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Post by tbxi on Mar 27, 2007 21:33:39 GMT -5
NIV: 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
NASB: 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Amplified: 8If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
KJV: 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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This is enough translations. We have two very literal translations (KJV and NASB), a more thought-for-thought translation (NIV) and the Amplified, which is a unique animal, as it's intended to purvey the meaning of the original Greek in English by stating things in several ways in order to try to defeat the sad impreciseness of the English language.
The bottom line is: There is absolutely no way for a Christian to claim that he is completely, entirely without sin.
If you proclaim that you are without sin or that the gospel makes it possible for a person to become, on this earth, completely free of the taint of sin, then the truth is not in you.
I posted this because of the recent "perfection" newsletter posted by Jesse, and frankly it makes me feel sick.
Whatever your interpretations of other verses are, I don't think it could get any clearer that they are to be interpreted according to this one - as it is about as clear and general as it gets.
Discuss.
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Mar 28, 2007 0:16:33 GMT -5
Your right it does make perfect sense.
Christians sin everyday - that is why we need a daily cleansing (v9).
This is not a licence to sin. We are called to live holy, pure lives etc.
If we continue in a particuar sin then God will chastise us and/or we will lose our rewards. - NOT OUR SALVATION.
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Post by bullhornbob on Mar 28, 2007 1:31:09 GMT -5
tbxi,
I John is meant to be read as an entire epistle. Other verses in the very same chapter clearly deal with walking free from sin. How can you not see that?
This portion of the epistle is actually for those who do not understand why John is engaging this church. It deals with those who do not see the need for repentance, ie, v5- This then is the message........also;
v.5 - God is light, no darkness in Him. v.6 - If we SAY we have fellowship w/Him and WALK IN DARKNESS, we are liars v.7 - ALL SIN is cleansed if we walk WITH HIM
Frankly, I am surprised that you so openly accuse others of erroneous exegete, when you are clearly isolating one verse and building a false doctrine from it.
Again, the entire epistle must be considered. How do you deal with 2:1,6, 3:4-10? I could go on!
Or how about Hebrews 10:26-29?
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I have studied this for a couple of years, and I see a little clearer now than before. I certainly do not believe Christians are unable to choose to sin. I can wake up tomorrow and run back to all of my old ways, if I so choose.
But this is the clincher - I DON'T WANT TO! I WANT TO SERVE JESUS! I HAVE A NEW HEART, BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST. I NOW LIVE TO OBEY HIM. WHY WOULD I WANT TO SIN ANYMORE?
Romans 8:2 says I am FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH! PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDROUS WORKS!
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Post by bullhornbob on Mar 28, 2007 1:47:01 GMT -5
Your right it does make perfect sense. Christians sin everyday - that is why we need a daily cleansing (v9). This is not a licence to sin. We are called to live holy, pure lives etc. If we continue in a particuar sin then God will chastise us and/or we will lose our rewards. - NOT OUR SALVATION. So JH, if I read your response correctly, it is OK for Christians to sin and still inherit eternal life, but sinners sin and go to the lake of fire? And we just lose our rewards? Chapter and verse please, as you would say. You also say Christians sin everyday, I say - Speak for yourself. The same epistle says that he who sins is of the devil. Can I be a Christian and of the devil at the same time? Can you not sin for one second, or one minute? How about one hour, or maybe a day? If you can go without sinning for one day, can you go a week, or a month, or even a year without sinning? With man it is impossible - But with God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. This doctrine of "we are all born sinners, Christians sin every day, we cannot stop sinning" is all a bunch of lies from the father of lies. I am in Christ, and I am free from sin. It does not mean that I cannot choose to sin. The propensity to sin has been removed by Christ. I am full of the Holy Ghost, and I walk in Him. I no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh, nor give it any provision. I say this very humbly, and in no way want to seem arrogant or proud. That would be a work of the flesh. I am zealous for the Lord, and His truth. Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
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Post by Grant on Mar 28, 2007 1:55:06 GMT -5
I'm not a perfectionist, but I do have some strong feelings about how loosely Christians treat holiness and sin. And perhaps because of what I've been exposed to in my past, I tend to get more firm on the looser stands. I understand we might sin unknowingly at first, but once we realize what we're doing, our first action is to turn around immediately. But to say we sin daily, what sin are you not able to keep from falling into on a daily basis? (that's an honest question) How do you read 1 Cor 10:13? Now back to John, was he saying "I sin everyday" or was he admitting to having sin in him as being still having urges towards sin? We know John is still in the same fallen body, the same fallen world, being tempted and he probably feels those urges still. He doesn't forget about all the lusts of the world, they're still in his memory, and the short pleasures they brought are real to him still. But where is the victory over sin if we continue to daily live in sin? (btw, the tone doesn't come through in the post, but my questions are sincere, not to question your faith or judge you) Blessings
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Post by tbxi on Mar 28, 2007 9:08:01 GMT -5
bullhornbob, I am going to look at some commentaries, I am sure there are subtleties in the greek that we are not understanding, and that will clarify this - English is such a poor language. At first glance, verses 7 and 8 right next to each other do not seem to make sense. You have basically said that verse 7 trumps whatever we may get out of verse 8, what is your reason for this? It is still a problem of interpretation for you, as it is for me - I am still going to look into it You reference verses later on in the book, but I still have to ask you how you deal with 1:8. It seems to contradict your doctrine of perfectionism just as much as you seem to believe these verses contradict mine. Also - I am not doing this in order to create a license for sin. It is very clear that we are not to use our liberty in Christ to sin. I believe that, and so do you, so we are good there.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 28, 2007 14:52:37 GMT -5
If I confess my sins, at that very moment am I cleansed from my sin? If that it true, then how can it always be true, at every moment of time, that I "have sin?"
