|
Post by josh on May 24, 2006 0:50:17 GMT -5
Here is another question: Do you have to be baptised to be saved?
Opinions please
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 24, 2006 6:50:13 GMT -5
Here is another question: Do you have to be baptised to be saved? Opinions please My opinion is what the scripture tells us. As Jesus and the two others hung on their crosses about ready to die this is what was said. "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:41-43This is the best clear cut Word that says NO, water baptisim is not needed to be saved. By FAITH in JESUS alone.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on May 24, 2006 8:21:59 GMT -5
Here is an article I ran across some time ago.
Is Baptism required for salvation? - February 24, 2002
It is often questioned, "Is baptism required for salvation?" Indeed, it seems to be a questioned that has haunted Christians for 2,000 years, and it is a question that must be addressed. However, this question is not to receive a simple yes or no answer. For to answer yes, or to answer no, is improper. The question in itself, is a trick question.
For Ephesians 2:8 tells us "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God". No work will save us, it is faith that saves us. You do not experience regeneration simply because you have been baptized in water, or have received circumcision (depending under which testament we talk of.) Since the dawn of time, it has always been salvation by grace through faith.
However, one is required to be obedient. They must have a faith that works (James 2). As Christ said, "Not everone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter" (Matthew 7:21). We must be doers of the word, or as the apostle says, we delude ourselves (James 1:22). The things we are commanded, are the things we are to be doers of.
So, the real question that is being asked when one ponders if baptism is required is this: "Do I really have to be obedient to baptism?" This is the heart of the question.
One thing that we must realize, is baptism is not some sort of option, as just some sort of "outward symbol of an inward grace that is real in the life of that person, a public confession." While this is true, it is not the end of the road concerning the truths of baptism. It is a command, not an option. Christ commanded in the great commission, that the disciples "go therefor and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19). If folks are commanded to baptize others, that means there are going to have to be folks who are to be baptized. What good is a baptizer, without a baptizee?
Peter in his sermon to Jerusalem commanded folks to be baptized (Acts 2:38). Folks who had received John's baptism of repentance in Acts 19:3-4 were led by Paul to receive the baptism of Christ (verse 5), which is to be baptized into his death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), into the body of Christ, into the community of the Church, entering into the covenant of God- water baptism being the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament cicumcision (Col 2:4-12).
Those who were of the baptism of John had to receive the baptism of Christ, in order to walk in obedience. And we know that if we do not walk in obedience to God, that we are living in sin, living in rebellion, and living in darkness. Such persons will be cast into the lake of fire which burns forever.
But what of the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, yet Christ said that he would be with Christ in paradise (Luke 23:43). However, his lack of baptism does not mean he was disobedient to the faith. First of all, not all of the great comission had been given. In prior commissions of Christ to the 12, and then to the 70 (read Luke 9-10), Christ never commanded that people be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit, as commanded in Matthew 28:19, although it does seem Christ had his disciples baptizing others (John 3:26), and it does seem Christ was talking of baptism in John 3:5.
Also, we can say that the thief on the cross might have had the desire to be baptized in water, however, was unable. Was he being disobedient? No. He was not neglecting baptism as is the habit of some, but was simply unable. Surely though, this man was living the crucified life!
Also, consider Luke 22:19 where Christ says, "This is my body which is given for you; do this in rememberance of Me." Surely, this thief on the cross did not partake of communion, did he? Yet, it is COMMANDED by Christ that folks partake of it. I've yet to ever see anybody argue that one must take at least one communion, otherwise, they go to hell.
So, what can we learn from all this? Those who neglect the commands of Christ, and refuse baptism, and yes, set it in their heart to not receive communion, or any other command of Christ, these are the ones who will not be saved in the end. If I were to neglect baptism, and even refuse it, I will go to hell. Likewise, if I were to neglect the command to take communion, and refuse to ever take it, and likewise, any other command of God that I would neglect, and set it in my heart not to be obedient too, I would go to hell.
The bottom issue, will you be obedient?
Article by Jimmy Humphrey - jimmy@christiansteps.com
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on May 24, 2006 8:24:02 GMT -5
Ephesian 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on May 24, 2006 8:26:46 GMT -5
I once ran into a guy that said, "I will not be baptized" I believe in Jesus and love him, but I will not be baptized because I hate they way the church emphases it (he used to go to a Church of Christ). I told him flat out he would go to hell for rebellion. I believe that.
