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Post by biblethumper on May 19, 2006 17:23:17 GMT -5
This sums up the false convert doctrine versus the "they lost it" doctrine, because it speaks to both persuasions: Traits of a false believer:
by dan lirette Before I begin, let me state herein that I believe this to be a very "touchy" issue, as discerning betwen those who are true to God and those who are NOT is very very very dangerous ground to trad on....however, let us tread these waters with Biblical Convition, that we are CALLED to do such as shall be done herein today.
Also, before I begin, let me state that the following traits are not an exhaustive list...howver, these basic traits are the building blocks of knowing whether or not YOU or someone you KNOW is false or not.
I can hear some protests coming from some; "You don't have the Biblical RIGHT to state who is false or not!".
To these, let me admonish you to fall to your knees in humble worship before God....let me exhort you to seek the LORD in prayr and in fasting....let me lastly ask you to read the following:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Traits of a false believer:
1- A false believer is one who manifests outward acts of wickedness, though he himself believes he is of God:
John 8:
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him , We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil , and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Note thatin verse 41 these ndividuals claim to be OF GOD.
Note in verse 44 Jesus says they are of their father the DEVIL.
Thus, we see that SELF DELUSION (vs 41) mixed with a lifestyle of sin 9vs 44) is trait number 1 of a false believer.
2- A false believer teaches CONTRARY to the Word of God, and when I say CONTRARY, I speak of the FUNDAMNETALS of our Faith (Trinity, Salvation through the Blood ALONE, etc etc):
2 John 1:
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ , hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ , he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Thus, from vs 9 we see that those who do not hold to the essentials of the faith plain and simply do NOT have God; vs 10 commands that we receive NO MAN into our homes who bring any other doctrine; vs 11 tells us that if we DO allow ourslves to compromise with those who hold NOT to the essentials of the Faith we've PARTAKEN of their sins.
We see from the above that a false belieer believes FALSELY; that they may CLAIM to know and have Jesus yet in reality, because of their theology, they are lost.
We see this in the Mormon Church ; these people APPEAR outwardly righteous and yet INWARDLY they are full of dead men's bons....why? Because they bring not the doctrine of Christ as revealed exclusively in the Word of God through Apostolic Teaching.
LOOKING the part doesn't neccessarily mean you've been invited to the play! Only those whose names are written down in the Lamb's Book of Life have a right to the TREE of Life!
3- A false believer exudes consistent LOVE OF FIRST PLACE, a refusal to acknowledge and to receive those in athority/leadership and is one who goes about speaking evil of those whom God has made righteous and forbids the Children of God to RECEIVE those whom God has set in authority/leadership in the Body of Christ with threats of ex-communication or other such manipulative methods:
3 John 1:
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words : and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
Thus, we see that a false believer if filled with arrogant pride and feels tat he alone is the "first place man" that God has set in the Church to "straighten it out"...we see that this type of individual is one who speaks evil of those wo are of God and threatens the Saints who dare receive the Brethren....
4- A false believer is one who claims great things for God and yet has nothing more than an empty testimony that only APPEARS sensational:
Jude:
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water , carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit , twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea , foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
A false believer carries a great many "testimonies" of how "God uses me"....he or sh will oftn have great stories of the miraculous and how they have "seen angls" and "had visions" etc etc.....when it comes time to "produce the goods" they have nothing but an empty shell-story.
Why?
Because all that these false believers have is a story....nothing in their lives is a REALITY.
EMPTY clouds...WITHOUT water.
These people do not HAVE the Holy Spirit.....what they DO HAVE is an UNholy spirit.
5- A false believer is one who claims comittment to Jesus Christ and His Word and yet secretly holds on to personal sins which he/she has NO intention of mortifying:
1 John 3:
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer : and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Note the words love and hate.....
Love and hate are UNseen.....
Yes, I believe that both love and hate are manifested in our DEEDS, yet the two in and of themselves are UNseen.
I cannot SEE whether or not you have a secret hatred towards me or any other individual.
I cannot SEE whether or not you have secret desire to harm anther, yet because of your fear of retribution you refrain....however, your hatred is still there...it's simply not ACTED upon for reasons unknown.
A false believer, then, is one who holds to secret sin, UNseen sin, and yet claims to know and love God when Scripture makes it ABUNDANTLY clear (see above example) that such a one as this is NOT a true believer at all.