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Post by bullhornbob on Mar 29, 2007 0:38:35 GMT -5
bullhornbob, I am going to look at some commentaries, I am sure there are subtleties in the greek that we are not understanding, and that will clarify this - English is such a poor language. At first glance, verses 7 and 8 right next to each other do not seem to make sense. You have basically said that verse 7 trumps whatever we may get out of verse 8, what is your reason for this? It is still a problem of interpretation for you, as it is for me - I am still going to look into it You reference verses later on in the book, but I still have to ask you how you deal with 1:8. It seems to contradict your doctrine of perfectionism just as much as you seem to believe these verses contradict mine. Also - I am not doing this in order to create a license for sin. It is very clear that we are not to use our liberty in Christ to sin. I believe that, and so do you, so we are good there. T, Forget the commentaries. They are a waste of time. Maybe other's opinions could benefit at some point and time when God gives direction, but in the infancy of our understanding, it is always best to draw from the pure milk of the word. I state this for myself as well. Please do not misunderstand me. My biblical understanding, for SOOOOO long, was always filtered through what someone "told me" or what I had as my opinion. Only when I laid down my foolish pride, and began to humbly search the scriptures, and asked the HOLY GHOST to teach me, accompanied by my OBEDIENCE to the commands of Jesus, did I begin to realize the following verse: John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.This verse, in context, explains a true convert's heart. It is to obey. Nothing else matters. There is a complete abandonment of self, and of will, to God. It goes on, and in fact the entire chapter, is loaded with pure instruction and teaching from the Christ! You are mistaken in your assumption that I say any part of the Bible trumps/cancels out any other part of the Bible (II Timothy 3:16). You also accuse me of having a doctrine of perfectionism. This word is so taboo with "christians" today. What are you afraid of, God accusing you of trying to be like Him? (Ephesians 5:1) I have no problem with I John 1:8. I have acknowledged my sin, confessed it, forsaken it, and God has shown me mercy (Proverbs 28:13). This is the best way I can explain it to you: As I stated in my first reply, the epistle is meant to be read as a whole, not necessarily verse by verse. It is good to read the letter line by line, but it is more enriching and revealing of the author's intention when read in it's entirety. John seems to oscillate in his writing, as vv. 5, 7, and 9 obviously state one point, while vv. 6, 8, and 10 seem to drive home the other point. It is almost as if John is declaring the same conclusion 3 times in a row. Please read and re-read for clarity. I am in no way professing that I have extracted all the truth from this portion of canon. But in light of the entire epistle, and I hesitate to say "this is the overriding theme", I actually see Chapter 2, verse 1, as just that. 1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: I also would like to add that among all those who post here, you are one of the FEW who can debate with any sense of maturity and civility. This is not a stamp of approval concerning WHAT you believe, but a BIG THUMBS UP on your part for your debating etiquette. ;D EDIT: You never responded to my Hebrews 10:26-29 reference!
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Mar 29, 2007 0:40:56 GMT -5
1 Cor 15:11-15
2 Cor 5:10
We will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Some of our works will go up in flames eg) going witnessing with the wrong motive etc.
If I wanted to I could go and rob a bank and still go to Heaven - I am in God, He is in me. There is nothing I can do to get out of salvation.
Of course I wouldn't do that because I want to obey Him.
1 Cor 11 deals with the Lord's supper and it clearly shows that there were some who had sin in their lives and were not willing to deal with it. So God chastised them -
'For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.' (1 Cor 11:30)
So when was the last time you sinned?
You ever thought that maybe just maybe 1 John was not written directly to Christians in the Church Age? Practically we can apply truths from it but doctrinally it is not for us. Why don't you get your doctrine from the Pauline epistles. Oh yeah thats right you can't show in the Pauline epistles that when you are saved you no longer sin and become perfect because the greatest apostle of them all was not perfect.
When we got saved we had a spiritual circumcision take place within us. God's seed is in us and I agree that can never sin, but you are forgetting about your flesh - it has not yet been redeemed, only your Spirit has.
