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Post by John McGlone on Jul 18, 2007 3:34:22 GMT -5
Could I get your biblical views on drinking alcohal / drunkeness and how to deal with Christian excuses for drinking including elders and pastors? Thank you.
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Post by debonnaire on Jul 18, 2007 5:42:01 GMT -5
One day when arriving in the church where I used to go sometimes before, the Lord showed in my heart something and led to me to read a part of Isaiah 5 to the congregation. I asked the pastor if I could. After a few seconds without answering , he agreed. So I read isaiah 5 , it was a short message of correction. However there was NO problem of drunkenness in the little congregation , but it seemed that some kind of habit [of drinking perhaps only one glass or two each evening] had taken place for some members , including the young pastor himself. [in his sermon he preached to the group afterwards, he said he had also received conviction of sin by the Holy spirit the day before] I did not know what was going on in this little group before coming, it is the Holy spirit who knew. It was good that the revelation/rebuke came from two different sources.
So drinking is allowed , but when it becomes an habit (even when not abusing) it is WRONG. As the apostle Paul'd say : everything is allowed , but I won't place myself under a foreign yoke.
I don’t say this because I was an alcoholic before my repentance/conversion, but because 1/ Drinking without getting drunk can become an idol when it becomes an habit (even if it is only one glass a day) 2/ Getting drunk separates the believer from the communion with the Holy Ghost. [Ephesians 5:18]
No idolator, no debauched people will enter the kingdom of God
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jul 18, 2007 23:16:16 GMT -5
I have a whole thread somewhere that I started under the docrine forum that goes into great detail. In short drinking is not sin, getting drunk is. If anyone says that the wine Jesus drank or the wine back then could not get a person drunk then how do you explain the verse that says, "be not drunk with wine...". Also, Jesus was accused of being a "wine bibber". Some accusation that would be if the wine was really grape juice. In Greek, in Hebrew, in whatever language and whatever culture, they understood the differenve between wine and grape juice. There is good high quality wine today just like there was back them. The world hasn't changed that much. The truth is Jesus drank wine and wine is not forbidden. There will be wine in heaven. That being said, if drinkning even a little causes another brother to stumble it is much better to not drink at all. I think however that damage has been done by throwing the baby out with bathwater by saying because drunkenness is wrong therefore any amount of drinking is wrong. Look at even the early church fathers' writings on the subject. There is more than one quote that basically says that if anyone forbids the drinkning of wine and deems it sin, THAT person should be excommunicated. There are equally many quotes that say that to refrain from drinkning any alcohol for discipline sake is admirable.
Blessings,
Miles
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 19, 2007 18:14:19 GMT -5
professing Christians love their Alcohol, and say Jesus made me do it. He said it is OK.
My Christian Friends.
Alcohol is a poison, who are we to determine what is drunk in God's eyes.
Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster[grapes], and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Deuteronomy 32:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
This is not alcohol, put grape juice.
Prov 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [This is fermentation]
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
The Lord says do not even look upon it.! Because of lust:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Just a small amount of alcohol groups the blood cells together and traps oxygen, where it can not be released in the body, especially the brain. It immediately kills brain cells. [murdering the body] fermented wine or any alcohol beverage.
Drunk, in God's eye's, is as soon as someone drinks fermented wine.
Drinking alcohol is Sin! fermented wine or strong drink, without exception!
Question usually used to justify Alcoholic wine is 1 Tim 5:23
Did Paul recommend the use of wine under certain conditions?
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Only two types of wine in the Bible, to answer this question:
Gen 40:11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand. [pure grape juice][freshly squeezed] no germination noted!
Does grape juice cheer man?
Judges 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man
What does God say, when the vine of the grape is dried up
Joel 1:10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.
No pure grape juice, joy has withered away, Fermented wine God says
Prov 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Christians are Kings and priest:
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Leviticus 10: 8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Christians that drink or condone alcohol is OK, cannot discern Holy things with the common things, for they are under the influence of Demons.
What did Daniel do:
8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
What was the wine of Babylon. Alcoholic wine!
1 cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
We do not have the right to defile our Bodies, with unclean things.
TrustandObey
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jul 19, 2007 19:22:34 GMT -5
So how do you get that there are two kinds of wine; one being alcholic and one that is not, from scripture?
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 19, 2007 19:44:18 GMT -5
My Christian Friends
Only two types of wine, One pure [blessed], one fermented [cursed].
Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster [grapes], and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Deuteronomy 32:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
Gen 40:11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand. [pure grape juice][freshly squeezed] Used immediately
blessed wine - pure grape juice
Prov 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [This is fermentation]
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Aright used here means “upright”. When it moves upright; as in the process of fermentation, during the process, fermentation starts from the bottom upward.
Prov 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
This verse does not say until you get drunk.
Habakkuk 2:15
To those who preach alcohol is ok, Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink[Just giving it to them is SIN], that puttest thy bottle [Hebrew word, poison] to him, and makest him drunken also.
cursed grape juice
1 out of 7 that take their first drink of alcohol become drunks,
Alcohol is a serious crime against God.