Ther are Arminian false brethren as well as Calvinistic false brethren....there are false brethren in every denomination!
Let us exaine OURSELVES, to see whether WE be in the Faith
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 29, 2006 15:32:05 GMT -5
by dan lirette This sums up the false convert doctrine versus the "they lost it" doctrine, because it speaks to both persuasions:
Traits of a false believer:
by dan lirette
Before I begin, let me state herein that I believe this to be a very "touchy" issue, as discerning betwen those who are true to God and those who are NOT is very very very dangerous ground to trad on....however, let us tread these waters with Biblical Convition, that we are CALLED to do such as shall be done herein today.
Also, before I begin, let me state that the following traits are not an exhaustive list...howver, these basic traits are the building blocks of knowing whether or not YOU or someone you KNOW is false or not.
I can hear some protests coming from some; "You don't have the Biblical RIGHT to state who is false or not!".
To these, let me admonish you to fall to your knees in humble worship before God....let me exhort you to seek the LORD in prayr and in fasting....let me lastly ask you to read the following:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
I am not sure what grounds you are supposing here because Jesus doesn't mention anything of a "RIGHT to state who is false or not" here in John 7:24 . He is merely rebuking the Jews for their inconsistency in their judging. Verses 21-23 show the inconsistency of their judging. They were judging Jesus for the same basic thing they did; "working" on the Sabbath.
Traits of a false believer:
1- A false believer is one who manifests outward acts of wickedness, though he himself believes he is of God:
John 8:
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him , We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil , and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Note thatin verse 41 these ndividuals claim to be OF GOD.
Note in verse 44 Jesus says they are of their father the DEVIL.
Thus, we see that SELF DELUSION (vs 41) mixed with a lifestyle of sin 9vs 44) is trait number 1 of a false believer.
Yes, they had a false profession of who they belonged to because this passage is of Jesus pointing out to them they had not yet come to faith in God because of their lack of understanding Him. (Verses 43-44) This is not a matter of so called false believers versus "they lost it" because they had not yet come to Him. They were still clearly children of the Devil. And this does not take away from the truth of the Prodigal Son that shows he did lose it from his sinful living and was made alive again through repentance and God's forgiveness.(Luke 15:11-32) Verse 47 clearly states that they didn't belong and had never belonged to God.
2- A false believer teaches CONTRARY to the Word of God, and when I say CONTRARY, I speak of the FUNd**nETALS of our Faith (Trinity, Salvation through the Blood ALONE, etc etc):
2 John 1:
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ , hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ , he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Thus, from vs 9 we see that those who do not hold to the essentials of the faith plain and simply do NOT have God; vs 10 commands that we receive NO MAN into our homes who bring any other doctrine; vs 11 tells us that if we DO allow ourslves to compromise with those who hold NOT to the essentials of the Faith we've PARTAKEN of their sins.
I've high-lighted and underlined so as to make a point. V.9 follows suite with the Parable of the Sower and the Prodigal Son in that both say what John is saying here; both started out in faith. just as the man in verse 9 did. You can't "abideth not" if you were(n't) first abiding. To say you need to abide in something means you've already started in it. Kind of like a phone call. The only way you can abide in it is if you have first begun in it. The only way that you won't have the communication is if and when you stop or don't abide in it. It doesn't mean you never had the phone conversation, it simply means, by your choice, you no longer have it. It took you stopping the conversation and hanging up for it to end and that is the way it is with us and God. We are in a relationship with God, by faith in Jesus and if we don't abide in Him (John 15) then we will wither and die and when this happens then we no longer have God. We've given up on Him, but God is always there holding out His covenant to us.
We see from the above that a false belieer believes FALSELY; that they may CLAIM to know and have Jesus yet in reality, because of their theology, they are lost.
We see this in the Mormon Church ; these people APPEAR outwardly righteous and yet INWARDLY they are full of dead men's bons....why? Because they bring not the doctrine of Christ as revealed exclusively in the Word of God through Apostolic Teaching.
LOOKING the part doesn't neccessarily mean you've been invited to the play! Only those whose names are written down in the Lamb's Book of Life have a right to the TREE of Life! On the condition that you abide in Christ then you'll have God, but if you don't you won't.
