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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 22, 2007 20:26:29 GMT -5
BIBLICAL PERFECTION
Using the greek to study perfection has cleared up a lot of the theological fog many theologians have put on perfection.
In Matthew 5:48 Jesus commanded that we be “telios” or “perfect” just as God is “telios” or perfect. The word “telios” means a current state of moral maturity, moral perfection, or more completeness.
The word for “becoming perfect” is different. “Teleioo” is the greek word used referencing being “made perfect”, as in John 17:23. But “telios” is used in the present tense of being, hense the “be” perfect as the Father “is” perfect. God Himself is not being made perfect, or becoming perfect, or trying to be perfect, but is morally mature, morally perfect, morally complete as “telios” means.
Jesus said that the rich young ruler would be perfection “teleios” or morally complete, if he gave up worldliness and followed Jesus, Matthew 19:21. In Romans 12:12 the bible says that the will of God is “telios”. God’s will is not becoming perfect “teleioo” but actually is already morally perfect or complete “telios”. And Paul said that there were Brethren he knew and spoke with who were currently “teleios”, morally perfect, morally mature, or morally complete 1Corinthians 2:6.
Now here is the exciting part!
Often certain Christians will try to wiggle their way out of keeping Jesus’ command to be morally perfect by pointing to the Apostle Paul. They claim, “We are all sinners. Nobodies perfect. Even the Apostle Paul said he had not arrived unto perfection yet” referencing Paul’s words in Philippians 3:12.
But the perfect in verse 12 is “teleioo”, which also means to “finish” or “fulfill”. In the context of the surrounding passages, Paul was saying that he had not yet “finished” his race as to receive His glorified body. It it the same exact word, “teleioo” that Jesus used when He said he had “finished” the purposes God sent Him to fullfill, John 17:4. So when Paul said, “not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect” Paul was saying that he had not yet attained a glorified body nor finished the work God had for him. And so he presses on to the finish line for the prize of a glorified body, verse 14.
But just 3 verses down from the verse sinners, hypocrites, and backsliders will use to justify their sin, in verse 15, Paul said this statement, “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect”. But this perfection Paul is claiming is not the perfection he previously denied. It was not “teleioo”, finishing his course as to receive a glorified body, but it was “teleios” which is the moral perfection, moral maturity, moral completeness Jesus commanded that we have just as God has! So Paul was clearly denied attaining to a physical perfection, but confidently and humbly spoke of a moral perfection!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 22, 2007 21:19:40 GMT -5
I posted this on the School of Biblical Evangelism board, and this was the first response: What? I'm laughing at this because there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with my post. I know she is a Piperite, but seriously! "You can't preach perfection today! The people will laugh at you!" Leonard Ravenhill
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Post by josh on Mar 22, 2007 22:42:05 GMT -5
Just a caution on using greek - The majority of the time you need to see the surronding words to understand the case it is in and also the number. So don't grab one word and make a doctrine.
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Post by josh on Mar 22, 2007 22:42:45 GMT -5
I posted this on the School of Biblical Evangelism board, and this was the first response: What? I'm laughing at this because there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with my post. I know she is a Piperite, but seriously! "You can't preach perfection today! The people will laugh at you!" Leonard Ravenhill Sorry Jesse, but it doesn't seem to be a very Christian characteristic to mock a fellow believer.
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Post by Doc H on Mar 22, 2007 22:44:43 GMT -5
Just a caution on using greek - The majority of the time you need to see the surronding words to understand the case it is in and also the number. So don't grab one word and make a doctrine. Hi Bro. As you know I wouldn't go to the Greek to begin with. However, I agree with your admonition 100%
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Mar 22, 2007 23:51:09 GMT -5
Jesse, what do you want?
A few months ago, I would have agreed with this. Now I can't. I just can't.
Jesse, I know what you've written comes from self-righteousness, hypocrisy, deceit, unbelief, pride, arrogance, ignorance, unloving, unmerciful. Do you know how poor this list is? Compared to your sin, these things are only a few ounces of water in the ocean of iniquity you swim in. I hope that is clear enough and does not frustrate or confuse you.
Listen. I'm not perfect in any way that my finite self can see. I'm ignorant, darkened, blind, wretched, miserable, foolish, poor, unloving, unfeeling, hardened to any of my sins, prayerless, hateful towards God, deceitful beyond perception, self-righteous, I won't go on.
