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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 22, 2007 20:30:02 GMT -5
SINNERS BY CHOICE OR CONSTITUTION?
Here is another great nugget. Are we sinners by moral choice or by physical constitution? Those who advocate a constitutional sin often use Ephesians 2:3.
Ephesians 2:3 “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the others.”
The Greek word for “nature” is “phusis” which Strong’s says can actually be translated as “constitution” or “usage”. In context of the whole verse this passage means that those who choose to walk after the flesh, to gratify it’s lusts and desires, are by their usage of their constitution children of wrath.
The flesh naturally has lusts, cravings, or desire, which can be gratified through the forbidden means of sin. They are involuntary lusts, cravings, or desires, being strictly physical and not moral, and so they do not bring forth moral sin until the will serves them supremely (James 1:15).
These natural lusts, cravings, or desires were the source of temptation for Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:6). She “saw that it was good for food”, “pleasant to the eye”, and “desired to make one wise”. These were all natural physical appetites which she sought to gratify through sin or disobedience to God. This was the first case in the history of human beings when a human being submitted their will to their flesh rather then the truth of God revealed to their minds. This was the first case in human history of a human individual doing what feels good rather then what she knew was good. And this is exactly what every sinner does.
The physical constitution of man is a mere tool without any inherit moral character. The body is neither moral nor immoral, good nor bad, sinful or holy in and of itself apart from the usage the human will uses it for. As a tool, the body can be an instrument of sin or an instrument of righteousness, depending on what the human will yields it to:
Romans 6:13 “Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.”
Romans 6:19 “I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.”
Galatians 6:8 “For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
The physical body that Christians have is the same exact physical body they had when they were children of wrath, and will remain the same until the glorification (1Corinthians 15:53-54). While the constitution itself is the same, the usage of the Christians constitution has changed. They have obeyed the command to “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” Romans 12:1
Sin is when the will is submitted to the sensibilities, to the lusts or desires of the flesh. Sinners do what “feels good,” seeking their own pleasure. But obedience is when the will is submitted to what is “reasonable”, performing it‘s “reasonable service“, when the will submits to the intellect, or to the moral truth of God which the Spirit reveals to the mind. So Christians do what they “know is good” for the well-being of others. So those who walk in the Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, Galatians 5:16. And those who submit their will to the Spirit, rather then the flesh, have no condemnation in Christ, Romans 8:1.
And it is by willfully escaping the corruption that comes by obeying lust, by yielding unto the moral demands presented by the Spirit, that we become partakers of the divine nature:
2Peter 1:14 “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
Because sinners are enemies of God in their mind through wicked works (Col 1:21), because they are obeying the lust of the flesh or wrongly using their natures, constitutions, or faculties (Ephesians 2:3), all sin in essences consists in a “wrong moral choice” to serve self as opposed to serving God‘s glory and the well-being of others. This is why there is no scriptural reason for any sort of “physical” regeneration, because there is no such thing as “physical” sin. Rather the Spirit of God brings about a “moral” regeneration, because all sin is a moral choice. Christians are spiritually, not physically, transformed in this life (Romans 12:12).
“No reward, can justly be bestowed, no punishment can justly be inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” Turtullian
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:26:13 GMT -5
If the Greek word can be translated either/or, then how exactly have you used both definitions in that verse?
By constitution children of wrath...
OR...
By usage children of wrath...
NOT...
By the usage of their constitution children of wrath...
So I can agree with the Greek and it actually supports the doctrine of original sin. We are by constitution, and by usage, children of wrath. Thank God for the original languages.
-- Evan
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 22, 2007 21:34:32 GMT -5
I may have miss spoken. Strongs says that it could be translated "usage of constitution" not necessarily either or.
Sin is nothing other then a moral choice. It is not a physical thing. The only thing that is hereditary is the physical body. Which is why our bodies are depraved (death and disease) but our souls come from God Ezekiel 18 says.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:36:54 GMT -5
It is spiritual infirmity that is passed down through the race of Adam, a fallen nature.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 22, 2007 21:37:57 GMT -5
Our Spirits come from God, not our parents - Ezekiel 18. It's our physical body we get from Adam. Unless sin is physical, we cannot inherit sin from our parents.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:39:57 GMT -5
Well, we could examine this but I will simply say this,
It is not a God given spirit that is sinful, but a man earned spiritual condition that is sinful.
But nevertheless, David prayed, "renew a right spirit within me".
Gordon Olson is wrong when He says unregenerate man has no spirit.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 22, 2007 21:41:48 GMT -5
Actually that chart was the opposing view of man. He was outlining the "causation view" and the view of the unregenerate/regenerated view of man by the opponents of his view.
The chart before that chart is the one Gordon Olson believes in.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:46:31 GMT -5
I will have to look at it again, but anyhow, He denies original sin, as does Fineey, and I cannot see the Pelagian view of man being good, or born a clean slate, or anything like this in the scriptures.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 23, 2007 10:09:15 GMT -5
The word "constitution" doesn't always refer to a physical thing. Isn't this why you would attach the word "physical" to it?
