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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 23, 2007 10:39:11 GMT -5
Cast your vote and explain if you like...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 23, 2007 11:54:31 GMT -5
I think you forgot a fairly popular view that says Christians go to heaven and sinners go to hell. Hell being Hades which will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 23, 2007 14:22:58 GMT -5
I think you forgot a fairly popular view that says Christians go to heaven and sinners go to hell. Hell being Hades which will eventually be cast into the lake of fire. That's what I meant by the first option... Here are some verses that would be good to dwell on considering this question: • Luke 16:19-31 says, 19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” • Acts 2:25-31 says, 25 For David says concerning Him: ‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. (quote of Psalm 16:8-11) • Revelation 20:12-14 says, 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. • Matthew 12:39-40 says, 39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. • Matthew 16:4 says, 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed. • Luke 23:38-43 says, 38 And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” It seems pretty obvious to me that Hades was a temporary or intermediate place of the dead that was divided into two separate places: 1) Lower Hades- where the wicked abide and wait for the ressurrection and judgement. It is the place that the rich man was in, in the story of the rich man and lazarus. 2)Abraham's Bosom or Paradise- "Upper Hades" where the righteous abide and wait for the resurrection to receive their rewards and go to Heaven. How can these verses fit into any other system? By the way, this is also what the early Christians believed ;D
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 23, 2007 15:49:12 GMT -5
You say that all of those verses with the exception of the one from Revelation was pre-resurection. I've always believed that Jesus went to Abraham's bosom after he died.
Speaking of Revelation, what do you do with all the saints mentioned in Heaven? It's post-"catching away"?
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
This verse is before all those in death and hell are at the judgment.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jun 23, 2007 15:54:16 GMT -5
That is what I was saying. He was there for three days...rose from the grave and then ascended to Heaven after a short period of time on Earth (I think 40 days).
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 15:55:34 GMT -5
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Believing the Dead are not Dead, is spiritualism which is taught by sincere Christians, that carry the lies of the Roman Catholic church during the middle ages - when the Bible was not available as today.
No point of the first resurrection for the Dead if we are in Heaven with our New Bodies. Do we give up the New to go back into the Old.
No. The Dead are Dead waiting for the first or second resurrection. Amen
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 16:09:01 GMT -5
I too am learning fellows. What about these verses?
Matthew 27:51-53, "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jun 23, 2007 16:18:55 GMT -5
Since it says they came out after his(Jesus') resurrection, I've pondered that after Jesus' resurrection when a Christian dies the go to heaven and that now Abraham's bosom is empty.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
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Post by blynn on Jun 23, 2007 16:19:00 GMT -5
I believe we go to a place called paradise where there is a tree of life:
Luke 23:40-43 (King James Version)
40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:3-5 (King James Version)
3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
Revelation 2:6-8 (King James Version)
6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 16:19:28 GMT -5
This was a special resurrection, the First Fruits to God of the coming future resurrection. These would be the 24 elders in Heaven, seen by John in revelation.
This is where the Study of the Sanctuary in the Old testament comes into play. The Lord is fulfilling the Sanctuary service, the wave offering.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming
The Bible does say
Psalm 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
This verse you used, is very important because they did not come out of Abrahams bosom, but the grave, which they slepted. there were not talking in hades in the bosom. very important point.
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 16:24:29 GMT -5
I am kinda leaning towards the 2 places in Hades. Until judgment day.
Revelation 20:11-15, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
But to be honest, at this point I could be swayed at this one.
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 16:27:24 GMT -5
Psalm 115:17
THE DEAD PRAISE NOT THE LORD
which clearly means, in the grave we are dead, if we are in heaven upon death we would be praising Him.
The Bible says:
If a man die, shall be live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, til my change come.
What Change? the bible says our only change comes at the first ressurection only at the Second coming.
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 16:30:00 GMT -5
Psalm 115:17 THE DEAD PRAISE NOT THE LORD which clearly means, in the grave we are dead, if we are in heaven upon death we would be praising Him. The Bible says: If a man die, shall be live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, til my change come. What Change? the bible says our only change comes at the first ressurection only at the Second coming. TrustandObey The way I take this friend is that those who have not the Spirit of Life in them cannot praise God. These who are dead in sins
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 16:33:04 GMT -5
The King James Translators, used Hell for Hades or Sheol which is the grave. why? hard to say except the time the Bible was translated, that this doctrine was so driven in to there minds.
Job says:
If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in darkness.
Questions about hell? consider this... The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. In the Old Testament: 31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means “the grave”
In the New Testament: 10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means “the grave” 12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means “a place of burning” 1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means “a place of darkness”
TrustandObey
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 16:39:24 GMT -5
I can respect this, because dead people to God praise themselves and love their sin.
But the Doctrine of death the psalmist is explaining the grave [death as physical], is very clear in the Bible. Dead means Dead. The Devil said, ye shall not surely Die. And the same lie is being preached today,
His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21
upon death, we are not in heaven or Hell, but waiting in the grave for the first or second resurrection.