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Post by tbxi on Apr 1, 2007 23:10:17 GMT -5
T, Forget the commentaries. They are a waste of time. Maybe other's opinions could benefit at some point and time when God gives direction, but in the infancy of our understanding, it is always best to draw from the pure milk of the word. I state this for myself as well. I am sorry but I think this is absurd. It seems that a young believer would benefit well from good commentaries and counsel from a person who can understand the koine greek of the new testament. The original greek IS the pure milk of the word in its purest and most concentrated form - English is more like a murky and sour mix of 1%, 2%, Whole, Skim, ... do you get the idea? Greek is a far more precise and complex language than English, and verb tenses are huge, especially in 1 John. The "plain sense reading" of the text that you are advocating causes one to affirm contradictions, as you said that verse 7 says we can clearly be ENTIRELY without sin. The problem with merely stating this is that by the same "plain sense" hermeneutic in English, verse 8 seems to directly contradict this. In the greek it does not, but english is just a poor language in comparison and that is why there is confusion here. I also think that the whole idea of "Just rely [on the verse I tell you to!] on the Holy Spirit in order to interpret the verse!" without looking at any commentaries on the original languages (i.e. writings of people who are probably more wise when it comes to the subject than you if you are even needing help with interpretation) is not all that of a good one. The Holy Spirit indeed illuminates us, but God has also provided us with a rich history of godly men who know a whole lot more than you or I so that those of us who are not fluent in koine Greek can actually get into the nitty gritty if we want to. Merely depending on what one thinks is the Holy Spirit telling him this or that, while sometimes helpful, can also sometimes lead to heresies. I think it also denies Sola Scriptura, because God has already given us all the revelation we need in Scripture. We do not need new revelation because as 2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, all Scripture is sufficient for equipping the man of God for every good work (which includes a proper exegesis of the text!). I am sorry but it is wrong to assume that there is foolish pride in searching the wisdom and understanding of people who are far more learned in the grammar of the original language - if that is indeed what you are doing. Again I see here an implication that anybody who doesn't come to your conclusion is simply in sin, which is an abusive ad hominem argument. John 14:21 is not under consideration here, I would have to do some more research to cover that - but the conclusions drawn here from the same author's epistle should help to clear up the meaning of 'keepeth'. It really isn't that clear in the english. How can you say, as is, that v. 8 is simply "oscillating" with the surrounding verses? V. 8 says that he who says he has no sin is a liar. V. 7 says Christ cleanses from all sin. I will copy in a very interesting portion of a commentary in this, here: the greek words will be transliterated into english as best as I know how. This is all taken from "The Letters of John the Apostle" by Donald W. Bunthingy. 1:7. έάν δέ έν τώ φωτί περιπατώμεν, "but if we walk in the light." The second hypothetical case is positive in nature. It concerns walking in the light in contrast with the practice of walking in darkness. Here again the verb περιπατώμεν is a present tense, which indicates a habitual pattern of life. Life is living in the sphere (έν τώ φωτί, locative case) of the light. The article points out a particular light, and in this case looks back to the nature of God who is light (v. 5). To walk in the light is to live in the sphere characterized by truth and holiness that come from God and are therefore God-like.
ώς αΰτός έστιν έν τώ φωτί, "as He Himself is in the light." Not only does John describe God as being light (v.5), but he adds that God is in the light (cf. 1 Tim. 6:16). He exists in the sphere of truth and holiness, and therefore our lives are to be lived in that same sphere. That the reference is to God the Father is evident from the description of Jesus as υίόΰ αΰτοΰ, "His Son." The presence of the pronoun αΰτός, "He Himself," is emphatic.
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καί τό αίμα 'Іησοΰ τοΰ υίοΰ αΰτοΰ καθαριζει ημάς άπό πάσης άμαρτίας, "and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." The better Greek manuscripts (aleph, B, C) omit χριστοΰ (Christ). The remaining expression τοΰ Іησοΰ τοΰ υίοΰ αΰτοΰ, "of Jesus His Son", is thus an assertion directed against Cerinthus who distinguished between the man Jesus and the divine Son. The verb καθαριζει, "cleanses," being in the present tense, speaks of a linear action just as does περιπατώμεν, "we are walking." The habit of continually walking in the light is accompanied by a continual cleansing from sin as opposed to a once-for-all cleansing sometimes called positional sanctification (which occurs at justification).
After describing what some of the Corinthians once where (fornicators, idolators, adulterers, etc.), Paul says, "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified" (1 Cor. 6:11). Each of those verbs is in the aorist tense, indicative mood, depicting an action that had occurred at a point in the past. At the time when the Corinthian believers had first trusted Christ they were washed clean. However, in addition to positional sanctification the believer experiences progressive sanctification, which involves a continuing growth in holiness as sin is purged from the life. That καθαριζει refers to progressive sanctification rather than positional sanctification (or justification) is indicated by its present tense form. This interpretation is confirmed by verse 9 where καθαριζω occurs in conjunction with [the word for - I'm getting tired of using character map to do the greek justice] "forgive." The cleansing is thus distinguished from forgiveness.
[One more thing...]