The archaic use of the word constitution is "character or condition of mind; disposition; temperament. " I don't see any of those relating to something physical. I don't have my old websters dictionary here to look what he says, but that is what dictionary.com says.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 13:47:33 GMT -5
Ro 9:11 - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil"
Children are not born good. Neither are children born evil. They are both neither. Both good and evil are voluntary moral choices. Children are born neutral, neither good nor evil.
But children are born physically biased. From birth their bodies seek gratification. And the choice to submit to the flesh is developed long before the age of accountability comes, when their mind developes the idea of right and wrong.
So new borns are morally neutral, but physically biased.
Strong says that "constitution" is in reference to the physical "body".
To give a clearer answer, the King James translated the word "phusis" as "by nature". The Greek has "phusis" as one single word, the English has it in two words, "by nature".
"By nature" could also be tranlated "usage nature" or "use body" or "use constitution".
There is nothing wrong with the translation of "by nature" but most people do not know what "by" means.
Thus, we were children of wrath because of our usage of our bodies.
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Post by sermonindex on Mar 23, 2007 16:37:46 GMT -5
Sin is NOT moral choice alone. Moral choice can beget and relate to sin but sin is a spiritual condition and reality beyond a mere action. This carries through the bible such as "ekklesia" being not just a church building or a social group of set apart ones but it is a mystery and spiritual reality even though we see some of the physical manifestations of it.
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Post by sermonindex on Mar 23, 2007 16:42:38 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 16:47:59 GMT -5
The source of sin is the flesh, or the source of temptiation for sin is the flesh, the flesh (body) that we inherit from Adam.
But the only thing that is hereditary, that you can inherit from your parents, is your physical body. You cannot inherit your soul, nor guilt, from your parents - Ezekiel 18:2-4, 19-20; 2Kings 14:6; Deu 24:16; 2Chr 25:4. Because sin is not physical, you cannot inherit it from your parents. Your soul or spirit (with it's spiritual conditions) comes directly from God - Ezekiel 18.
But you do inherit a "body of death" or physical "death" from Adam - Romans 5, Romans 7.
That is why Children are born morally neutral, but physically biased:
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,)
Nobody is born morally good nor morally evil. But are morally neutral until they make voluntary choices. But we do inherit a physical body from our parents that have involuntary cravings and desires which can be gratified by sin.
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Post by tbxi on Mar 23, 2007 17:28:32 GMT -5
That is not what the verse is saying. The context is actually saying that God chose them regardless of having done anything good or evil before they were actually born (which supports unconditional election). It, in and of itself, says nothing of the topic you are reading into it.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 17:31:41 GMT -5
The moral condition of new borns was not the main point Paul was talking about in the chapter, but it was clearly a point he made obviously known "not yet...having done any good or evil". Of coarse, if they weren't born yet it was not possible for them to do good or evil.
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Post by tbxi on Mar 23, 2007 17:34:37 GMT -5
The moral condition of new borns was not the main point Paul was talking about in the chapter, but it was clearly a point he made obviously known "not yet...having done any good or evil". Of coarse, if they weren't born yet it was not possible for them to do good or evil. That's correct, but it says nothing as to the sinful nature of the infants once they are born, which is what you were alluding to.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 17:53:51 GMT -5
Once they are born, as in the womb, they have a depraved body, but they have no moral sin apart from their own moral volitions.
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Post by sermonindex on Mar 24, 2007 11:43:44 GMT -5
This is a unbiblical belief! Sin is the breaking of the laws of God and its a SPIRITUAL principle. Jesse you need to get your mind off this physical thinking and doctrine. Spiritual reality is all that christ and the apostles taught that results in moral and physical reality. The problem is a spiritual one not a moral physical one. Its like cleaning the cup with the inside still full of junk.
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Post by joem on Mar 25, 2007 21:01:07 GMT -5
Jesse you are doing fine work and I appreciate your commitment to discovering Biblical truth even when it is conflicting with reformed doctrines, which most often conflict with the views of the early Church fathers. Keep fighting the good fight as we will give an account for the revelation of scripture, not the writings of Calvin.