3- A false believer exudes consistent LOVE OF FIRST PLACE, a refusal to acknowledge and to receive those in athority/leadership and is one who goes about speaking evil of those whom God has made righteous and forbids the Children of God to RECEIVE those whom God has set in authority/leadership in the Body of Christ with threats of ex-communication or other such manipulative methods:
3 John 1:
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words : and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
Thus, we see that a false believer if filled with arrogant pride and feels tat he alone is the "first place man" that God has set in the Church to "straighten it out"...we see that this type of individual is one who speaks evil of those wo are of God and threatens the Saints who dare receive the Brethren....
It seems clear by his behavior and in light of 1John 2:29 and 1John 3:10 that this man is clearly a child of the Devil and John uses him as an example to say what not to do (v11) as children of God. John doesn't address Diotrephes as a believer or a brother as he did with Gaius and Demetrius, instead as a clear sign showing us how we'll know those of God and those not of God. (v11)
4- A false believer is one who claims great things for God and yet has nothing more than an empty testimony that only APPEARS sensational:
Jude:
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water , carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit , twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea , foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
(v4) speaks of them as "ungodly men" and then (v8) says "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities." then (vv10-11) say "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." and (v16) says also "These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage." These men are not false converts they are merely children of the Devil.
A false believer carries a great many "testimonies" of how "God uses me"....he or sh will oftn have great stories of the miraculous and how they have "seen angls" and "had visions" etc etc.....when it comes time to "produce the goods" they have nothing but an empty shell-story.
Why?
Because all that these false believers have is a story....nothing in their lives is a REALITY.
EMPTY clouds...WITHOUT water.
These people do not HAVE the Holy Spirit.....what they DO HAVE is an UNholy spirit.
5- A false believer is one who claims comittment to Jesus Christ and His Word and yet secretly holds on to personal sins which he/she has NO intention of mortifying:
1 John 3:
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer : and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Note the words love and hate.....
Love and hate are UNseen.....
Yes, I believe that both love and hate are manifested in our DEEDS, yet the two in and of themselves are UNseen.
Dan, 1 Cor 13: 4-7 says: "Charity (love) suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." You can say hate acts the opposite of these.
I cannot SEE whether or not you have a secret hatred towards me or any other individual.
I cannot SEE whether or not you have secret desire to harm another, yet because of your fear of retribution you refrain....however, your hatred is still there...it's simply not ACTED upon for reasons unknown.
A false believer, then, is one who holds to secret sin, UNseen sin, and yet claims to know and love God when Scripture makes it ABUNDANTLY clear (see above example) that such a one as this is NOT a true believer at all.
Ther are Arminian false brethren as well as Calvinistic false brethren....there are false brethren in every denomination!
Let us exaine OURSELVES, to see whether WE be in the Faith
The issue is between "false brethren versus false converts" False brethren are not converts, they are deceivers, children of the devil but this does not mean that the truth of Luke 15:11-32 isn't true nor does it mean that those who believed for awhile but then fell away in Mt. 13; Luke 8 or Mark 4 aren't true either. There are many examples in the Scriptures of those who once believed had saving faith but then turned away and became lost again. There is no disputing this truth from Scripture because Scripture is solid on the matter as I have shown on the "Eternal Security for the Believer" thread. There is no such thing as a "false convert" that's impossible. That's like saying you're a false dad or false mother. NO. you either are one or you're not one. You either are converted or you are not.
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Post by biblethumper on May 29, 2006 16:25:48 GMT -5
Ok, points well taken, Darc....
However, both the arminian view and the calvinistic view attain to holiness in this article ....would you agree?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 5, 2006 18:29:29 GMT -5
Dan, You know my stand and because of this I am surprised that you would think that I would say Calvinism directs or teaches anyone to try to attain holiness. Just the opposite. I believe Calvinism to be nothing more than a theory based on pretexted verses from God's Holy Writ that allows and teaches a person to believe that after a moment of faith, they become a child of God and will always be a child of God and no matter what kind of sin they go back into they can never lose their salvation, among other things. This teaching is diametrically apposed to what the Bible says. So no, I wouldn't agree with your statement and I believe this to follows suite with everything else that I've stated to this point on the matter. I would be more than willing to reason with you again on the issue though Dan.