πάσης άμαρτίας, "all sin," because of the absence of the article, means every in the sense of any. It is not every last sin, but any sin that may occur (James Hope Moulton, A Grammar of New Testament Greek, 4 vols.: vol. 3: Syntax, by Nigel Turner, p. 199). This is the same as saying that the construction stresses kind rather than particular identity. There is no sin, whatever its nature or degree, that is beyond the cleansing power of the blood of God's Son.
1:8. "if we say that we have no sin." The important question here concerns the precise meaning of "sin." Law insists that John referes to the guilt of sin. However, when this verse is compared with verse 10 (greek for "we have not sinned") it appears more reasonable to view verse 8 as having to do with the principle of sin [i.e. original sin] and verse 10 the acts of sin. This denial of the depravity of sin is tantamount to denying that one is a sinner. The present tense speaks, not of the past unregenerate state when unbelieveres might have refused to recognize sin's reality, but of the present state of professing believers who make such a denial. THis claim is probably the response of the Gnostic to the accusation that he is walking in the darkness (v.6). This is just saying that the apostle wishes us not to sin. Not that it is possible for us to be utterly sinless in our earthly bodies - this would contradict what he said just before. Thank you. Your "plain" reading of this verse seems to prove too much. If I just take it at "face value" as I'm often told to do, it seems to say that once you sin willfully you're out of the kingdom for good. This idea is obviously false, as it contradicts 1 John 1:9. Also a few verses later in Hebrews 10, we have: "39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Thus I would conclude that those described in verses 26-29 are hypothetical much like those in Hebrews 6, where we have: "4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. " Verse 9 here likewise clears up any confusion about these people actually being able to lose their salvation, and the previous verses (and those in ch. 10) indicate that if they did, it would be gone FOREVER (caps for emphasis). Since those in your camp believe that people lose their salvation as soon as they sin, as far as I know (well it's what Micah and Jesse believe, anyway), how do you handle this? Also I have a more general question. If you really believe you are totally holy right now, then what room do you have for growth? How can a Christian grow spiritually if he or she is already totally morally perfect? PS. I am not throwing around the term "perfection" as a pejorative, just so you know. It is just the term that describes the sort of beliefs those who believe we can be morally perfect hold to.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 2, 2007 10:42:59 GMT -5
I've heard of that interpretation before. But wouldn't that contridict Romans 6 where it says our old man was cruicified with Christ? If it is true that we still have a sinful nature, how does that fall into "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. " Does that make this verse really mean "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he has had added a new creature: parts of the old have passed away; behold, most things have become new?"
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Post by dmatic on Apr 4, 2007 13:53:54 GMT -5
tbxi wrote: I don't believe the verse says that. I think it simply says that if one continues to sin willfully...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..but a certain expectation of judgment...
Interestingly, there was, to my knowledge, no sacrifices for willful sin in the "OT" either. Nor are there sacrifices for intentional sin in the "New". If a brother chooses to willfully rob a bank....he may get to heaven someday.....but not before he suffers the penalty of his willful sin.
This brother who contemplates robbing the bank, should know that this sin, is not "covered", and he will be held liable for its payment.
Earlier, txbi wrote:
I doubt that any on this board has proclaimed that they are without sin...yet. However, to proclaim that the gospel makes it possible for a person to become, on this earth, completely cleansed and free from the taint of sin should make no one sick! That IS the message of the gospel! Are you preaching another?
Peace, dmatic
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Post by tbxi on Apr 4, 2007 14:09:20 GMT -5
Jesse has said that a person is either entirely holy or entirely sinful, and that there is no middle ground. I doubt he would say that he is entirely sinful, as he considers himself a Christian, and he also considers a Christian to be one who is "entirely holy". Therefore, yes, people have proclaimed that they are without sin. Jesse thinks that Jesus' command for us to live up to the Father's standard means that we can actually do it. This is an assumption that he simply makes because it "seems" or sounds right to him - he has not been able to prove that "ought" implies "can", and I have asked him many times.
Did you miss my post?
I already posted a lot of information on bullhornbob's usage of 1 John 1:7 and the proper reading of 1 John 1:8. It precludes the idea that anybody is sinless on this earth. So yes, the idea makes me sick because it is tantamount to Scripture and it is based on false assumptions and poor reasoning. Ultimately one can be deceived by this teaching into thinking that they will reach heaven based on their own righteousness or performance, and this is d**nable heresy.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 4, 2007 14:19:49 GMT -5
It doesn't always lead to that. If you view it as Christ cleansing you of your sin, it is impossible for you ro think it was your own righteousness. Although I agree that it is possible to take a teaching similar and make it horrible. This is why I don't like this "yesterday you were out, today you are in, tomorrow... well we will find out" thinking.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 4, 2007 15:16:37 GMT -5
As I read my Key Word Study Bible is see that the words for sin in verse 1:8 and 2:1 are two similar but different words.
In 1 John 1:8 the word "sin" is Strong's #266 "hamartia" and in verse 2:1 where is says "sin not" it is Strong's #264 "hamartano".
The second #264 is the word that refers to the deed of a sin, missing a mark. So if we find that we have missed a mark, even as the Holy Spirit convict us that we have committed a sin, this is what we are to confess and forsake, if we commit them.
