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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 27, 2006 15:03:57 GMT -5
I have heard some preachers say, "you can't know their heart only God can." Meaning, if they are sinning you're not to judge them because only God knows for sure if they are saved or if they are not saved. True?
Can you really know who's saved and who isn't? How can you know?
Should we judge our brothers and sisters in Christ? Why or why not?
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Post by biblethumper on May 27, 2006 21:08:52 GMT -5
Yes, we are to judge, amen... Good post! I'm sure many would take issue with it, yet I also believe we can see one's Salvation by their fruit
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on May 28, 2006 0:12:59 GMT -5
Yes, we are to judge, amen... Good post! I'm sure many would take issue with it, yet I also believe we can see one's Salvation by their fruit I agree with you on this one biblethumper. However, we are not meant to be going around the church judging each individual but the bible clearly tells us to judge 'righteous judgement'. A good indication of one's salvation is by their works/fruit. If there are no works/fruit after salvation eg) attending church, reading the bible, prayer, soul winning etc then you can wonder whether or not that person is truly saved. 'Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.' (James 2:18)
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Post by evanschaible on May 28, 2006 11:13:50 GMT -5
Out of the anundance of the heart the mouth speaks; you will know a tree by its fruit. By the fruit of their life and what they speak about we can fairly accurately pinpoint whether or not they are truly "in the church".
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 28, 2006 22:32:40 GMT -5
Yes, we are to judge, amen... Good post! I'm sure many would take issue with it, yet I also believe we can see one's Salvation by their fruit I agree with you on this one biblethumper. However, we are not meant to be going around the church judging each individual but the bible clearly tells us to judge 'righteous judgement'. I would disagree with you on this one based on what scripture tells us... "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Cor 5:9-13 (NIV) "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.1 Cor 5:9-13 (KJV) Then I would ask WHY are we to judge our brothers and sisters? What purpose does it serve?
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on May 29, 2006 0:38:58 GMT -5
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard 'or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Cor 5:9-13 (NIV) "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.1 Cor 5:9-13 (KJV) Then I would ask WHY are we to judge our brothers and sisters? What purpose does it serve? First of all I don't take much notice of any scripture in the NIV... so thanks for posting it in the KJV. If a brother or sister is engrossed in known sin are we meant to just sit back and let him/her continue in it? 'Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.' (Galations 6:1) We are meant to do it in a spirit of 'meekness' and not as one who is proud etc. The purpose? So the indivdual can get back into fellowship with God. Everything needs to be done in a spirit of humbleness and love.
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Post by Doc H on May 29, 2006 20:02:32 GMT -5
Bro Jonathan,
Amen to both.
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Post by biblethumper on May 29, 2006 20:20:29 GMT -5
Out of the anundance of the heart the mouth speaks; you will know a tree by its fruit. By the fruit of their life and what they speak about we can fairly accurately pinpoint whether or not they are truly "in the church". AMEN!
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on May 31, 2006 14:33:20 GMT -5
I think something should be cleared up when it comes to "judgment." By no means am I trying to detract from the importance of righteous judgment in the life of a follower of Jesus ...
But making a judgment does not mean passing a sentence upon them. I can clearly see the temptation to write someone off, after making a righteous judgment call. Will we have faith that God will speak to them? That they will change? Do we have hope and hope the best? Or do we find ourselves shaking our heads and inside our minds thinking "that'll never happen." Do we find ourselves thinking that "it will take a miracle for so-and-so to change" yet never expect that miracle?
Just felt I should lend a helpful exhortation. I pray it was encouraging. God bless.
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Post by biblethumper on May 31, 2006 16:23:26 GMT -5
very thought provoking.
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Post by newsong on May 31, 2006 16:49:47 GMT -5
True thank you for those gems. God never gives up on us. While there is life there is hope for all. God loves the Prodigals too. I was one myself and must not forget the fact.