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Post by evanschaible on Jun 5, 2006 18:38:36 GMT -5
DARC,
Spurgeon very staunchly taught holiness, and very staunchly taught calvinism. I was a calvinist and I believed in a immature view of Christian Perfection. Now that I have "seen the truth" you could say, I have some to a much fuller understanding of sanctification, and redemption.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 5, 2006 18:44:35 GMT -5
Darc....I want to make thsi clear one last time:
My uncle is the example I use (though I could others):
John Peck, Moncton, NB, has served God for over 35 years and is a 5 point Calvinist.
He has never went back into sin and has never ever backslid.
He's a cessasionist calvinist in doctrine, darc.
explain to me how calvinism teaches a license to sin and yet my uncle, 35 years and counting, has never fallen?
Explain becaus eyou have avoided this each time I have mentioned him.
He's a real person and a real pastor with a real holiness message.
Blessings.
Dan
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 5, 2006 19:50:00 GMT -5
Dan, I applaud your uncle. Praise the Lord for his continuing in the faith for so many years. I am thankful that you share this about him, however it does not detract from the teaching that says "Once a child of God always a child of God, once a son always a son and I can never lose my salvation" is a wide open invitation to sin as you please because after all God would never kick you out of His Kingdom just because you sinned and rejected Him! God is too loving for that to happen, after all you're His son! Don't worry if you sin and continue to live in sin, you'll just lose your rewards and if you continue in sin long enough maybe God will just kill you and take you home to a home of paradise and remove you from your misery! I can name well known TV and radio, 5 point Calvinist teachers that teach this all day long if you want me to. I have recordings of them preaching messages just like this. For example: "You can't out sin the grace of God" Charles Stanley quote.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 5, 2006 20:50:38 GMT -5
Darc... the Calvinistic view is not one of a lisense to sin; read CALVIN and show me where he claims what you have here?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 6, 2006 21:01:05 GMT -5
Dan, What I wrote is part of the doctrinal stance of Calvinism.
"Once a child of God always a child of God, once a son always a son and I can never lose my salvation" is a wide open invitation to sin as you please because after all God would never kick you out of His Kingdom just because you sinned and rejected Him! God is too loving for that to happen, after all you're His son! Don't worry if you sin and continue to live in sin, you'll just lose your rewards and if you continue in sin long enough maybe God will just kill you and take you home to a home of paradise and remove you from your misery!
I don't need to study Calvin to see what his vile teaching has produced in the church. It is one of the main reasons why we have Christians living like the devil thinking they're headed for heaven. His theory teaching is the reason why all the popular Calvinistic "pastors" on TV and radio like Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, Dave Hunt, the "Bible Answer Man", John Ankerberg and on and on preach the security in sin message I just wrote about in the second paragraph. I am not attacking them though just their wicked doctrine.
The lack of holiness in the church is directly linked back to the 5 points of Calvinism teaching. To say I can never lose my salvation is a license for immorality. This says; no matter what sin you fall into and even if I flat out deny Him and stop living for Him I'll still be allowed into paradise, because after all I can never lose my salvation. When there is no fear of losing your salvation then comes the attitude 'well if that's true then it must be OK if I have sex with my girlfriend because God won't condemn me from sex outside of marriage because I'm a child of God' or people just stop living holy lives because, 'what's the purpose, I mean why should I make myself abstain from sinful desires and stop enjoying life?" "Why should I live a life of affliction rather than enjoy a moment of sexual fun after all God won't send me to Hell for this I've been told I will never lose my salvation."
These questions (brought over from the "can you lose your salvation (for rebecca01)" from Doc H. (below) were an attempt to try and trap me into saying I never sin. However these kinds of questions prove my point.
So, you are ALWAYS PURE and SINLESS in THOUGHT, WORD and DEED?
If that is the case then you no longer require Jesus Christ to be your advocate before the Father. Right?
My point is; we know we trip and fall into sin and there needs to be confession and repentance of that sin, on our part, to stay in fellowship with God and also to maintain our salvation. Thankfully we have an Advocate in Jesus and upon confession and repentance we get forgiven of that sin. Praise the Lord Jesus! But if we don't confess and repent then we can lose our salvation. The condition of 1 John 1:9 has to be met before we are forgiven and on the condition we don't we aren't just automatically forgiven. And if we aren't forgiven of our sin then we WILL end up in hell. The bible doesn't speak around this truth.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 6, 2006 21:05:12 GMT -5
Darc... that is the point; the Genuine Believer WILL meet the condition of 1 John 1:9...and if not, well.... either the person was never saved or is a Hebrews 6:4-6 case
Lastly, you said that what you wrote IS a doctrinal part of Calvinism; can you please show us where Calvin taught any of this?
