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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 27, 2006 20:41:52 GMT -5
Let's try this again. I know we tried this before on the MB, but it got a little out of hand. I have been thinking about this more and more lately. Eli spoke up on some things when Eli, Miles and Evan stayed at my house a little while ago. The only "evidence" I see for the "rapture" in the Bible is the verses that talk about two people being in a field and then all of a sudden one is gone. But, the pre-trib people that I have talked to, say that those verses aren't talking about the rapture. So, my friend Tony (pre-trib) and I were looking at Matthew 24, etc. the other night and I couldn't find any verses that give evidence to the rapture. I would like people's views on this. Please provide Scripture references as well...
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Post by tbxi on Oct 27, 2006 23:22:15 GMT -5
I am still finding out where I stand on this. I haven't studied orthodox preterism or amillenialism in depth; the only familiarity I have with the pre-tribulational viewpoint is that of pop theology, aka the Left Behind books that everyone knows about whether they're believers or not, and that kind of thing. I am undecided but I am leaning away from premillenialism. I'll be honest, though, it hasn't been the focus of my studies. I just read a bit about it here and there, I haven't gone into it deeply yet. Sorry!
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Post by jackjackson on Oct 27, 2006 23:42:31 GMT -5
Rev K:
I hold a position called "Pre-Wrath", where the church will be pulled out before the wrath of lamb (seal sixth seal description of this wrath in Rev. 6:7). We are only promised in 2 Thes. that we (saints) will not experience God's wrath. Since His wrath comes at Rev. 6:7, and God is not a liar, we would have to be raptured or receive the the same protection as the 144,000 , which have their foreheads sealed in Rev. 7:3. It is obvious that the wrath of lamb would hurt them if this was not done.
I believe the saints will not need this because Rev. 7:9 has John almost startled by the sudden appearing of a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.
This description is much different than those John saw and heard in Rev.3:11. To say the church is there at that point assumes that the elders could not be there without us. It has been assumed by many that the presence of the elders means we are they too. I disagree based on Rev. 7:9 and Johns reaction and the fact he describes people in that verse, but doesn't mention a mass of people in 3:11.
The verse then that I feel best describes the rapture is Rev 7:9. It would also make sense of the 30 minutes of silence. Our tears wiped away as we come to grips with finally being saved with the Lord, but then know that the wrath of the lamb is going to rock the earth and those who are left.
I have a time line that I did and other reasons why I believe this on my web at ministerwhereyouare.org in Devotionals under a story about whether Christians will experience tribulation.
Jack
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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 28, 2006 8:25:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your post Jack. That is very interesting. I will have to read what you have on your website sometime soon...
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Oct 30, 2006 13:39:07 GMT -5
I can understand your quandary with Mt 24 specifically regarding not finding where the "rapture" happens and I would like to use it as my passage of reference when I say I am a post trib/ pre God's wrath believer.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
His disciples asked Him three questions: 1) When shall these things be? 2) What shall be the sign of thy coming? 3) and What shall be the sign of the end of the world?
Jesus goes on to answer all three. We all know Jesus is coming back one time to gather His elect, by His angels, up to Him (Mark 13:27; Mt 24:31). There's going to be ONE gathering (rapture) at the end of the age according to what Jesus said. There's a progressive move through time that He expresses all the way to v29, where He says those days, What days? The days He spoke of before v29. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If you can imagine... the earth will be completely dark just before His coming because the Word says "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven" and then He comes in all His Glory and brilliant Light and lights up the world! This will be how everyone will see Him and there will a LOUD trumpet call as He sends out His angels to gather us to Him. The point of this is that the pretrib camp says it will be an all of a sudden rapture where everyone is caught of guard by His coming, which is simply not true. According to this passage and many others it is clear that, IF we are the last generation then, His coming is at the end of time as we know it. You are right Revk in that you find no rapture or gathering in the Mt 24 passage until right at the end.