One of the main scriptures that has to be tackled in this issue is:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on May 24, 2006 8:28:57 GMT -5
Josh, the Salvation Army doesn;t water baptize.... many aren't aware of that, but it's a fact...the SA has no water baptism.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on May 24, 2006 8:36:45 GMT -5
What do they say about baptism then?
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on May 24, 2006 8:47:49 GMT -5
Hmm... I am not sure what to think. I was just thinking about those that sprinkle.. I don't think that is what they did in scripture, but I am not convinced they are going to hell.
I read a book not too long ago that showed the different early church beliefs (after the apostles). It shared some of their views on the subject.
From what the author showed, they believed it was a little more than just an outward showing, very important. They were not legalistic about it though. If a person was converted in prison or something and had no way of being baptized they believed God would be just. When talking about those in that situation that were killed for the faith, they would say they were baptized in their own blood.
I assume it may be a heart matter? If a person defiantly says, "I will not obey Christ" he obviously isn't born again, which was the case in the person I was referring to earlier. I still don't understand how you could say that baptism wasn't commanded.
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on May 24, 2006 9:41:55 GMT -5
I once ran into a guy that said, "I will not be baptized" I believe in Jesus and love him, but I will not be baptized because I hate they way the church emphases it (he used to go to a Church of Christ). I told him flat out he would go to hell for rebellion. I believe that. One of the main scriptures that has to be tackled in this issue is: 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Josh, If you have the opportunity keep working on this guy, do it to it Bro. I can see where people would have issues with Water Baptism after being in a C&C Church. I'm not sure of their other doctrine, but I know that there is a unhealthy weight put on Baptism. There seems to be a lot of C&C in OKC. I have had numerous encounters with C&C folks while Street Preaching, that wait around until the end, then (usually nicely) come over and explain that the message wasn't complete because it didn't include the necessity of water baptism. They will go on for HOURS if you let them. I think that most would come around after a little time understanding that Baptism is a act of submission and obedience to the Lord and not a necessary sacrament for salvation.
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 24, 2006 9:49:39 GMT -5
I've run into that before as well. You're right Tony, they are very polite and usually very, very supportive of the open air preaching...but the one thing that becomes an issue is baptism.
I was on a campus in AK, and while someone from the team was preaching I discovered some pamphlets/tracts stapeled to an information kiosk nearby. They were for the unbeliever but their content were defintely CHURCH issues. Baptism, sabbaths, the details of profane speech - as concerning idle talk.
I personally believe that if someone is born again they SHOULD be baptized, as soon as possible as well...but I don't believe they'll go to hell if they don't.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on May 24, 2006 9:51:16 GMT -5
Yeah, there are several CoC here in Arkansas. There have been times when one would say, "Do you go to THE church of Christ?" "No, I do not." was my response. "That is your problem! You are going to Hell!" was his response.
Yes this guy went on and on about baptism, and he himself wasn't baptized nor born again from what I could see of him going to bars drinking and cursing. He was just set in his mind that he would not obey Christ, baptism wasn't his only disobedience.
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 24, 2006 10:11:13 GMT -5
Before we get a little too carried away... I have also met fine folks from this church who don't make it a major issue...who are just extremely thankful that the Good News is being preached.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on May 24, 2006 10:47:30 GMT -5
Let's not lump all COC's in the same category I have a personal friend who is a COC pastor. They do not believe in the Gifts and are strong on water baptism. After fellowship with a COC for several years, Bob (the COC Pastor) now concedes the Gifts can be and sometimes are given by God; this is a big step for these guys. He also concedes that he cannot judge a person's Salvation based solely on water baptism. Another huge step. COC as a whole is very cultic in practice, but in doctrine, with the exception of water baptism, they are orthodox. I also believe water baptism is more than an "outward" symbol; Scripture nowehere states that it is a symbol at all. What is it? It's LESS than salvation, but MORE than a mere symbol. 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ You see? It is NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin) but IS the answer of a good conscience toward GOD (not a public confession for MAN). Example: A new believer confessed a sexual sin he had comitted as a non saved person; he said it still haunted him. So, I asked if he had been baptized yet, to which he replied he had not been. This COC pastor and I took Mike to a pool and baptized him by full immersion. That wa s6 years ago. This young man attends my mother's Charismatic church. his testimony, to this day, is that the moment he came out of that water, his CONSCIENCE was renewed and that specific sin has no longer haunted him. This is his testimony, not mine. I believe him because it bears out the truth of 1 Peter 3:21 perfectly.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on May 24, 2006 13:32:16 GMT -5
Armen and I went around and around on this subject in onother thread. Here is my take...