On the other hand #266 in the Strong's Greek dictionary is defined as having offense or sinful. I believe verse 1:8 is saying that if we deny we don't we the possibility to be sinful (at some point in the future) we deceive ourselves, and therefore the truth of that is not within us.
The Apostles knew of this, that is why there are so many warnings to us to avoid falling away, to holdfast, to keep things in memory........ Just as those in the OT could fall back to unbelief (#270) to become disobedient, to become unfaithful: these can only only be accomplished for one that is first obedient or was once faithful. If a person was never obedient or faithful, they could never become disodenient or become unfaithful.
Tyler is correct in his interpretation that the Greek is deeper than English. Yet I concur also with the one who said to avoid commentaries, only because everyone is "prejudice" and it can come out in their interpretations of God's word.
This is why we must pray and seek the Holy Spirit for guidance.
My positions on this have changed as I started to study the Greek words directly for myself. I highly recommend the Key Word Study Bible (in KJ, only because it is a direct translation and that it ties well with Strong's). Then I recommend a Interlinear Greek/English version of the NT like Green's, because it has no commentary, but does give you the remaining words of the Greek and their Strong's #, so you can look up every word of a sentence. Realize that some translated words from Greek become 2 or more words in English.
Lastly Brothers, if we are born again, having the Spirit in dwelling, we will not want to sin (264) anymore. I know that is true for me and hope that is true for you all. When I stumble still, it really bothers me and I quickly head for the mercy of His cleansing Blood.
I appreciate His sufferings and death and so act now like I really do consider Him precious. I don't want to trodden under foot His blood, nor should anyone who calls on the Father, but live now this pilgrimage in fear (phobos), thanking God for that fear which cause me to have understanding and discretion which preserves me and keeps me (Proverbs 2:11).
The fear of God is so very important, I pray you all will seek after it, as you know Him more and more. Proverbs 2 is a great study in "if's", "and's" and "then's".
Holiness will matter on judgment day, not just a positional type which can't be seen, but true holiness of walk and actions.
I love God, so I now live for Him. I have no rights, nor want any. I am a slave now to righteousness, and was a slave to sin. I was a slave to sin, but was delivered and now can obey from clean new heart (Romans 6:17), but obedience remains the key measure of that love. It also is a quality which will be required for salvation which is an "eternal type" (Hebrews 5:9) (Rev. 14:12).
God doesn't change from OT to NT and said mixed into the 10 Commandments:
Exodus 20:6 "And showing mercy unto thousands of them which love me, and keep my commandments."
If you don't believe that is still true, I pity your very soul! Do not just presume upon God's mercy, now that you have "received Him": instead love and obey Him.
Like a women is to obey her husband, understands that that word "obey" is so predetermined that it is described as a reflex to obey.
Is your mind transformed so that you have disciplined (discipleship) your mind to be ready to obey as a reflex; or at least take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5). If you are not there, don't get mad, or challenge me, but instead repent and be converted!
Just as we cannot reach heaven on just our own righteousness and preformance; but need the pardon of Jesus Christ and continued covering of sin; we are also foolish to think we can get to heaven without our lives being converted so that they become righteous and full of good works, by His power, and proving our conversion was real.
Satan has many fooled to think they headed to heaven when they are still in rebellion to the Father in their lives. They feel "accepting Jesus" gives them grounds for salvation. They feel they now possess it, like a title deed to a property which cannot be ever taken away. They refuse to accept that scripture identifies conditions, and situations in which others have, by their own actions, defaulted on the covenant. Jesus doesn't break His word, ever! But we can and sad even Paul describes many who did.
Of the millions of Jews that left Egypt, how many do you think will be in heaven?
Likewise, of they one that "come to Jesus" how many do you really think will be in heaven?
Those Jews who fell away, became unfaithful and disobedient and didn't just loose rewards. Don't be so foolish. Does God love His Christian sons, more that His Jewish ones? (see article on my web site of that same Title for in depth thoughts and scripture on that).
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Post by darcobedient2jesus on Apr 4, 2007 15:24:18 GMT -5
So, in light of the discussion so far how would those who think it's not possible to attain "Christian Perfection" view and/or interpret what Jesus told us in Mt. 5:48- "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."?
