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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:07:03 GMT -5
"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (Gentiles): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. " (John 10:7-16)
Jesus is the door of the sheep, therefore if anyman enters in they are His sheep, as He is the door for only the sheep. Also notice here, Jesus gave His life for the sheep. This is a very convincing argument in the light of these next passages:
"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (v. 25-27)
Jesus clearly said in these passages that He laid down His life for His sheep, and also said that these people were not His sheep, so the only conclusion can be that Jesus did not lay down His life for these men.
Any and all who come in through the door of Jesus will find pasture, but He is the door of the sheep, and the sheep know Him and His voice, and follow in through the door. But these men didnt hear, or come, or believe as they are not Jesus sheep and since Jesus laid down His life for His sheep, and these men are not Jesus sheep, Jesus did not lay down His life for these men.
Is that right?
What do you all make of this? I cannot get around this passage - and any help would be great (Jack, Kerrigan, Steve, etc.)
-- Evan
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:29:43 GMT -5
bump
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 21:43:52 GMT -5
bump II
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 22, 2007 22:02:26 GMT -5
Ok, bumper. I agree with everything you just posted. Except your conclusion. Christ did give himself for the church, just as a man should his wife. It would seem odd, that if in the Gospel of John it's taught that Jesus only died for "his sheep" that in John's epistle he would say that He died, not only for ours, but for the whole world. 1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. I guess I don't see a problem with it. Maybe I'm not thinking about it hard enough? Or I'm just blinded by my own presuppositions?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 22, 2007 22:05:57 GMT -5
I see how you enter in the door is by believing him.
Here is something everyone agrees on: The atonement is limited to only those who believe. What I mean is that it is only applied to those who believe.
Did you check out that post I put up about the Red Heifer?
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 22:06:31 GMT -5
I know, and that is what I say as well. But what of John 10 - How is that reconciled?
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 22:07:04 GMT -5
Those men BELIEVED NOT because they were not His sheep.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 22, 2007 22:16:05 GMT -5
I'll put more thought into it and try to post later.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 22, 2007 22:21:17 GMT -5
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 23, 2007 0:10:37 GMT -5
bump III
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 14:36:28 GMT -5
This is a great question Evan. An answer to it is very important.
The scripture I used to use for "Limited Atonement" when I was a Calvinist was this:
John 15:13-14 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."
Here was my reasoning:
1. Jesus died for his friends 2. Those who obey Him are his friends 3. Therefore Christ died only for his friends, only those He foreknew would obey him.
Point 1 is scripture.
Point 2 is scripture.
Point 3 is conjecture or inference. It's nothing other then an assumption.
It is true that Christ died for His friends. It is true that Christ those who obey Him are His friends. But nowhere does this scripture say that he died exclusively for His friends. Actually, the scripture says He also died for His enemies.
The same is true with John chapter 10.
It says:
1. Christ died for His sheep 2. The Pharisees were not of His fold
But nowhere does this passage say that He died only or exclusively for His sheep, for those who follow Him. That is an assumption, inference, conjecture, but not scripture.
Anyone who doesn't believe is not Christ's sheep. I was not His sheep, He was not my Shephard, when I was a sinner. Only those who follow the Shephard are His sheep (John 10:27), those who do not follow are not of His fold, but are astray.
The reasoning that "Christ died for His sheep, therefore He died only for His sheep" is nowhere in John 10. The first is scripture: Christ died for His sheep. The second is conjecture or inference: Christ died only for His sheep.
It is very dangerous to isolate certain scriptures, to the ignorance of the rest of scriptures, to build an entire doctrine. Heresies like Limited Atonement are built that way. And many genuine Christians have been decieved by such practices.
Evangelism and preaching is greatly affected by Limited Atonement. You cannot tell anyone that "Christ died for you" with any confidence or certainty. Neither can a Christian have any true assurance of salvation, because how can you be certain Christ actually died for you? We tell men to believe. But to believe what? Believe that Christ died for them. But if Christ didn't die for everyone, what are we telling them to believe? We couldn't tell them to believe that Christ died for them.
Here are 17 verses that says Christ died for everyone. They are scripturally clear. No conjecture or inference or assumption is needed to come to the conclusion that Christ died for everyone.
[glow=red,2,300]Should we interpret these 17 scriptures by those other 2, or should we interpret those other 2 by these 17? [/glow]
I affirm the latter.
Isa 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "
John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(Which note, if "world" is interpreted "elect" then "God sent not His son into the elect"?)
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
1John 2:1 "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence F20 of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
2Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
Heb 2:9 - "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
1 Timothy2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1Timothy 2:6 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
1John 4:15 "the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1Timothy 4:10 "We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe."