To say that the flesh causes us to sin is to deny every call to holy and upright living before God, making God's commandments and instructions a snare placed in order to cause us to sin. The body was nuetral in creation and Adam and Eve had the ability to choose to use their bodies as instruments of obedience or of sin. We have the same choice and while it is much easier to claim original sin, if we are to truly repent we must accept the fact that we have chosen by our own accord to transress the law of God. Part of the reason for the incarnation of Jesus was to show us that it could be done, man can live holy and reflect the image of God as he was created to do. Just because you haven't done so is no reason to blaim Adam and cry total depravity.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 26, 2007 15:39:04 GMT -5
Why is it that many "students of theology" end up with a big head and a shrunken heart? Why is it that very often those who study theology end up having their zeal decrease as their knowledge increases? It's because they are studying the wrong theology!! Any theology that does not make you fall more in love with God, that does not give you more zeal for prayer and more urgency for evangelism, is not a theology from God! But it is certainly a theology from the devil! I completely concur. I just wrote a complete scriptural tract on this found at: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1174940556&page=1
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Post by trustandobey on Mar 26, 2007 16:12:41 GMT -5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5 Scripture differs from your answer
.... And so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Romans 5:12
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the Children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. Psalm 14:2 - No neutrality
What is Sin - Sin is transgression of the Law (the Royal Law) [The 10 Commandments]
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17
The Spirit can not sin - because it is your breath - which goes back to the atmosphere upon death.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. [there is no classification of saved or loss here] so if our spirit is a ghost and we go to God at Death - then the saved and the wicked are with God.
What is the Spirit of Man
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
The Spirit of Man according to the Scripture is the Breath God gave at creation of Man. No Breath No life. We do not have a soul, we are the Living soul.
It came from Catholic theology that we are infused with a Soul. Not scriptural.
TrustandObey
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 26, 2007 16:19:43 GMT -5
The subject of this passage is David's mother, the object is David. The sinner in this passage is David's mother. She, in sin, gave birth to David.
I was born in Connecticut, but Connecticut wasn't born in me. David was born in sin, but sin was not born in him.
We inherit physical death from our parents. This is called physical depravity.
But we recieve spiritual death and eternal death because of our own sin, because of our own choices. This is moral depravity and eternal punishment.
All choose to sin. But nobody has to sin. Nobody needs to sin. Once a child reaches the age of accountability, he has already developed the habit or law of obeying the sensibilities. The sensibilities develope long before the mind developes. So everyone, by the time they reach the age of accountability, choose to continue the road of sin.
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Post by trustandobey on Mar 26, 2007 16:20:18 GMT -5
Hmmm.... The Third Commandments does not agree with you!
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generationof them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments
Sinful nature is Transfered according to the Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
The Cure -- The Goodness of God leads us to repentance.
If you love me Keep my Commandments
TrustandObey
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 26, 2007 16:23:11 GMT -5
If sin is something you inherit, what is this "something" that you inherit?
Augustine, who invented the doctrine, said it was your soul. But your soul comes from God, not your parents.
Others say it is in your blood. That is one of the more popular views. They said "you inherit your blood from your parents. Sin is in the blood. So you inherit original sin through the blood."
David Ravenhill told me that is what his bible college taught him. But he wrote a poem for his class that ended with "But if it stands to reason, that sin is in the blood, if you bump your chin, you loose your sin."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 26, 2007 16:24:52 GMT -5
This doesn't say upon all generations. But it says it ends after the third and fourth.
My understanding is that the physical affects of sin last only for a few generations. If your parents do drugs, you may inherit a physical craving for drugs. But this transfer or inheritance only last "unto the third and fourth generation".
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Post by trustandobey on Mar 26, 2007 16:31:52 GMT -5
Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Blood is not mentioned Here, scripture does not say if they had blood in their vains before Sin.
We do not have a soul, we are a living Soul - Dust plus breath we became a living Soul
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It does not say we are giving a soul but "a" living Soul.
And the Scriptures are clear we are shaped in Iniquity [Lawlessness] -
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24
Jesus Christ our Blessed Hope - Amen
TrustandObey
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Post by trustandobey on Mar 26, 2007 16:35:10 GMT -5
Amen to the Lords Mercy
The Point that I was making - that the Sins of the Father do transfer according to the Scripture - I do not understand it - but have witness such things
Because of the Mercy of the lord judgment does stop at the Third or Fourth - most likely because of a faithful God loving descendant.
TrustandObey
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 26, 2007 16:35:46 GMT -5
The scripture is clear that David's mother gave birth to him while she was in sin.
And the scripture is clear that we inherit a physical body of death, or a body subjected to death and disease, because of Adam.
"Blood is not mentioned Here, scripture does not say if they had blood in their vains before Sin."
Do you believe that sin is in the blood?
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Post by trustandobey on Mar 26, 2007 16:38:43 GMT -5
Brother, you ask a good question - I just do not have a biblical answer of yet - my intuition is yes - but just an intuition
TrustandObey
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 26, 2007 16:43:46 GMT -5
I am sure that you must be referencing these plain and obvious scriptures:
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"
2 Kings 14:6 "But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
2 Chronicles 25:4 "But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin."
Ezekiel 18:2-4 - "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Ezekiel 18:19-20 - "Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
It couldn't be more obvious that guilt and sin is tranfered from parent to child and that justice demands that children die for the sins of their parents. Isn't this clearly what these passages are saying??
So if I loose a little blood, do I loose a little sin? Can I put my blood under a microscope and have a look at it? If I have a blood transfusion, and the blood was from a man in the Mafia, am I guilty of his sins?
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