Do any of you really believe that God would tell us to do something if it weren't possible to do? I say, No! If God said it's possible then it's possible. I've been studying this for quite some time now and quite frankly the entire Bible is full of the expectations/teachings/exhortations for the children of God to walk in this manner. Jesus came to atone for sin, yes, however He also came to restore us unto the state from which we fell and that is in the image of God...perfect. When it is said of Him that He came to destroy the works of the Devil and to take away the sin of the world then He is both capable and willing to do just that for those that truly desire to honor their Lord and Savior to that degree. It is there for those who dare step out away from their pride and concern for themselves, who don't care what the cost is or what others think. We should never deny the possibility for Christian Perfect because we would be denying the very power of our risen Savior!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 4, 2007 15:34:21 GMT -5
So, in light of the discussion so far how would those who think it's not possible to attain "Christian Perfection" view and/or interpret what Jesus told us in Mt. 5:48- "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."? Do any of you really believe that God would tell us to do something if it weren't possible to do? I say, No! If God said it's possible then it's possible. I've been studying this for quite some time now and quite frankly the entire Bible is full of the expectations/teachings/exhortations for the children of God to walk in this manner. Jesus came to atone for sin, yes, however He also came to restore us unto the state from which we fell and that is in the image of God...perfect. When it is said of Him that He came to destroy the works of the Devil and to take away the sin of the world then He is both capable and willing to do just that for those that truly desire to honor their Lord and Savior to that degree. It is there for those who dare step out away from their pride and concern for themselves, who don't care what the cost is or what others think. We should never deny the possibility for Christian Perfect because we would be denying the very power of our risen Savior! I know a man that once said something to this effect: "Do I know Christian Perfection? Yes! I meet Him quite often."
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Post by darcobedient2jesus on Apr 4, 2007 15:38:53 GMT -5
God doesn't change from OT to NT and said mixed into the 10 Commandments: Exodus 20:6 "And showing mercy unto thousands of them which love me, and keep my commandments." If you don't believe that is still true, I pity your very soul! Do not just presume upon God's mercy, now that you have "received Him": instead love and obey Him. Like a women is to obey her husband, understands that that word "obey" is so predetermined that it is described as a reflex to obey. Is your mind transformed so that you have disciplined (discipleship) your mind to be ready to obey as a reflex; or at least take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5). If you are not there, don't get mad, or challenge me, but instead repent and be converted! Just as we cannot reach heaven on just our own righteousness and preformance; but need the pardon of Jesus Christ and continued covering of sin; we are also foolish to think we can get to heaven without our lives being converted so that they become righteous and full of good works, by His power, and proving our conversion was real. Satan has many fooled to think they headed to heaven when they are still in rebellion to the Father in their lives. They feel "accepting Jesus" gives them grounds for salvation. They feel they now possess it, like a title deed to a property which cannot be ever taken away. They refuse to accept that scripture identifies conditions, and situations in which others have, by their own actions, defaulted on the covenant. Jesus doesn't break His word, ever! But we can and sad even Paul describes many who did. I agree brother and I would add one verse to attach to what you've said and that is 1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." It's all about obedience after initial salvation. Obedience to the Spirit of God. Without it and without holiness no one will see the Lord.
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Post by tbxi on Apr 4, 2007 16:30:39 GMT -5
I realize it doesn't always - that is why I said ultimately. The thing is, though, it should. The only reason people don't always go to that conclusion is because they may genuinely be saved and simply confused. If someone truly thinks it is their own righteousness and cooperation with God that allows them into Heaven then they are lost and hellbound. This is what I have heard from people on this board several times. Of course, they do not say it that way - they say that it's their (free will, of course!) job to repent and be forgiven and that therefore it isn't them that is saving themselves, but Jesus who is saving them - BUT the onus of their salvation in this case lies entirely on them and thus they are responsible for fulfilling their "end of the deal" - in essence, saving themselves by their choice to repent. This is what I mean. The conclusion we are driven to with synergism is that we are our own saviors and that Jesus can't save anybody without their free will being "wooed" towards Him or however they want to say it.
This is twisting the words of the verse. I do not know what the KJ greek text says, and I do not want to get into that debate again, as I am not prepared to do so. However - it does not say "if we deny we have the ability to be sinful, we deceive ourselves". It says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves". Have. Present tense. It isn't talking about potential.
The Key Word Study Bible you are using has gone through a process by which people wrote out the translations of words. No one here is without ubias, no one here is without prejudice, and not only is the "potential to sin" gist of your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 simply not found in ANY translations that I've ever seen, it is heavily based on your pre-existing commitment to the idea of sinless perfection, lack of original sin, "ought implies can", and so on and so forth.
Please keep in mind I am not using this comparison in order to insult you - but the Mormons think the same thing. They base their beliefs on their personal testimony of what they think is the "Holy Spirit" working in them to convince them of the truth of the book of mormon and the prophethood of Joseph Smith. What you are saying basically boils down to the same thing - that instead of reading books and scholarly opinions about these verses, I should depend on the burning in my bosom, a subjective and fallible way of knowing the meaning of the verse.
Infused righteousness - this is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. If you believe this then there is no way for you to say that you do not lose your salvation when you "slip up". You can lose your salvation multiple times every day, in fact - and of course, regain it when you confess your sin and ask for forgiveness - making your salvation totally dependent on what you do. This is "eternal insecurity" and should rightly cause a Christian to be living in constant fear. The only reason you do not live in this constant fear, I believe, is because you likely are a genuine Christian, and you do truly trust in Christ's finished work on the cross being the substitute punishment for your sins, you are just confused in the way you're explaining the gospel.