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Post by jackjackson on Oct 30, 2006 22:22:58 GMT -5
Darc/Rev K:
I too believe that the Pre-wrath will be the end of the 70th week, cut short as Jesus said, otherwise no flesh would survive. In this way, we will still not know the day or hour, but will know the season and that day will not come on us as a theif in the night either.
Jack
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Post by dmatic on Oct 31, 2006 16:01:47 GMT -5
Some definitions may be in order. Pre-Trib.....means that we are in a period before the Great Tribulation.....check!(I think Pre-Mil means that we are in a period of time before the Millenial reign of Christ....check! Pre-Trib rapturist believes that Christians will be raptured away before the Great tribulation even starts.....not checked, by me. I do not believe that the Bible teaches this view. The passage speaking of two in the field or at the mill or in bed and one taken and the other left are referring to the taking away of the unrighteous! the righteous will be left! To inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace. peace, dmatic
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Post by ebrayley on Oct 31, 2006 18:14:30 GMT -5
Yes. Amen brother.
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Post by ejuliot on Nov 1, 2006 20:03:29 GMT -5
I grew up in a church that very strongly believes in Pre-trib. I have shared my personal convictions with few people but it would be interesting to hear what others think. I believe that there are certain prophecies that are very clear in scripture according to their time in history and what will happen but then others are not very clear. When the Jews read the Old Testament before Christ they had theories about the messiah (mainly in the Talmud I believe) but these theories were very far from what actually happened even though it was originally based upon the Old testament prophecies. These theories eventually caused many to reject Christ as the messiah because his fulfillment of prophecies did not line up with what they had been expecting. I think that Christians at times make the same mistake concerning future prophecy. A perfect example is the Left Behind series...What if it doesn't happen that way? People might mock and reject the Word of God because man's interpretation of prophecy doesn't line up with the actual events even if the Word of God lines up with the actual events. I do not think that we were commanded to have the end times mapped out in a nice time line but we were commanded to watch and pray... I could be wrong. What do you guys think? Mark 13 32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
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Post by ejuliot on Nov 1, 2006 20:17:15 GMT -5
P.S. I am not speaking about Eli's timeline...I was actually thinking of some of the time lines I had seen while working in a Christian bookstore that were very detailed. I was a little skeptical about their scriptural basis.
An example would be of the "Parable of The Fig Tree" in Matthew 24: 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
My childhood church believes that this prophecy is speaking about Israel and specifically when Israel became a country in 1948 or when they regained Jerusalem. They say that they come to this conclusion because the Fig Tree is frequently symbolic of Israel. I am sure there is a possibility that this is true but I am not quite sure how one can come to such a confident conclusion as this when so little information is given. Of course this has repercussions for verse 34 because that would mean that a generation (however long that is) will not pass away after 1948 or 1967 and then from there people are claiming that Christ should return in 2007 (I sure hope so ;D) or in 2012. If they are wrong they will fall into the same category as the 7th Day Adventists, and the Jehovah's Witnesses...
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Post by dmatic on Nov 2, 2006 13:43:32 GMT -5
ejuliot wrote: "35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the thingycrowing, or in the morning:" May I ask what version you are using? Seriously though....your point is well taken....."Watch"! There is strong delusion 'out there'... The fig tree that produces leaves, but no fruit....ever again...may indeed be the secular "state of israel", but they may have the world deceived...in kind of a switch from the Esau Jacob deception. It seems, however, that we are getting close to some major fulfillments of prophecy....like say the overwhelming scourge. I've heard (from a man, not from God) that it will begin in 2010... I've also heard (again, from a man, not personally from God) that we should be watching this coming Nov. 8th....(possible war starting with Iran) The year 2006 is interesting, because....it was the year 2006, (from Adam) that Noah died. "Just as in the days of Noah.....and the flood came and took them all away... peace...and keep watching.....dmatic
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Post by ejuliot on Nov 2, 2006 15:20:20 GMT -5
May I ask what version you are using? KJV...I definitly agree that something is happening prophetically. I even think that Israel regaining its land is setting up for end time events and all of the current activity in the middle east is probaly apart of it as well. It will be amazing to see how God fulfills prophecy.