Truth is, "Limited Atonement" is a conjecture, inference, assumption, a logical conclusion or philosophy, but it is not the clear and basic teaching of the scriptures. The clear and basic teaching of the scriptures, without any theological bias in interpretation, is that Christ died so that everyone might be, or could be, saved.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2007 15:17:09 GMT -5
This Scripture in John 10 is definitely NOT talking about the atonement at all. It is talking about the shepherd's relationship to the sheep. The fold is representative of those who are Christians, who are His sheep. I would encourage everyone to read up on what it is like to be a shepherd of sheep. Rod (my father-in-law) has a book that I read a little bit on this subject. he has studied it and knows much more about it then I do. I will give a stab at it though and try to do it clearly. Laying His life down for His sheep is not talking about the Cross or Christ dying. You see, a sheepfold was a closed in pen that was surrounded by rocks. The walls were usually pretty high. Therefore, the only way for someone to get into the fold was through a small doorway called the gate. Guess who slept in the gateway? That's right, the shepherd. For anyone to get in or out of the sheepfold, they would have to go over him. Thus the saying, "over my dead body." We literally go into the sheepfold over His dead body. Laying His life down for the sheep was just a way of Christ saying that He is the kind of shepherd who will protect His sheep. He will never leave them nor forsake them. He is a permanent shepherd (for all those that want Him as one). He is not a hireling who just does it for the money. He is willing to risk His life for the sheep and do whatever is needed for them. I think that is about it. Hope that helps...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 15:24:35 GMT -5
That is very, very interesting. Thanks a lot! Definately something to consider.
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Post by tbxi on Mar 23, 2007 16:52:26 GMT -5
Jesse, concerning your list of "all" and "world" statements interpreted to mean every person without exclusion, I suggest you take a look at and respond to what I said in the free will thread you recently started.
Also, you refer to limited atonement as heresy. What do you mean by this? I do not use the word lightly. Heresy, by definition, is damnable. It would be absurd for one to call the Calvinist doctrine damnable heresy.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 23, 2007 17:05:51 GMT -5
I do damn the doctrine, though not the decieved preachers who preach it. I believe many genuine and sincere Christians (our Calvinist brethren like the Puritans) have been decieved into it.
But I find the doctrine completely repulsive and unbiblical. And I call it heresy very seriously. I am not trying to be spiteful or hurt anyone. But I am deadly serious that it's dangerous to preach such things.
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Post by evanandliz on Mar 24, 2007 0:13:14 GMT -5
This Scripture in John 10 is definitely NOT talking about the atonement at all. It is talking about the shepherd's relationship to the sheep. The fold is representative of those who are Christians, who are His sheep. I would encourage everyone to read up on what it is like to be a shepherd of sheep. Rod (my father-in-law) has a book that I read a little bit on this subject. he has studied it and knows much more about it then I do. I will give a stab at it though and try to do it clearly. Laying His life down for His sheep is not talking about the Cross or Christ dying. You see, a sheepfold was a closed in pen that was surrounded by rocks. The walls were usually pretty high. Therefore, the only way for someone to get into the fold was through a small doorway called the gate. Guess who slept in the gateway? That's right, the shepherd. For anyone to get in or out of the sheepfold, they would have to go over him. Thus the saying, "over my dead body." We literally go into the sheepfold over His dead body. Laying His life down for the sheep was just a way of Christ saying that He is the kind of shepherd who will protect His sheep. He will never leave them nor forsake them. He is a permanent shepherd (for all those that want Him as one). He is not a hireling who just does it for the money. He is willing to risk His life for the sheep and do whatever is needed for them. I think that is about it. Hope that helps... That is good brother and I thank you for that. -- Evan
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 24, 2007 8:39:57 GMT -5
This Scripture in John 10 is definitely NOT talking about the atonement at all. It is talking about the shepherd's relationship to the sheep. The fold is representative of those who are Christians, who are His sheep. I would encourage everyone to read up on what it is like to be a shepherd of sheep. Rod (my father-in-law) has a book that I read a little bit on this subject. he has studied it and knows much more about it then I do. I will give a stab at it though and try to do it clearly. Laying His life down for His sheep is not talking about the Cross or Christ dying. You see, a sheepfold was a closed in pen that was surrounded by rocks. The walls were usually pretty high. Therefore, the only way for someone to get into the fold was through a small doorway called the gate. Guess who slept in the gateway? That's right, the shepherd. For anyone to get in or out of the sheepfold, they would have to go over him. Thus the saying, "over my dead body." We literally go into the sheepfold over His dead body. Laying His life down for the sheep was just a way of Christ saying that He is the kind of shepherd who will protect His sheep. He will never leave them nor forsake them. He is a permanent shepherd (for all those that want Him as one). He is not a hireling who just does it for the money. He is willing to risk His life for the sheep and do whatever is needed for them. I think that is about it. Hope that helps... That is good brother and I thank you for that. -- Evan My pleasure to offer the insight the Lord has allowed me to have. Here is the book that I am referring to. Although I haven't read the whole thing, the parts that I have read were great and very insightful: www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=863514&netp_id=358267&event=ESRCN&item_code=WWIf I remember correctly, the author, Phil Keller, was a shepherd himself at one point in time. People of Jesus' day would have understood this analogy of the sheep and the shepherd perfectly. We in the western world miss out on what the Scripture is say so many times because we don't come from the same world that Christ preached in...
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Post by sermonindex on Mar 24, 2007 11:36:10 GMT -5
I am living on the same Island right now where Philip Keller had a farm and raised sheep. His works are excellent.
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