TrustandOBey
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Post by alan4jc on Jul 19, 2007 19:45:47 GMT -5
I agree with Miles ;D
Also have you ever considered that scripture in James about lust becoming sin. Could it refer to your lust of the law and the gratification you seem to get from comparing yourself to it?
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 19, 2007 19:52:25 GMT -5
My Christian Friends,
Those who tell people it is ok to drink alcohol, does not love His Neigbour, and there fore breaking the 10 commandments. The Law of Love. And are in Sin, for Sin is the transgression of the Law. The soul that sinneth it shall die.
Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink[Just giving it to them is SIN], that puttest thy bottle [Hebrew word, poison] to him, and makest him drunken also.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
If you love your fellow man, you will warn them of any type of alcohol. For it only brings woe.
TrustandObey
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 19, 2007 20:12:15 GMT -5
In this year, 30 Billion dollar in sales of Alcohol, cost taxpayers 136 billion of the effects of the poisoning.
In this Year [Alcohol] caused 65,000 lives lost, 22,000 just by the Hwy.
Alcohol caused 20% by freezing, 25% by choking, 80% of falls, 52% of fires, 60% rapes, 80% criminal courts cases. "WoW" If the preachers of the Land started preaching the truth of alcohol, the Courts would be almost empty! WHERE ARE THE STREET PREACHERS , PREACHING GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
For every $1 dollar spent on alcohol it cost taxpayers approx $4.41 to clean up the mess.
This does not even include personal cost, broken families [marriages]
Alcohol is wicked. it is a destroyer!
Those who love their neighbor will warn all to stop drinking.
The Year 1975 - do we think it has gotten any better today?
TrustandObey
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 19, 2007 20:40:47 GMT -5
How does everyone deal with the below scripture? I'm asking both sides.
Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Pro 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
I've heard it interpreted that "him that is ready to perish" is someone who is about to be executed. We do see that this was a practice that some did when executing someone. Just like they tried to do with Jesus before he died to ease his pain.
Mat 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
Do you guys agree with that interpretation?
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jul 20, 2007 22:48:06 GMT -5
Habakkuk 2:14 How convenient that you did not finish the verse. It says woe to those who give their neighbor strong drink to make them drunk THAT THOU MAYEST LOOK ON THEIR NAKEDNESS
How does that answer the question about there being two kinds of wine, one alcoholic and one not, in scripture? The bible talks about grape juice and the bible talks about wine.
Josh, Not too sure about the execution thing. I would have to think more on that one.
Seriously though, if anyone can find that thread I started a long time ago about drinking that would be great. I think almost every objection was answered.
Blessings,
Miles
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Post by Kerrigan on Jul 21, 2007 8:27:11 GMT -5
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 21, 2007 11:11:30 GMT -5
If it's not talking about that, then is it saying it is ok to drink to the point you "forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If I'm poor can I drink to forget about it? I would feel very uncomfortable about saying that. I've not heard much on that passage. I've been questioned about it on the street a few times.
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 21, 2007 18:19:18 GMT -5
My Christian Friends.
Wine in the Bible is a generic word, only by the content can tell whether it is alcohol [ferminted] or grape juice and both are called wine.
Noah
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine,[3196] and was drunken; and he was uncovered [naked] within his tent.
H3196 ééï yayin yah'-yin From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine [8492] is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it:
H8492 úÌéøùÑ úÌéøåùÑ tîyrôsh tîyrôsh tee-roshe', tee-roshe' From H3423 in the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape juice (as just squeezed out); by implication (rarely) fermented wine: - (new, sweet) wine.
Romans 14: 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
We are to drink the unferminted grape juice [new wine] not ferminted [alcohol] wine.
Prov 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [This is fermentation]
We are not to look upon it, for it is a destroyer!
Prov 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways [he desides was is right and wrong] lives according to his will
TrustandObey
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 21, 2007 18:28:05 GMT -5
My Christian Friends,
The verse quoted does answer itself.
Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Alcohol will numb [to forget] their pain & misery before death, that are appointed to destruction. [They are not going to heaven] but are lost!
Open their mouth for the dumb [they have rejected truth] heavy hearts, they are ready to perish, [lost for eternity]
The Lord says give them what they want!
TrustandObey
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jul 22, 2007 13:53:50 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that we should buy sinners beer?
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 22, 2007 14:14:57 GMT -5
My Christian Friends:
The verse is not hard to understand!
I simply stated the verse answers itself.
Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead:
Also the verse startes with: Let Him, which can mean let him do it! 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
Christians are not to look upon Alcohol, Drink it, or recomend it, if we love our neigbour!
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof
TrustandObey
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Jul 22, 2007 21:43:05 GMT -5
Well we know that Jesus didn't drink alcoholic wine because He is the King of Kings.
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Post by trustandobey on Jul 23, 2007 7:57:30 GMT -5
Well Said!
If the Lord said, earth kings shall drink no (ferminted wine) How much more shall the King of Kings not drink (alcohol wine). Amen
TrustandObey
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