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Post by ebrayley on Nov 4, 2006 2:45:30 GMT -5
I agree Ejuliot, personally I dislike charts and timelines, especially those ones that go into great detail where the Bible honestly doesn't! I tried my best to keep mine unspeculative and Scriptural.
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Post by ejuliot on Nov 4, 2006 2:52:40 GMT -5
I agree Ejuliot, personally I dislike charts and timelines, especially those ones that go into great detail where the Bible honestly doesn't! I tried my best to keep mine unspeculative and Scriptural. I think you did a very good job too!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Nov 6, 2006 12:37:48 GMT -5
Where the "Left Behind" stuff got off tract first of all is that it was and is written as "fiction" but over time the viewing public swallows it whole, without searching the Scriptures and because of that it then becomes tradition so therefore it must be right. The example that you brought up, using Mt 24:32-34, was said by Jesus after speaking vv2-31 and in conjunction with them. Jesus is using a common example in the natural for the hearers so they could connect. Just as the fig tree shows signs that it is getting ready to spring forth fruit is the same as what He just spoke in vv2-31. In other words the signs He gave there we are to watch for them and be ready, just as you said. It was simply a natural example of what is to come. He was highlighting the SIGNS. It was the same thing as saying verily, verily I tell you or listen up, this very important.
I agree with your statement about what will happen because of the "Left Behind" series. Because it doesn't follow Scripture, but instead a wish, it will leave millions of "Christians" delusional and doing just what you said, mocking the Scriptures and apostatizing from the Way. That will be some very terrible times for those of us holding on 'til the very end and onto the hope of salvation still yet to come because those will be mocking us!
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 27, 2006 3:34:59 GMT -5
Could it be the "this generation" Christ was speaking to in Matt. 24:34 was the generation He was speaking to? Josephus' account of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. reads like Matt. 24
He records the land was overrun with seducers, magicians and imposters all claiming to be the Christ.
History shows earthquakes, famines and pestilence in the 60's. All BEFORE 70 A.D.
Apostles and others were brought before rulers and martyred.
The gospel was preached to the whole world. (Col. 1:5-6,23 Rom. 1:8)
Romans brought their idols into the temple, placed them over the Eastern gate and sacrificed to them.
Also, the"sun darkened, the moon not give her light...the stars shall fall" is prophetic language for calamities and judgment on the earth. As on Babylon (Isaiah 13:10) Pharaoh's destruction (Ezekiel 32:7; 32:8) The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 8:10) Also see Zephaniah 1:15 Lamentations 3:44
Why would Jesus tell the women who bewailed and lamented Him "weep not for Me, But weep for yourselves, and for your children."? Luke 23:28
Why would He tell them "then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." What other book in the Bible has this language?
Brobreaud
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Post by trustandobey on Dec 27, 2006 4:01:21 GMT -5
Your are preaching Futurism, You can not seperate Daniel 9:24 to 27, The antichrist was exposed in 538 A.D. The 2nd beast with two horns was revealed in 1798, and the false prophet is working mightly today. Futurism was establish in the late 1500's to counter the reformation, because all our reformers exposed it.
The early Church fathers, told us what paul said to the Church of Thessalonians, when Imperial Rome falls, then the little horn will be exposed.
John Wesley in his note on Revelation 13:11, written in 1754, says of the two-hored or second best of Revelation 13 He is not yet come, though he cannot be far off. For he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast. John Wesley knew who the first beast was, and was look for the second, Why are we? quote " John Wesley, Explanatory Notes upon the New Testament, 1791 edition, vol. 3, p. 299"
Folk's the Mark of the Beast, is the Mark of His Authority, Worship has to do with what day you worship The LORD of Host. Saturday or Sunday Get ready
TrustandObey
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 27, 2006 5:59:32 GMT -5
Antichus epiphanies does not filful one single qualification of the antichrist of BIBLE prophecy! That theory was invented in 1500's by a Roman Catholic priest. It was brought to America by Scofield and spread in Christendom by Jesuits. The antichrist was with Christianity and went out from "US" or Christians. Meaning they apostated the truth! They had the truth and exchanged it for Pagan traditions of man!