I'd say that many of them were "never known" by Jesus in the first place, like it says in the end of Matthew 7. He said that many of them would even prophecy in His name and still be cast into eternal fire because He never knew them - not because He knew them once and ceased to know them upon their mortal sin, etc...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 4, 2007 17:30:59 GMT -5
I'll just stand back and " would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly. " I can't believe anything different than Jesus saves from sin because that is why "they shall call his name Jesus." I didn't save myself from sin any more than a cripple could save himself out of a burning building.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 4, 2007 18:26:05 GMT -5
No one can pardon sin but Jesus. All sin will need to be pardoned. Jesus doesn't have to pardon any sin, unless He wants to. Once we are born again and have the Holy Spirit, to him who has more, more is expected.
Tyler:
The definitions in the Strong's are from 1890, and have been used and readily accepted in the Church. I don't know many who have issue with Strong's Dictionary. The Key Word also has a lexicon section, with many other thoughts on words like #266 and #264. These seem to have more bias and prejudice, so I always seek the definitions first. That is what I did for these words.
Josh:
I am not saying we save we ourselves, or can wash away our own sin, only that we are to keep our robes whites once saved. We have His power available to us and therefore any sin is always our fault, not God's for making us this way.
But to say it is God's job to keep us clean, is not in the scripture. We are keep from sinning, at all costs. Jesus even said said if plucking out an eye or cutting off our hands could keep us from sinning, we would better off mamed. Was Jesus just kidding around about sin? No!
None of us should ever defend sin, or minimize its potential to bring even a once saved person back to Satan and death, since scripture describes it happening.
If I err, it will be on the side of caution.
Did anyone hear Alister Begg a few weeks ago on Hebrews and this topic? Even he seems to now think a person can fall away, and only those that in fact endure until the end shall be saved.
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Post by tbxi on Apr 4, 2007 20:15:00 GMT -5
Jack, concerning the commentary on the greek that I posted, can you actually bring an argument against it? You have often emphasized present participles in the past, but the verb tenses expounded upon therein are much more detailed, and they support the calvinist position. Actually it is God who says that He is the one doing this. I am not demanding anything of God. I am simply repeating what He has said when I say that God is the one who keeps Christians justified and gradually sanctifies them until they are ultimately glorified. All Christians are being gradually sanctified by Him and disciplined if/when they fall into sin. 1 Peter 1:3-5: 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Romans 8:28-30:
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. This sounds like a good and pious thing to do, but really it is not a good thing. To err in this field on the "side of caution" is, again, to put those Christians who have realized or are realizing the biblical truth of their depravity into a constant and daily state of fear that they will commit a sin and then die suddenly, plummeting into hell. This is eternal insecurity and it is the only valid conclusion that can be drawn from your position, even if you do not feel that way yourself.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 4, 2007 21:03:06 GMT -5
There is no reason to interpret sin in that verse as anything other than what John himself tells us what sin is. 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. I can't tell this discussion really revolves around what the Greek says, but how you interpret it whether you are reading it in Greek or English. The above verse uses "sin" in the same case and everything as is it used in 1:8 You can click here to see the two verses lined up together in Greek. Is it a great site! EDIT: On that site, move your mouse over the word to see what it means.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 4, 2007 21:12:43 GMT -5
Also, if the proper interpretation of that verse is that it is speaking of "original sin" or a inward sin principle, you have to be able to reconcile it with this verse.
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
How can we be set free from the law of sin and still be held captive to it?
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Post by tbxi on Apr 4, 2007 21:49:00 GMT -5
Right off the bat I could say that we are set free from it in the sense that we are not bound to do nothing but evil anymore.
However, you are asking more questions than I can answer in the time given. It will take time for me to do all of these questions justice.
I am not sure what your objection here is. Maybe you could make it more clear. What is the problem?
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 4, 2007 22:01:24 GMT -5
False! Tbxi
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Christians have to make a willful decision not to follow Christ, which is every Day.
Why do some people fail in their Christian walk?
Isaiah 53:6 we have turned every one to his own way;
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
We often fail in Christian living because they accept Jesus as Saviour but not as Lord, or "ruler" of their lives. We want our own way and run our own lives, and find a Church to support our thinking of Scripture.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you:[why would we Fear Tbxi] not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Christianity is so much more than one Single Decision. If we have only made one Decision for Christ, their is a relationship problem.
1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. Paul chose on a daily basis to deny himself and follow Jesus.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
The Bible does not teach that we can turn our backs on truth and still be saved. Why would this put fear into any God Fearing [Respect of God] I am thankful God does tell us - Amen
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
We have a choice to Obey, and Grow in the Knowledge of our Lord And Saviour - Means Obey what truth you have, and when God gives you more - Obey immediately - Amen
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (Lawlessness)
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth
The Bible clearly states that the wicked will be cast into the fire in the day of judgment at the end of this world -- Not when they die.
Hell is not Burning Now! Scripture is very Clear
TrustandObey
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Post by bullhornbob on Apr 4, 2007 23:17:21 GMT -5
T,
OK, I took the bait.
I now see the real meaning behind your initial post.