Jesse, I am what I am. I cannot lie, this is who I am. I am worse than this. I'm worse beyond measure. If only I knew, I wish I knew how worse I was. The Bible is true when it says of me that "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." I wish God would break this cold, hardened heart of mine and cause me to weep over myself. Yet I am what I am. As I am I come to Christ.
If you die as the apostle Paul, you die a beggar. If you die as the thief on the cross, you die a beggar. We are all beggars. This is how we will all come before God if God should ever allow us to be before Him. We're so miserable wretches and I wish we all knew this as God knows this. I wish we could weep over ourselves as Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Yet we're so dead, we're so proud, we're so self-righteous.
You like to quote Ravenhill, well I'm sure he's said, "God pity us." Please God pity us.
Regarding Bridget, calling her a Piperite? Laughing? Jesse, comon. Why? Your proud. Your righteous but not with Christ's righteousness but your own. Your unbelieving. Your unmerciful! Oh how unmerciful you are. Can't we just fall at each others feet as dead and weep because of how unholy we all are? No, we must do other things. Our hearts are too high to be brought low. We cannot dwell with the servant Jesus. We think Jesus is to holy to take us as we are and this shows our ignorance to the gospel.
You want to know a simple defintion of what the gospel of Christ is? The fact that He did what He had to do to help us. That might be weak for the strong. Yet my longing is for God to come and help me. To save me from all that I'm ignorant too. Oh, He knows.
I just can't see anything else anymore but Christ and thats such a lie at times but let it be true forever. Let us forget everything else and just look at Jesus.
Yeah, how foolish are my posts and attempts to write, especially something like this. Please forgive me for being so imperfect. God will for Christ's sake and this is glorious, although I cannot believe it as I want to. I cannot see it as it's true.
Jesse, if you read anything, I pray you'll read and perhaps bend the knee to meditating upon: "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." - Hos. 6:6
I don't want to play the hypocrite, I too should meditate upon this but I find I'm so weak to even pick up my Bible and meditate on it. Yet if your strong enough Jesse, meditate upon it.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 23, 2007 0:08:52 GMT -5
BIBLICAL PERFECTIONUsing the greek to study perfection has cleared up a lot of the theological fog many theologians have put on perfection. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus commanded that we be “telios” or “perfect” just as God is “telios” or perfect. The word “telios” means a current state of moral maturity, moral perfection, or more completeness. The word for “becoming perfect” is different. “Teleioo” is the greek word used referencing being “made perfect”, as in John 17:23. But “telios” is used in the present tense of being, hense the “be” perfect as the Father “is” perfect. God Himself is not being made perfect, or becoming perfect, or trying to be perfect, but is morally mature, morally perfect, morally complete as “telios” means. Jesus said that the rich young ruler would be perfection “teleios” or morally complete, if he gave up worldliness and followed Jesus, Matthew 19:21. In Romans 12:12 the bible says that the will of God is “telios”. God’s will is not becoming perfect “teleioo” but actually is already morally perfect or complete “telios”. And Paul said that there were Brethren he knew and spoke with who were currently “teleios”, morally perfect, morally mature, or morally complete 1Corinthians 2:6. Now here is the exciting part!Often certain Christians will try to wiggle their way out of keeping Jesus’ command to be morally perfect by pointing to the Apostle Paul. They claim, “We are all sinners. Nobodies perfect. Even the Apostle Paul said he had not arrived unto perfection yet” referencing Paul’s words in Philippians 3:12. But the perfect in verse 12 is “teleioo”, which also means to “finish” or “fulfill”. In the context of the surrounding passages, Paul was saying that he had not yet “finished” his race as to receive His glorified body. It it the same exact word, “teleioo” that Jesus used when He said he had “finished” the purposes God sent Him to fullfill, John 17:4. So when Paul said, “not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect” Paul was saying that he had not yet attained a glorified body nor finished the work God had for him. And so he presses on to the finish line for the prize of a glorified body, verse 14. But just 3 verses down from the verse sinners, hypocrites, and backsliders will use to justify their sin, in verse 15, Paul said this statement, “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect”. But this perfection Paul is claiming is not the perfection he previously denied. It was not “teleioo”, finishing his course as to receive a glorified body, but it was “teleios” which is the moral perfection, moral maturity, moral completeness Jesus commanded that we have just as God has! So Paul was clearly denied attaining to a physical perfection, but confidently and humbly spoke of a moral perfection! Brother Jesse, I have written articles to this same effect, and I regret it. Honestly, I really regret casting a snare at the feet of the believers. These tings throw the brehtren into condemnation when they realize they will never be sinless, in the way that this doctrine perpetrates sinlessness. I have a really old BLOG site that still has the comprehensive article I wrote on this doctrine, and I think it is still here on the boards somewhere. I wish it were not, and I wish I hadnt wrote it. But o the lessons God taught me about myself through that pharasaical doctrine - and the lessons He taught me about Himself. We need an Isaiah, one that realizes His utter inability and casts himself upon the arm of God. Brother Paul, look unto Jesus and let Him work death in you, that you might live through Him. Let the grace of God swallow you up dear brother. -- Evan
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Mar 23, 2007 0:17:25 GMT -5
Gonna be careful not to hi-jack this thread.