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us , but they were not of us ; for if they had been of us , they would no doubt have continued with us : but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us . KJV.
This is the Roman Church in the early centuries! They left the truth of obedience to the apostalic doctrine for Pagan festivals, X-Mass, Easter, Sunday worship and a Haloween, and Santa Claus and little bunny rabbits and chicken eggs etc... It is all antichrist! WE need to return to the purity of the faith!
Matthew
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 27, 2006 14:51:39 GMT -5
What is "futurism" as it relates to theology and eschatology? I have heard the term, but can only find it related to art and architecture.
Brobreaud
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Post by tbxi on Dec 27, 2006 14:58:28 GMT -5
I believe it refers to those who believe in a future literal 1000 year kingdom ruled by Christ.
It includes dispensationalist and historical pre-millenial believers. Most of the people on this board, I think. I am not concrete on an eschatological position myself.
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 27, 2006 23:31:13 GMT -5
What "antichrist was exposed in 538 A.D."?
What "2nd beast with two horns was revealed in 1798"?
Who is "the false prophet working mightily today"?
Also, who would interpret "thousand" in Psalm 50:10;90:4;91:17;105:8 or Deu. 7:9 for example as being a literal thousand?
Brobreaud
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 1:02:11 GMT -5
Reply to Brobreaud,
Each of your four questions are excellent! They are from a "thinking Christian" and since I believe you are sincere, by God's grace answers are in order!
First, let me define "futurism" and "preterism." These terms were developed due to the Roman Catholic Jesuit Scholors, Reberto Alcazar, and Francisco Ribera. In the 1500's the Roman Catholic Church also called Papacy, was fingered by the "Prostantant Reformation" as "THE ANTICHRIST" of Bible prophecy!
As you may well know, but many of our brethern have forgotten our heritage that the Papacy was all but destroyed from Martin Luther, Tyndale, Huss, Jerome, Bilney, Browne, Fox, Hamilton, Latimer, Ridley, and thousands of others. The apostate power of the Roman Papacy was brought to its knees. Millions upon millions left Poppery, for Protestantism. The Papacy also would have come to an end if it were not for the "Counsel of Trent." Which we will discuss sometime later. The era of the 1500's was when the Church was vunerable and the effort to remove the acusing finger of "Antichrist" from the Papacy, led to the commisioning of the two Jesuit priests Alcazar, Ribera. The one priest wrote a study on Bible prophecy that pointed to "The Antichrist" as a wicked Seleucid Ruler Antichous Epiphanes IV that desecrated the Jewish temple and sacrificed pigs on the alter....Etc... Placing "The Antichrist" in the past around 167 BC. The other priest wrote about "The Antichrist" as some future man that gets possessed by the devil and makes a covenant with the Jews in the future for 7 years. However, both of the Jesuit priests used these false methods of applying the Biblical prophecy of Daniel 9:27 and the one week covenant to the past and to the future. Thus taking the label "Antichrist" off of Rome! The plan failed for 350 years. But in the middle 1800's, the ideas of futurism and preterism were brought to America. But none were interested for the most part in the American CHurches. As in America, the Proststants were taught to HATE Poppery (Catholic teachings) with a passion. But by the early to mid 1900's there were many, many Protestant Churches that suscribe to the openly "BLASPHEMOUS" doctrinal heresies from these Roman Catholic Jesuit priests. The hate for the wicked church of Rome had lost its effect, and many forgot their heritage of freedom from the wicked oppression and false doctrine of Rome. Every single Protestant Church that I know, now teaches that "The Antichrist" was in the past, or is in the Future. None but one teach the pure doctrine of the reformation but the SDA church. The only church on earth that sticks to the Bible and the Bible only, especially dealing with the teachings of "The Antichist," as the Papal Church. This was fortold, that only a remnant would understand this issue!
Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV
Rev 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. KJV The Bible says that only a remnant would understand Bible prophecy. THe remnant would keep "ALL" the commandments of GOD! There is only one church on earth that fits this description. Just one! Anyway! Now that we covered that, I will have to address the 4 questions in another post.
Matthew
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Dec 28, 2006 10:56:15 GMT -5
Brobreaud, Beware of these wolves in sheep's clothing, trustandobey and matthew7! As you noticed they didn't answer your direct questions but instead came along side you ever so subtly trying to sway you over into their camp of deception, lies, wickedness and idolatry through worshiping another god other than the God of the Bible. They are NOT brothers-in-Christ! They will try to use Bible prophecy to lure you into serving a cult. They WILL NOT CHANGE, for they are children of the devil bent on doing his work of deceiving as many as possible so as to draw them away from Jesus and ultimately casting them into hell right along with Satan and themselves.
WARNING!! Be very careful because these are sly devils! Now they will act all offended and be very "forgiving" and even call me a brother of theirs. The devil is not my father so that is impossible. They are on this board to DECEIVE through false teachings, teachers, prophets and a veiled understanding of the Holy Scriptures. Beware! they will try and single you out and pit us against you. They will do whatever they possibly can to throw you off balance to try and confuse you enough to subtly persuade you over into their CULT. They ARE NOT CHRISTIANS! They follow a false prophet....NOT THE BIBLE!!
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 28, 2006 14:12:31 GMT -5
I am aware that Ellen G. White said she had a vision of the 4th commandment highlighted in gold shining above the others, which is suspect to say the least. Anyway, the Sabbath keeps me. That aside...
Daniel 2:44 says "And in the days of these kings (the fourth kingdom) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never ne destroyed:..."
John the Baptist said in Matt. 3:2 "...Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Jesus said in Matt. 4:17 "...Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Correlation?
Brobreaud
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 20:00:35 GMT -5
Darc, My dear brother, I love you and so does "Trustand Obey" and I get the impression, that your comments are not "Christlike" and I pray for you, that you can have "Peace" and happiness and be comforted by the Holy Spirit in you life. I pray the LORD blesses you. Concerned, Matthew P.S.Jesus was accused of the same thing! Let us have peace and humility in our hearts. Luke 11:15 15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. KJV.
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 21:13:46 GMT -5
1) What "Antichrist was exposed in 538 A.D."? 2) What "2nd beast with two horns was revealed in 1798"? 3) Who is "the false prophet working mightily today"? Brobreaud, I would like to answer the first question, and hopefully by God's grace we can get to the second and third later! If you would like to see some online videos of this, you can go to my web-site www.tidingsoutoftheeast.com and one of the seminars I did on "Bible Prophecy" is there, it is a five part series. The first three videos deal with the Antichrist, and then the Mark of the Beast part 1 and part 2. These first three videos are detailed enough to clearly see the Roman Church is the "Antichrist" of Bible prophecy. Feel free to view them. What "Antichrist was exposed in 538 A.D."? In order to understand this question, we must do a thorough analysis of Bible Prophecy and the Words of Jesus Christ. Daniel is the book of the OT and Revelation is the NT counterpart. In these to books are the prophecies and the revealing of the prophecies. Daniel has the outlines, and Revelation has the revealing, or details needed for our day. 2 Peter 1:19 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: KJV Prophecy is all about Jesus Christ and His people. It follows the people of God. Let us establish that there are to be four world empires in Daniel chapter 2. The empires are: 1) Head of gold = Babylon 2) Breast and arms of silver = Medo persia 3) Belly and thighs = Greece 4) Legs of iron, and his feet of iron and part clay = Rome, then the Roman Catholic Church or Papacy. Legs of iron = Pagan Rome; and the feet of iron and part clay = Papal Rome. Rome in its two phases are depicted. First, we must understand that the Book of Daniel was written in 606BC until the release of the Jews from captivity, which was about 70 years later. So the book of Daniel was written well before the prophecies were fulfilled. The book of Daniel is what gives us evidence of truth, and is what we put our faith in, God's ability to tell the future. The four kingdoms can be verified from any history book. The sucession of kingdoms is clear! Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome, which transitions into the Roman Catholic Church, "The Antichrist" of Bible prophecy. We will see the rise of the Papacy in 538AD, but we must lead up to it, so it will be clear! Amen. Just a quick note, the book of Daniel in chapter 8 calls these kingdoms something different, just as Daniel ch. 7 call the kingdoms by different beasts. This is done to identify certain characteristics of each nation. It is very effective and by God's grace we wil look into it somewhat, in a future study. But, what is important is the the sucession of kingdoms is clearly identified in Dan. Ch. 8. The angel in fact states the Ram is Medo Persia, and then the "he goat" with one horn is Greece! It is important to see the sucession of these kingdoms in order! The angel himself even states the order, Medo Persia then Greece. The reason why Babylon is not mentioned, is because it was already identified in Daniel ch. 2, and Daniel ch. 7. Prophecy moves forward, and is progressive. We will see the progressive nature of Bible prophecy as we go. But look at Daniel 8 for the evidence of these kingdoms: Daniel 8:19-24 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. KJV. Since we have identified Babylon as the first kingdom see below: Daniel 2:2-3 2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king. 3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream. KJV. Daniel 2:16 16 Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation. KJV Daniel 2:19 19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. KJV. Daniel 2:31-33 31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. KJV. Daniel 2:38 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. KJV. Thou art this head of gold. KJV. Babylon is the head of gold. Nebuchadnezzar, was king of Babylon. Now we have from "Bible Prophecy" labeled the first three kingdoms. This is a fact of scripture! It can not be argued, it is clear. Any history book will tell you that the kingdom were Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome, then Papal Rome. We will prove the Rome and the Papal Rome part next. It must be noted the Pagan Rome, the ceasars etc... followed Greece. THis we can prove from scripture! Luke 2:1 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed . KJV Who was Caesar Augustus? A Roman ruler! There we have it from scripture! Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece and Rome. In fact, who was it that crucified Jesus Christ? A Roman! Pontius Pilate, a Roman governor! Now we need to go on to the feet od iron and part clay, and prove it is the Papacy. We will do this in a new post! Matthew
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 28, 2006 22:09:10 GMT -5
Praise the LORD:
Okay we have seen the sucession of kingdoms; Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome. Now we will look for characteristics of the forth kingdom Rome, and see the transition from Pagan Rome to Papal Rome. It was Pagan Rome that murdered Jesus Christ! It was Papal Rome that murdered 50,000,000 million to upwards of 200,000,000 millions Christians during the "Dark Ages" when the Roman Catholic Church reigned from 538AD until 1798AD, which is exactly 1260 years, as predicted in Daniel 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 11:2 and 3, and Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 and Rev13:5. Seven times it is mentioned in scripture, God's perfect number! Each time it is talking about the persecution period of God's people, and the reign of the "Antichrist." We will see the 42 months is 1260 days and 2) a time, times and a dividing of time is 1260 days, 3) and a time, times and a half time is 1260 days. Let us look at the Biblical principle of a day equals a year in Bible prophecy. Remember, if the language of the Bible is symbolic, it needs a symbol applied to it. The Bible has the symbols and the Bible decodes them as well.
For example, people, in Bible prophecy are know as "waters" or nations and their kingdoms. Look at the Bible explain this waters=people, and then you can see how God has locked up these messages until the end of time for us now.
Revelation 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whor-e sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. KJV.
This principle is consistent throughout the entire Bible! The symbols are used in the same meaning, sometimes there is a dual meaning, to a symbol, but it is always clear in the use and application, when you allow the Bible to define itself. For example water=people is in the OT as well:
Isaiah 17:12
12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! KJV.
Wow! We serve a mighty God, He is so wonderful, to have order out of things that seem difficult. But we just need the Holy Spirit to teach, and we can understand all the doctrine, and then we will be one faith, one LORD, one church, and one truth! This is God's doing and it is great!