No, darc....don;t show me those who claim Calvinism; show me CALVIN teaching sin as a license
Otherwise, your argument is flawed.
you claim Calvin said this and that and yet haven;t ONCE quoted Calvin.
Odd, don;t you think?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 6, 2006 21:19:04 GMT -5
Darc... that is the point; the Genuine Believer WILL meet the condition of 1 John 1:9...and if not, well.... either the person was never saved or is a Hebrews 6:4-6 case Lastly, you said that what you wrote IS a doctrinal part of Calvinism; can you please show us where Calvin taught any of this? No, darc....don;t show me those who claim Calvinism; show me CALVIN teaching sin as a license Otherwise, your argument is flawed. you claim Calvin said this and that and yet haven;t ONCE quoted Calvin. Odd, don;t you think? brother I will get around to that about Calvin, but the fact that I haven't yet doesn't mean my argument is flawed. That would be like saying because you haven't actually seen Jesus He doesn't really exist. That is ridiculous. The evidence points out the truth. How do I know Jesus and God are real? One way is by the evidence of changed lives. People being set free from the bondage of sin for example! The evidence speaks loud enough without KNOWING Calvin.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 6, 2006 21:36:59 GMT -5
Nice cop out, Darc...
And we know Jesus FIRST through His Word; hence, we shouldn;t be taking someone's word for it when they talk about Jesus; taht is, UNLESS we ourselves verify what we hear by going to the source.
Jesus heals; not because I was told that....He heals because He is the Healer...
How do I know?
The WORD is that FINAL authority on all things, Darc.
So...
Again...
Quote Calvin FROM his own works; not from someone who you "heard" it from.
Your argument is 100% invalid because your foundation on calvinism has not come FROM Calvin.
Hence, when I say Calvinism teaches Holiness my words are correct.
Why?
I read and re-read and re-read the Institutes of John Calvin.
I didn;t need to run to an Arminian or even another Calvinist on the issue.
Show Calvinism is false by using calvin's writings....
If you were an investigative reporter you'd be fired for lack of integrity in reporting fact from fiction.
Even the WORLD uses a higher standard than you have here, Darc.
That's sad.
No offence, but if the world is more honest in reporting then am I to believe what YOU say when you say things which you have never learned yourself from the SOURCE?
What a shame, Darc, to believe something based on NOT studying the works of Calvin.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 7, 2006 7:09:41 GMT -5
We both understand that we are speaking of two totally different individuals here correct.
I have the example of calvinists to show me what calvinism is.
We have examples, Christians, that show Who Jesus is also. I am not saying this is the ONLY way we can know who Jesus is but this is a clear example, by one's testimony, how we live our life is a way of which the world will know Jesus (1 Peter and many other scriptures speak of this truth)
The fact is that we emulate who it is we are following 1 John 3 speaks this truth quote: 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." . If we are of God we will do what is righteous and if we are following the devil we will do what is sinful.
It's called evidence Dan. Are you now discounting all evidence? Please let it lay Dan.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 7, 2006 7:51:31 GMT -5
Darc, could I also not say that I have examples of Arminians to show me why Arminianism is a doctrine of devils?
Yes I could also use your very argument to "prove" that Arminians teach a works-gospel...
BUT, I know better...
There are REAL Brethren in the arminian camp (Jesse, Ravenhill, Miles, my mom....) but then there are false ones, such as Dan Corner, Kenneth Copeland, etc etc....
Who will I go to in order to KNOW?
Not the EXAMPLE; the example comes last.
I will go to the source; Arminius himself.
If I look to Dan Corner as an example of a "true Arminian" then guess what? I have to throw out the Salvation of some dear brothers and claim they teach a false gospel.
I won;t do something like that, because it's not fair and not proper to do such.
Just because one Calvinist claims you can go to Heaven while living in wickedness it does NOT "prove" that calvinism is false.
Why?
Because Calvin didn't teach it and neither do the majority of Calvinists.