I would Evan but I just don't know how. I don't know how to "let Him" work anything. I don't know how to live through Him. Neither do I know how to "let" the grace of God swallow me up. I can't let him do anything brother, I just wouldn't know where to start. Should I take him by the arm? Should I drag him by the ear and force him to start mopping the floors? How do I let him?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 23, 2007 9:30:00 GMT -5
Jesse, The main reason those words are different is because one is a verb, the other an adjective/noun. I believe in a type of perfection, but I'm sure it's not the same as yours since we disagree on what happened at the fall. And because we differ on that we then differ what we call "conversion." teleioo- verb teleios- adjective When you click those links notice the "Part of Speech"
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 15:33:39 GMT -5
I deeply apologize if I appeared to be mocking. It was not my intention or desire to mock anyone.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 23, 2007 20:15:14 GMT -5
Gonna be careful not to hi-jack this thread. I would Evan but I just don't know how. I don't know how to "let Him" work anything. I don't know how to live through Him. Neither do I know how to "let" the grace of God swallow me up. I can't let him do anything brother, I just wouldn't know where to start. Should I take him by the arm? Should I drag him by the ear and force him to start mopping the floors? How do I let him? Oh dear brother Paul, I have no reason to doubt your salvation, other than the fact you are telling me. But even then I hesitate to tell you that you are unsaved. But I will tell you exactly what I would tell someone who inquired as you have. With a sense of your utter helplessness and worthlessness, your inner depravity and sinfulness, you are not far from the kingdom of God. You must know that God is holy, God is just, and God is good. The holiness of God will not allow your, nor my, sin to dwell in His presence, and something must be done. That something is not done by ourselves, but has already been done by another - the Man Christ Jesus - Who yielded His life in atonement for sin, and opened the life gate that all might go in. How do you go in - YOU don't. If you are still in your sin, you must fall at the feet of the bloodstained cross, and be made new and clean by the blood of the covenant shed for you. The old Paul must die, and the new Paul enters into the strait gate, and walks the narrow path that leads to life, and is paved with the virtue and merit of Jesus Christ - not Paul McGrade. IF you are unsaved, fall to your knees, and cry out to God, and do not get up until He does a work in you. You cannot do a thing but yield yourself a servant to obey the Saviour, and He will save you. He will quicken you, and raise you up to sit with Him in heavenly places. Jesus bore your sin in His own body on the tree, and He bore the chastisement that brought us peace. The wrath of His Father was poured out upon Him, and His shed blood is the reason you can be saved, or for that matter, any one can be saved. By grace are you saved, through faith, and it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Look to Jesus dear brother, and fall on your face and don't get up until He does a work in you, and I promise you dear brother, HE WILL SAVE YOU. If you have any other questions eMail me: Evan@OneBodyEvangelism.com Also I would love to talk to you - eMail me your phone number if you would like. -- Evan
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Post by josh on Mar 23, 2007 20:24:18 GMT -5
I deeply apologize if I appeared to be mocking. It was not my intention or desire to mock anyone. Its not about 'appearing to mock' but rather the whole post you did was mocking her. The all the faces with rolling eyes, and then saying "I know she is a piperite, but seriously". You were mocking her. If you practice Christian perfection, why do you mock your sister in Christ? To your knees man, you need to repent.
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Post by sermonindex on Mar 24, 2007 11:41:05 GMT -5
Amen, we are only perfect in Christ and his work on the Cross. No effort of our own can bring us to moral perfection, thats a lie from hell. But Christian holiness is a sure promise yet it is still through Christ. Those that are justified Christ will sanctify.
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