1 Corinthians 14:40
40 Let all things be done decently and in order. KJV. Now let us prove that a day equalls a year in Bible prophecy! And we do not want to forget the principles, as we will use them over and over again. So please take note!
Ezekiel 4:6
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. KJV.
Numbers 14:34
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. KJV.
Psalms 77:5
5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. KJV
This is a universal Bible principle! It is very clear! It may be necessary to show one more example of symbolic interpretation of Bible prophecy, just to drive the point home. We will examine this final point in Daniel ch. 7, Seas, winds, beasts and kingdoms! We will put these symbols to the test!
Daniel 7:2-4
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. KJV.
Now what is winds? What is seas? What is beasts?
WINDS:
Jeremiah 49:36
36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds ; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come. KJV.
As we can see "winds" is a symbol of strife or scattering. It is turmoil or wars. In fact, God is holding back the winds of strife or war, until His people are sealed. See Revelation Ch. 7.
Revelation 7:1-2
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, KJV.
The winds were to do what? "hurt the earth and the sea." What was the sea? People! See Revelation 17:15. The Bible provides the symbol and the interpretation! It is not up to our point of view, but "what saith the LORD?" In fact, look to 2 Peter 1:20.
2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. KJV.
The Bible symbol issue is very important! It is for the Bible to define itself! We are the workman (2 Tim 2:15) that "dig" and uncover the things that God has put in His Word. We will address the beast or Antichrist in a following post. The ground work must be laid correctly or the identification will be unsure, that is why we must understand what the Bible says on interpretation. We must agree with the Bible!
What is a beast?
Daniel 7:17
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. KJV.
Do kings have kingdoms? Yes! Beasts are kings or their kingdom, look and see who takes the kings kingdom!
Daniel 7:18
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. KJV.
These beasts are kings with their respective kingdom:
Daniel 8:23 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Matthew
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Post by matthew7 on Dec 29, 2006 1:37:34 GMT -5
Praise the LORD:
Okay! Now that we understand how to decode the symbols in the Bible, we are ready to apply this knowledge to the study of prophetic understanding. We will "finger" the Papacy, also called the Roman Catholic Church, as "The Antichrist" of Bible prophecy, by God's grace. Please start this study with prayer.
Daniel chapter 2 speaks of four successive kingdoms: Babylon. Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome. This is clear in history books, your local library, and the Bible fortold it all! The four kingdoms of Daniel ch. 7 are 1) Lion= Babylon 2) Bear= Medo Persia 3) Leopard = Greece 4) Dragon with 10 horns = Rome
Daniel Chapter 2 "The Metalic Man image (dream)" 1) Head of Gold = Babylon 2) Breast and arms of silver = Medo persia 3) Belly and thigh of bronze = Greece 4) Legs of iron and feet iron and clay = Rome, then Papal Rome
Daniel Chapter 8 1) Ram with two horns = Medo Persia 2) He goat with notable horn = Greece 3) King of fierce countenance = Rome
What we need to do now is see the description of the fourth beast (Rome), and review all the details of this forth beast, the Roman empire or Pagan Rome. We will look at the transition from the Pagan aspect of Rome to the Church or Papal Rome. Let us list the identifying features from scripture:
Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. KJV. Note: HORN = KING
Identifying Marks of the Little Horn, or Forth Beast:
The forth beast= Daniel 7:7 had Ten Horns. When Pagan Rome fell in 476AD how many nations in Europe came up? The answer is TEN! 10 kingdoms arose or "came up" immediatly after Pagan Rome fell. Dan 7:7 "...and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns." KJV.
A) Suevi B) Angles Saxons C) Franks D) Alemanni E) Lombards F) Burgundians G) Visigoths H) Heruli I) Vandals J) Ostrogoths
1) Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. KJV.