You'd be hard pressed to come up with more hyper calvinistic doctrine than what what Calvin actually taught.
The counterfeit doens't negate the true, darc.
Again, use Calvin rather than "examples" because you have actually given NOT ONE example of a well known Calvinist anywhere teaching that we have a license to sin.
You have SAID that Calvinism teache sthis, but you have shown no one who actually does.
I'm sure if you dug hard enough you'd find something; but you'd be hardpressed...why? Because we don't teach it.
Plus, I'm a moderate Reformed Believer, meaning I DO teach you can lose your salvation in ONE instance; through wilful sin which leads to the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
So, as a moderate Calvinist, believing that consistent unholiness will cause one to lose of the Grace of God and perish in hell...you believe that those who teach like I do claim a license to sin?
You're the one teaching a "re-saved" doctrine, darc....so again, you're the one claiming that a CONSISTENT wicked person can just "repent" and "keep getting saved".
I don't believe that doctrine, because it gives the wicked an excuse to continue in sin....
Go out tonight, get drunk and fornicate and repent all over again so I can go to Heaven.
You said this yourself.
Though many do not agree with Calvinism, I'm sure they'd side with the individual NOT claiming you can keep sinning and then keep "getting saved".
That is why I cannot understand you, darc; you teach that a wicked man can remain wicked as long as he doesn't physcially die, because he can just "keep repenting".
Heathens would love that doctrine, because it allows fornicators and drunkards and idolaters to practice sin without fearing the wrath of God....
I believe that without holiness darc, in THIS life, no man shall see the Lord.
So, again, show me where Calvin himself even taught what you teach.... because Calvin's own exegetical interpretations would never claim the license you give to believers.
You are teaching that you can continually crucify the Son of God afresh, putting Him to open shame (Hebrews 6:4-6)
So... gimme some Calvin (Holiness) not Corner (Unholiness)
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 7, 2006 9:30:31 GMT -5
You continually do this. Always with the straw man garbage! Do you not see? You are making blanket statements about me, slandering me by saying:
"You're the one teaching a "re-saved" doctrine, darc....so again, you're the one claiming that a CONSISTENT wicked person can just "repent" and "keep getting saved". I don't believe that doctrine, because it gives the wicked an excuse to continue in sin.... Go out tonight, get drunk and fornicate and repent all over again so I can go to Heaven. You said this yourself."
I have not and will never say this " that a CONSISTENT wicked person can just "repent" and "keep getting saved". You are twisting the truth. Stop twisting my words please.
By your comments just now you are rejecting Truth from God's Word.
What part of this that I said, using God's word as my base do you reject Dan? and why? This seems to be a common theme with you. I give statements backed by the truth of God's Word and you ignore or reject the truth and then through up more straw men.
This is sound teaching...We have examples, Christians, that show Who Jesus is also. I am not saying this is the ONLY way we can know who Jesus is but this is a clear example, by one's testimony, how we live our life is a way of which the world will know Jesus (1 Peter and many other scriptures speak of this truth)
The fact is that we emulate who it is we are following 1 John 3 speaks this truth quote: 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." . If we are of God we will do what is righteous and if we are following the devil we will do what is sinful. It seems you have rejected this. Why?
I know what Calvin's teaching says and I SEE the results of it. Please accept this. I WILL expound on him more later. But please stop rejecting the truth of God's Word. These are simple truths (1 Peter and 1 John 3 that speak of the outward signs being the clear signs of what is on the inside) and yet you want to hold to your opinion. I used these scriptures with the hope that it would show what I speak about using examples of someone who follows someone else's teaching would be like seeing the actual teacher. This is the basic truth of these passages.
I absolutely reject your accussation that I teach "that a CONSISTENT wicked person can just "repent" and "keep getting saved". I have not said this. You have twisted what I've said again.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 7, 2006 9:37:05 GMT -5
You blatantly stated that a person can fall, lose salvation, fall, lose salvation etc etc.... such a doctrine is ONLY consistent with someone who keeps backsliding....2+2 equals 4, darc.
by saying a person can get "re saved" over and over again implies that the person getting "re saved" lost it through sinning and had to "get it back".
YOU are the one who posted Dan Corner's argument on the issue, which states that a person can KEEP ON getting saved.