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Post by robdog on May 31, 2006 17:07:17 GMT -5
I think something should be cleared up when it comes to "judgment." By no means am I trying to detract from the importance of righteous judgment in the life of a follower of Jesus ... But making a judgment does not mean passing a sentence upon them. I can clearly see the temptation to write someone off, after making a righteous judgment call. Will we have faith that God will speak to them? That they will change? Do we have hope and hope the best? Or do we find ourselves shaking our heads and inside our minds thinking "that'll never happen." Do we find ourselves thinking that "it will take a miracle for so-and-so to change" yet never expect that miracle? Just felt I should lend a helpful exhortation. I pray it was encouraging. God bless. Amen to that...Good stuff Jeff.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 1, 2006 17:40:39 GMT -5
I think something should be cleared up when it comes to "judgment." By no means am I trying to detract from the importance of righteous judgment in the life of a follower of Jesus ... But making a judgment does not mean passing a sentence upon them. I can clearly see the temptation to write someone off, after making a righteous judgment call. Will we have faith that God will speak to them? That they will change? Do we have hope and hope the best? Or do we find ourselves shaking our heads and inside our minds thinking "that'll never happen." Do we find ourselves thinking that "it will take a miracle for so-and-so to change" yet never expect that miracle? Just felt I should lend a helpful exhortation. I pray it was encouraging. God bless. Yes, this is right on where I believe this needs to go. We judge, or bring enlightment to someone by the scriptures, for the purpose of loving our brothers and sisters enough and saying "hey look you may not know it but do you realize what God has to say about why we should dress modestly?"... for example, so as to help keep each other on the straight and narrow through loving each other. It is a wicked and miserable world out there and sometimes we can get tripped up and off course a little, which then can have a negative sin effect on another brother or sister, etc.. it's a way of allowing the Lord to use us in keeping His sheep in the fold. Amen? Very good insight Jeffery I add these passages... "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:9-11and "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20and "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." Matt 18:32-35There are many other scriptures that speak to our being a servant to our brothers and sisters, not lording over each other, but loving each other and it will be from that love that much sin will be forgiven. We judge our selves and our brethern with the Word so as to bring life and help encourage each other on in this great struggle as we look heavenward toword Home.
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Post by tonyholland on Jun 1, 2006 18:14:47 GMT -5
I think something should be cleared up when it comes to "judgment." By no means am I trying to detract from the importance of righteous judgment in the life of a follower of Jesus ... But making a judgment does not mean passing a sentence upon them. I can clearly see the temptation to write someone off, after making a righteous judgment call. Will we have faith that God will speak to them? That they will change? Do we have hope and hope the best? Or do we find ourselves shaking our heads and inside our minds thinking "that'll never happen." Do we find ourselves thinking that "it will take a miracle for so-and-so to change" yet never expect that miracle? Just felt I should lend a helpful exhortation. I pray it was encouraging. God bless. Yes, this is right on where I believe this needs to go. We judge, or bring enlightment to someone by the scriptures, for the purpose of loving our brothers and sisters enough and saying "hey look you may not know it but do you realize what God has to say about why we should dress modestly?"... for example, so as to help keep each other on the straight and narrow through loving each other. It is a wicked and miserable world out there and sometimes we can get tripped up and off course a little, which then can have a negative sin effect on another brother or sister, etc.. it's a way of allowing the Lord to use us in keeping His sheep in the fold. Amen? Very good insight Jeffery Agreed! If I may expand the topic a little. Does the scripture that Darc shared with us clearly tell us not to judge those outside of the Church? Also....and Jeff had some great comments on this.....what does it mean to judge?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Jun 1, 2006 18:38:39 GMT -5
Yes, it does say we are not to judge the world. That is God's job. Through preaching and sharing the gospel we expose sin but it is God, through His Holy Spirit that brings the sense of feeling the judgment of God on a sinner. The Word and God's Law judges the world. (Gal. 3) Amen?
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Post by tonyholland on Jun 1, 2006 19:11:02 GMT -5
Yes, it does say we are not to judge the world. That is God's job. Through preaching and sharing the gospel we expose sin but it is God, through His Holy Spirit that brings the sense of feeling the judgment of God on a sinner. The Word and God's Law judges the world. (Gal. 3) Amen? Amen!! This certainly makes me want to reflect on my behavior when I am preaching to the lost. All truth, all the time is of vital importance. This also makes me reflect on the importance of people seeing a reflection in Christ in the way that we share and preach. It's not up to me to judge, it's up to me to share in truth with great urgency.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Jun 1, 2006 21:57:26 GMT -5
Indeed...when preaching (especially open air) you need to educate your audience as to what you mean by "judgment" when you pass judgement. In my experience many tend to think that judgment includes sentencing and condemning.
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Post by aaron on Jun 2, 2006 23:02:23 GMT -5
Jeff could you explain what you mean by 'judgment' then? Are you talking about discernment rather than condemning and sentencing?
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