Note: So the Pagan Roman empire fell in 476AD, then the 10 kingdoms, listed above emerged, and follow closely, then a "LITTLE HORN" came up and "uprooted" three of the kingdoms. Which three did this "little horn" uproot? Note this is the Antichrist! The three kingdoms that were uprotted were the 1) Heruli, 2) Vandals 3) Ostrogoths. Who was the power that had these kingdoms destroyed? And then began uncontested reign in Europe for the next 1260 years? The last kingdom was destroyed by 538AD. THis was the year, that "The Antichrist" began to reign. It is in your history books! The Roman Catholic Church! It was the power that arose on the heels of Pagan Rome and it was the power that got rid of the last three kingdoms, that were contesting her power. Rome used other military powers to do her work! This is how she destroyed the 50-200 million Christians in the "Dark Ages" reign from 538AD - 1798AD. She used the power of the Kings of Europe, as they were completely subject the the Roman Catholic Church.
2) Dan 7:8 "...in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." KJV.
What is the Biblical symbol of eyes in the Bible? This power claims to see or to have eyes! What is that refering to? 1 Sam 9:9
9(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer : for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.) KJV.
Amos 7:12
12 Also Amaziah said unto Amos, O thou seer , go, flee thee away into the land of Judah, and there eat bread, and prophesy there: KJV.
The "LITTLE HORN" with eyes like the eyes of a man is claiming to be a religious, or Christian power! It claims to speak for God! But what does the Bible say this power speaks? Dan 7:8 "...in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." KJV. What are the great things? What does this mean "great things?" Let us compare to other scriptures!
Daniel 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. KJV.
Rev 13:5-6
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. KJV
Does the Catholic Church speak Blasphemies? WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY?
Mark 2:7
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? KJV.
The scribes or Rabbi's did not know that Jesus Christ is God! And Jesus Christ can forgive sins! But the Roman Catholic Chruch can not forgive sins! It claims to forgive sins! Just go into a confessional box and ask a priest! This is Biblical blasphemy! Look at this quote from the Catholic Church:
"And God himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of his priest and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse to give absolution, provided the penitent is capable of it." Duties and Dignities of the Priest by Liguori, Page 27.
ON PAGE 34 of the same Roman Catholic Book we read "The priest holds the place of the Saviour himself, when, by saying 'Ego te absolvo', he absolves from sin" Duties and Dignities of the Priest by Liguori, Page 34.
Is a man that claimes to be Christ, or claims to take His role a Antichrist?
John 10:33
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. KJV.
We know that Jesus is a man and God in the flesh, but the scribes and Rabbi's did not know! If a Pope claimes to be God that is another form of blasphemy! The Pope does claim to be "In place of Christ." The title of the Pope in Greek is "Antichrist" meaning, in place of! His official title is "Antichrist." WOW! That could not be any more clear. Look at this quote from a Pope:
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, Page 304.
There are numerous, numerous quotes like this! This is the doctrine of the Church of Rome! It is a blasphemous power!
I hope to write more on this issue later!
Matthew
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 29, 2006 3:25:58 GMT -5
How could "the Roman Catholic church" be "the antichrist" when Revelation 13:18 says, "...count the number of the beast: for it is the number of A MAN..." Then John went on to give a clue to who it was.
Also, "a Roman ruler" did not kill Jesus. Stephen in Acts 7:52 said,"...the Just One (Jesus); of whom ye (the Jews) have been now the betrayers and murderers:"
I Thessalonians 2:14-15 "...the Jews: who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets..."
How does the Roman Empire, which began to crumble, notably, after Titus' destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. "transition" into the "pagan" Papal church?
Could the ten horns be the ten Caesars, one of whom we get a clue, "...seven kings: five are fallen, and one IS..." During the time John wrote.
I have seen evidence of thousands to tens of thousands of people murdered by the Catholic Church through the centuries, but 200,000,000's? Even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, the Armenian genocide and Pol Pot combined would be hard pressed to reach that number.
Brobreaud
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Post by brobreaud on Dec 29, 2006 3:31:38 GMT -5
"...seven kings: five are fallen, and one IS..." Rev. 17:10
Brobreaud
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