We all read it Darc.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 7, 2006 10:05:50 GMT -5
You blatantly stated that a person can fall, lose salvation, fall, lose salvation etc etc.... such a doctrine is ONLY consistent with someone who keeps backsliding....2+2 equals 4, darc. by saying a person can get "re saved" over and over again implies that the person getting "re saved" lost it through sinning and had to "get it back". YOU are the one who posted Dan Corner's argument on the issue, which states that a person can KEEP ON getting saved. We all read it Darc. Please listen to me Dan. What you are NOW saying is different from your last statements. However I disagree with you in that if you check what you said was " that a person can fall, lose salvation, fall, lose salvation etc etc...." I haven't said this. I have said what the scriptures speak as truth and that is Luke 15:11-32 and King David ARE clear examples of those who fell away (lost their salvation) but DID repent and become regenerated again. The Prodigal Son example couldn't be any clearer than that. Also the examples of ALL the disciples falling away and then obviously repenting, coming back to the Lord Jesus speak loud and clear to this truth. They fell away in fear and rejected Him and it took repenting of that sin to come back to Him. Rev. 21:8 is very clear that the "fearful shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Jesus is very clear that if we deny Him He WILL deny us. So they were lost in their sin headed for hell and HAD TO REPENT to come back alive again. This is scriptural truth.
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 7, 2006 10:10:59 GMT -5
I understand you claim you must repent to get "re saved"... I know thsi is what you are saying darc.
BUT, in order to repent and get "re saved" you HAVE TO be in sin.
Thus, 2 plus 2 equals 4.
You teach a believer can sin sin sin and sin some more and then get saved, saved, saved and saved some more.
odd
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 7, 2006 10:19:07 GMT -5
Quote: in order to repent and get "re saved" you HAVE TO be in sin.
This truth. But this doesn't say you can keep on sinning and get resaved etc. That IS a twisted wickedness that goes against what I know to be true of Hebrews 10:26 and many other scriptures and the command to be holy. To say one truth exists does not negate the other as you imply. Both truth DO exist in God's Word. Why is that so hard to understand?
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Post by biblethumper on Jun 7, 2006 10:21:19 GMT -5
Darc... fair enough.... it appeared you were saying this, so hence I asked.
BUT...I don;t see how they can co exist.
Share some more?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 8, 2006 7:17:07 GMT -5
Nice cop out, Darc... And we know Jesus FIRST through His Word; hence, we shouldn;t be taking someone's word for it when they talk about Jesus; taht is, UNLESS we ourselves verify what we hear by going to the source. Jesus heals; not because I was told that....He heals because He is the Healer... How do I know? The WORD is that FINAL authority on all things, Darc. So... Again... Quote Calvin FROM his own works; not from someone who you "heard" it from. Your argument is 100% invalid because your foundation on calvinism has not come FROM Calvin. Hence, when I say Calvinism teaches Holiness my words are correct. Why? I read and re-read and re-read the Institutes of John Calvin. I didn;t need to run to an Arminian or even another Calvinist on the issue. Show Calvinism is false by using calvin's writings.... If you were an investigative reporter you'd be fired for lack of integrity in reporting fact from fiction. Even the WORLD uses a higher standard than you have here, Darc. That's sad. No offence, but if the world is more honest in reporting then am I to believe what YOU say when you say things which you have never learned yourself from the SOURCE? What a shame, Darc, to believe something based on NOT studying the works of Calvin. Dan, I first need to clear the air with you before I can go another step. I need to point out a contradiction to you. You've been on me about using the examples of Calvinists as not being good enough to prove Calvin's teachings are flawed and in error. Yet at the same time you use you uncle to prove Calvinism as a teaching that does not teach a lisence for immorality. Let's hold to one standard. If what you want me to do is good for me, then it also should be good practice for you. Now my question for you is which way will it be, using people as examples or not? Quote by Dan: Darc....I want to make thsi clear one last time:
My uncle is the example I use (though I could others):
John Peck, Moncton, NB, has served God for over 35 years and is a 5 point Calvinist.
He has never went back into sin and has never ever backslid.
He's a cessasionist calvinist in doctrine, darc.
explain to me how calvinism teaches a license to sin and yet my uncle, 35 years and counting, has never fallen?
Explain becaus eyou have avoided this each time I have mentioned him.
He's a real person and a real pastor with a real holiness message.
Blessings.
Dan
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