TrustandObey
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 16:48:37 GMT -5
Upon the death of the wicked, they do NOT go to a burning Hell. It is not scriptual.
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished. 2 Peter 2:9
Reserve means reserved in the grave until the second ressurection to stand trial for their crimes against God.
John 12:48 that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
the last day the wicked are judged, not upon death!
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Buring does not start until the end! Not Now! or upon death
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 17:02:30 GMT -5
I can respect this, because dead people to God praise themselves and love their sin. But the Doctrine of death the psalmist is explaining the grave [death as physical], is very clear in the Bible. Dead means Dead. The Devil said, ye shall not surely Die. And the same lie is being preached today, His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21 upon death, we are not in heaven or Hell, but waiting in the grave for the first or second resurrection. TrustandObey Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." I believe here God was speaking of a spiratual death not a physical. God is LIFE HIMSELF. To be in the presence of God means to be in the presence of LIFE. When man sinned against God, man was cast forth out of God's (LIFE's) presence. To be absent from God means to be dead in sin. This is where I get my understanding of this.
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 17:11:05 GMT -5
because of Sin, we are spiritualy dead "yes". When we Die physically, the Bible does not say we go to Heaven or Hell. The Bible does say we are in the Grave until the First or Second resurrection.
The Dead in the Grave do not praise the Lord. The Dead do not know anything.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 17:26:40 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 5:4-11, "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."
Wouldn't it be fare to say, according to these verses; that once we (Who are Born Again ) die in this age, would be in the presence of the Lord.
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 17:36:09 GMT -5
lets look at this verse a word at a time, a quick read tell us, as soon as we die we are with the Lord, Paul is not saying this at all.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing "rather"[means the opposite to his statement] to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Paul was expressing he would rather be with the Lord upon Death.
When did Paul to expect His reward, or crown - upon death or the second coming
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day[day meaning future]: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul is in the Grave [dead -sleep in Christ] waiting for the second coming of the Lord.
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 17:45:19 GMT -5
James 1:18, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." Romans 8:14-17, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Hebrews 2:10, "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." Once we surrender to the Lordship of Christ, and we recieve the Holy Spirit within; why would we have to wait once we put off this tabernacle. Jesus has come into the presence of the Father. He has paid the price for our sins. Does not that give us the right to also come into the presence of God when we leave this tabernacle? Again, I am just trying to learn.
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 18:04:33 GMT -5
Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
The spirit we have from God; is the breath of life [only]; not a spirit with thought [knowledge]: So the spirit that many claim is in heaven is only the breath of life, which goes back to God at death; which holds our life experience written in the books of remembrance.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
What spirit - the breath of life. This verse does not say only the righteous, according to this verse, both saved and lost go to heaven upon death. No. All are works are sealed into the books in heaven.
The Bible states that books are written on every though deed, whether good or evil will be judged.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
The Lord must review all cases before He comes the second time, by their works performed by His Grace and Power, to see if their profession equaled their works to see if they are worthy to come into His Kingdom.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
That is why the Bible states when Jesus comes, He gives the rewards.
The Bible is very clear , if we die, will be in the grave, until the judgment [our books] are reviewed by the Heavenly Judge Jesus Christ. The living when Christ comes, their test is the mark of the beast. We must overcome sin to be ready by the Lords grace to do so.
The soul and body are one, the breath is the only thing that seperates at death [which is the breath of life].
TrustandOBey
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 18:07:34 GMT -5
An this judgment happens in Daniel 7:10
Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 18:08:44 GMT -5
Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
I do not have to wait for the Judgment day to come. For through faith in what Christ has done for me by His Grace I know I am saved from the wrath to come.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 18:10:48 GMT -5
All my sins (that have been repented) sins have been washed away from the Father as far as the east is from the west.
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 18:13:50 GMT -5
If I had to wait for the judgment day to come, would not make my faith all in vain. And not also the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross?
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 18:16:29 GMT -5
The Bible says differently, Mans wrath and God's wrath are to different subjects in the Bible. The Lord will protect His saints through the Judgment [plagues] of the Lamb. The rapture is a fraud - doctrine of the Devil
Noah was protected through the Flood, Israel was protected through the last 7 plagues to deliver them from Pharaoh. This is the type of the last days the three Hebrews where protected through the flames of the furnace.
Plus we are taking about what happens at death. The Bible is very clear on the subject, the truth is not taught in the mainline churches today, by intention to deceive.
TrustandOBey
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 18:19:12 GMT -5
The investative Judgment, the Court system in Heaven has already begun. only the dead in Christ are coming across the Lords review.
The Bible states, according to Daniel 8:14 - which started in 1844
TrustandObey
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Post by Rhema Seeker (Guy) on Jun 23, 2007 18:23:43 GMT -5
I too am speaking after death. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, He defieted death and the grave. He is now in the presence of the Father. We, through faith, by the gift of Grace, now have the same victory. So we too should have access to the Father once we put this tabernacle aside.
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Post by trustandobey on Jun 23, 2007 18:25:38 GMT -5
what tabernacle aside?
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