and in my heart I was mocking the people and how they worshipped with their flags and what not.....
In my heart I saw these Believers as inferior and even some of them as "false".
Possibly it was correct; but my MOTIVE was wrong.
The Lord specifically dealt with me on the issue, and in effect He again said, "Turn from this NOW."
I again became divinely afraid; the fear of God fell on me as before.
I asked God to take out of my heart whatever it was that was causing impurity, because I knew it was there when He "turned the light on" but I didn't know WHY.
I walked to the pastor at service's end and the Power of God fell on me in conviction.
"Pastor, I'm dying inside."
I will never ever ever forget what he said:
"Dan, you need to die some more."
At that, I began weeping and that entire evening I trembled at the Word.
My then roomate said, "What's happening to you?"
That was a few years back, and the result is here now.
Some say my motives are bad, false, slanderous, etc etc.
Had I have refused His calling those two SPECIFIC times I believe I would have been eternally lost.
It took Esau one time.
It took Saul one time.
No, it DID NOT "progress" into blasphemy.
ONE TIME.
Yes, God is a God of mercy and justice and love and power.... He gives second, third and fourth chances.
He's only PROMISED one chance.
I believe there are SOME who will never receive a second chance if divine leading is given on those rare ocassions and they wilfully rebel against it.
Look also to Rees Howells.
God told the young man if he refused to die at 6PM and be possessed totally and eternally with the Holy Spirit he would have NO SECOND CHANCE.
Yes, Eternal Security is a doctrine which I believe fully; yet, again, with that ONE SINGLE EXCEPTION.
Extreme Calvinsim says "never saved".
Arminians say "Tell them to stop backsliding" (this view is more dangerous than Calvinism's....this view teaches that a perosn CAN backslide and keep returning to God when no such thing is shown to be true in the Word...my Bible tells me it's IMPOSSIBLE to renew them while the Arminian view claims they CAN be)
Sure, this issue is a tough one, yet for myself, in my walk with God, I'm not about to let some devil inspired doctrine to tell me that God "didn;t really say" I'd be lost for all eternity if I refused to obey Him just "once".
Nope.
Not going to happen.
I won;t debate my eternity on someone's devil inspired doctrine.
God said in His Word that if one backslides that ye which are spiritual restore such a one....yet, the one who is BACKSLIDDEN is not PROMISED restoration; God in mercy remembers His Covenant, yet at the same time let us not forget that our sins, if they "come up to Heaven" will receive NO mercy, but we will be cast on a bed of affliction.
For me.... for ME, I know that if I ever turned my back on God's Word, KNOWINGLY and WILFULLY, in the sens eof simply living in sin, I would have no further hope of Salvation.
Possibly some do not share this view; that's ok...it's fully Biblical and I have no other foundation on which to base what I believe in THIS issue other than Scripture itself and the confirming leading of God to my own heart.
Some say that God will "always" be waiting, that"there's hope until you die".
Because of Mercy this is true for some.
However, let's not base the "some" as being God's PROMISE to "all".
God's only promise to the backslider in heart is that there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins to him who sins wilfully.
Mercy triumphs over judgment, yet let us not use this as a promise, because it's not.
I know that i know that i know that I am eternally secure.
No doubt.
I don't fear falling away.
I know when I pass on Jesus will greet me.
I know because He has kept me.
I know because He has given me the Grace to remove things from my life, and His Grace has ALWAYS been MORE than I have needed.
I don't fear hell or condemnation at death.
As Paul, I know that the Lord has, is and will keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day.
Let's not let Extreme and Hyper Calvinistic and Arminisnitic doctrine to cause us to lose sight of the fact that no matter WHAT vein of thought we hold to as Children of God there remaineth no HOPE for the one who tramples underfoot the Blood of the Son of God.
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that if God COMMANDED it He's also given us the GRACE to DO it.
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Post by Steve Noel on May 8, 2006 16:20:07 GMT -5
Chris, There are certain Arminians that believe exactly what you've said. They are known as Reformed Arminians. They are Arminian, but not Wesleyan. They believe you can only lose your salvation through intentional apostosy. In that case you cannot repent again. They believe this is rare, but possible. Here's a link to the exegesis of this passage by Robert Picirilli, A Reformed Arminian theologian. www.freebaptist.net/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=LectureFour&back=ContemporaryResourcesSteve
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 18:03:36 GMT -5
wow... I honestly had no idea anyone corporately believed what I believed on this issue... so that makes us Reformed Arminians in view?
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Post by Steve Noel on May 8, 2006 18:28:40 GMT -5
I just recently found out about this view myself. I read a book called Four Views on Eternal Security. The four positions being defended were Classic Calvinism (Michael S. Horton), Moderate Calvinism (Norman L. Geisler), Reformed Arminianism (Stephen M. Ashby), and Wesleyan Arminianism (J. Stephen Harper). You can see the book at: www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0310234395/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-2357622-2495255#reader-linkFrom what I've read so far it seems that the General Baptists and the Free Will Baptists are the two most prominent Reformed Arminian groups.
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Post by biblethumper on May 8, 2006 18:43:07 GMT -5
And all this time I thought I was the only one with "the revelation" hahahaha kidding... I didn;t know anyone else held the view anywhere; first time I hear of it
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:26:39 GMT -5
I believe in eternal security in Christ. If you don't ever fall away you will not be lost; you will be saved and you have eternal life. Or as Jesse has said, "don't ever leave Christ and you don't have to worry about losing your salvation". Conditional security believers believe that there are exceptions to perseverence of the saints; falling away. I believe in perseverence of the saints in the sense that one must actually persevere to the end in order for the same to be saved. The exception of coarse is falling away, you would no longer have eternal life operating you. Any exception to the rule of perseverence makes perseverence of none effect. Miles, I completely agree. The question is, are you able to perservere in your faith because of you, God, or a combination of both? (synergistic, monergistic?) Who gets "credit" for your perserverence?
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Post by Jules on May 9, 2006 19:28:46 GMT -5
I just recently found out about this view myself. I read a book called Four Views on Eternal Security. The four positions being defended were Classic Calvinism (Michael S. Horton), Moderate Calvinism (Norman L. Geisler), Reformed Arminianism (Stephen M. Ashby), and Wesleyan Arminianism (J. Stephen Harper). You can see the book at: www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0310234395/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-2357622-2495255#reader-linkFrom what I've read so far it seems that the General Baptists and the Free Will Baptists are the two most prominent Reformed Arminian groups. isn't the term "Reformed Arminian" an oxymoron? thanks for the info Steve, I will have to see if I can read those sometime soon....
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Post by Steve Noel on May 10, 2006 15:49:40 GMT -5
I think they use the term Reformed Arminian to distinguish themselves from Wesleyan - Arminianism. From what I've read they do lean alot more toward the Reformed positions than the Wesleyans do. Yet they clearly disagree with T.U.L.I.P. They say that their views are those which Arminius actually held.
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Post by biblethumper on May 10, 2006 20:48:36 GMT -5
The TULIP is something I hold to so far as it stays within Scriptural reason...Calvin himself didn;t believe all of what professed Calvinism today teaches.
Anyway.... blah blah lol
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