If you for some reason CANNOT be baptized, God knows that and I dont hink He will hold it against you. But if you WON'T be baptized God knows that and you are in direct and utter rebellion against a clear command of Christ and therefore will go to hell.
Jesus said, "He that belives and is baptized shall be saved" but he also said, "He that believeth not shall be d**ned". Weighing the emphasis here it seems beliveing is vastly more imprtant than baptism, but that doesnot take away the neccessity, nor the importance or function of baptism.
I do believe that if you are not tied to a post your whole life or kept from water in some other way, than yes, Jesus and the entire New Testament makse it clear that baptism is essential.
|
|
|
Post by jonathanhulewicz on May 25, 2006 1:52:38 GMT -5
I trust that we can all agree on this topic...
Here is a nice summary on baptism which I wrote in the back of my bible:
1) It is to be done immediately after salvation (Acts 2:41, 8:12-13, 8:36-38, 10:47, 16:14-15, 18:8, 16:30-33)
2) It is to be immersion in water (Matthew 3:6, 3:11, 3:14, Mark 1:5, 1:8, Luke 3:16 John 1:26, 1:33, 3:23, Acts 1:5, Acts 8:36-38, 10:47, 11:16)
3) Is appointed as an ordinance of the church (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15-16)
4) There is only one (Ephesians 4:15)
5) Jesus was baptised as our example (Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:9, Luke 3:21)
|
|
|
Post by Doc H on May 25, 2006 18:04:36 GMT -5
Josh Parsley,
Re: The article you posted. This is almost straight out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's called the 'baptism of desire'. Similarly if a Catholic Martyr dies before being sprinkled then they are still "born-again". A martyr is a person who dies for his or her faith in Christ. Amazing how these Catholics can always find come up withsome loophole to defend their unscriptural.
Make sure you know your Bible really well and Catholic theology before you ever do battle with a Catholic Apologist-take it from me, they are very good at twisting scriptures.
|
|
|
Post by Josh Parsley on May 26, 2006 8:31:54 GMT -5
Doc, Can you show me what exactly you disagree with in that article? I'm just curious... The guy that wrote that is not catholic whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by Doc H on May 27, 2006 0:19:46 GMT -5
If I were to neglect baptism, and even refuse it, I will go to hell.
This is what I take issue with. We are saved by grace through faith and not by obeying the commandments and ordinances of baptism and communion.
If you are truly born again and refuse to get baptized then you are simply being a disobedient Christian who God will no doubt in his timing, chasten.
I have heard of many Muslims who have got saved and are unable to get baptized beause of persecution from their families and government, so is God going to damn them to Hell?
|
|
|
Post by lissyg on May 27, 2006 3:31:46 GMT -5
Hmm... I am not sure what to think. I was just thinking about those that sprinkle.. I don't think that is what they did in scripture, but I am not convinced they are going to hell. What about Acts 16:25-34? would you say that in the middle of the night all of the prison keeper's family went to a river to be baptized or that they poured or sprinkled water on thier heads depending on what they had in store in the house? You say if someone were just sprinkled that they wouldn't go to hell, as far as you know,.... would you then say they were just being disobedient? what about if they were baptized in full earnestness bc they knew it was required but didn't know about the biblical way to be baptized and didn't know it was such an issue to be baptized a certain way and their pastor didn't do fulll immersions(partly bc the facility didn't have the means). would even though they've been a christian for awhile, would you say that since they now "know" the biblical way of baptism, that they should then find a church that does immersion and be immersed? just sort of wondering...
|
|
|
Post by Doc H on May 28, 2006 1:28:52 GMT -5
Josh Parsley,
I think if you study the Bible carefully (and I'm not saying that you don't) there was always a source of water close by for full immersion. But I know what you are saying. What about an elderly person with severe respiratory failure who gets saved and full immersion in water would probably kill them? Obviously God knows their heart and in this situation would excuse them for not being able to be baptized.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on May 28, 2006 8:20:19 GMT -5
Bapstism - baptizo - To immerse.
|
|