So, with that said, how do you deal with these verses?
Deut 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Josh 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Prov 1:29 - For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Isa 7:15 - Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
2Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Your Calvinist view is skewed in that it gives man no option to choose. God is not justified in sending the sinner to hell if he has no choice in the matter. Where is the love in that?
Also, I kind of chuckle at your using a commentary by Bur d i c k, nonetheless. Ever think of actually reading a commentary by anyone else besides a Calvinist?
How can you have a love relationship with someone who gives you no choice in the matter?
God created you to sin?
Hell was created for the devil and his angels, but men go there as well? And for something they have no will to turn from?
What about the millions of Jews that were brought out of captivity in Egypt? Did they not choose to grumble, and to believe the 10 with the fearful report?
Or even Abram? Did he not choose to believe God when He spoke to him of his descendants?
It is hilarious that you actually believe you are God's robot, and have no say-so in the matter.
How do you feel about Fred Phelps? Is he saved? Do you condone his actions?
Are you a hyper-Calvinist also?
You are afraid of one word, and one word only:
WORKS!
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Post by tbxi on Apr 4, 2007 23:33:32 GMT -5
T, Ok, I took the bait. I see now the real meaning behind your initial post. So, with that said, how do you deal with these verses? Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Hello bob, what do you mean, you took the bait? I was not trying to trap anybody here. What is the "real meaning" behind my initial post? It was intended to mean exactly what it said. Are you saying that Deut. 30:19 means we have some kind of free will to choose the right or wrong thing to do? If so, that verse doesn't say it. Just because the people are told to make a choice doesn't mean that choice is a libertarian free will choice.
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Post by tbxi on Apr 5, 2007 0:07:12 GMT -5
Bob, considering that you complimented me for my debate etiquette earlier, I do not understand why you are now writing out this disingenuous post full of naive notions that I don't hold to and that I have refuted before, and then accusing me of being a hyper-calvinist like Fred Phelps. T, OK, I took the bait. I now see the real meaning behind your initial post. So, with that said, how do you deal with these verses? Deut 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Josh 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.Prov 1:29 - For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: Isa 7:15 - Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 2Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.None of these verses show that there is libertarian free will. I have covered all of these arguments before in the threads with Jesse concerning free will and open theism, including 2 Peter 3:9, which is directed to the elect and not every person who ever lived. Your entire argument here consists of merely assuming that my position is wrong in order to conclude that it is wrong. It is circular reasoning. Man indeed chooses, but his choices are not of a libertarian free nature. God is indeed justified in sending a sinner to hell because God is God and God is just by definition whatever He does. You ask where is the love in that? Well I am sure you would affirm that God hates all workers of iniquity, right? So you affirm that God doesn't love everyone, at least in the same sense, right? It is just one of those which I was given by one of my pastors. You are complaining about my "bias" here ( everyone has a bias) instead of actually tackling the arguments by maybe posting a commentary that you would agree with. This is not sound argumentation. None of these are actually arguments. They are just attacks on my theology that I have covered before. They are all based on what you personally intuit to be right, or what seems right to you, but I can just as easily say that it seems that I am right and you are wrong if that's all you're going to say. These arguments cannot be backed up with Scripture - for example, the idea that love must be of a libertarian free will nature to really be love. First of all, cite chapter and verse please. Second, in that case, I'd ask you - is there love within the Trinity? If so, according to what you believe love is, would the Son have the choice to hate the Father? After all, His love wouldn't be genuine if He couldn't hate instead, right? What about them? What about them? What does this have to do with the subject at hand? So much for respectful debate tactics. No, I do not believe I am "God's robot". I have not used this terminology. In fact, I am far more intricate than a robot could ever be, and all you are doing with this nonsense is trying to caricature my position in order to make people think it's wrong - the problem is that it's just an ad hominem attack and not a sound argument. Edit: Why do you think this is funny anyway? Do you think it is funny that I believe God is sovereign? That God is not pacing up and down the halls of heaven, frustrated by the "free will" decisions of His creatures who just happened to surprise Him and get out of line? If you think I am so wrong, why are you laughing about it? That is a shameful thing. Fred Phelps is a hyper-calvinist and a heretic. I am about 100% sure he is not saved. I do not condone his actions. I do not see why you would be drawing a comparison from me to him, though, unless you were just trying to make me look bad with this inflammatory rhetoric. No. I am not a hyper-calvinist. Fred Phelps considers "the gospel" to be things like "God hates America" and he quotes OT authors out of context in order to try to convince people we shouldn't pray for America. He is a heretic. Actually I am not afraid of works. However, I can agree with Paul when he says that nobody will be justified by the works of the law, and when he says in Romans 4 that justification is by faith alone - as Abraham was justified before he was circumcised in the first place. Good works will naturally flow from a person who is saved, as Eph. 2:8-10 says (notice the part about how those good works are predestined!).
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Apr 5, 2007 0:34:35 GMT -5
I love what Whitfield said, he said, the only free will you have is that of doing evil. The only fitness you have is that, ready for eternal damnation.
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