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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 5, 2007 8:01:40 GMT -5
I found this on Ergun Caner's blog:
Just some food for thought, from the 1859 sermon by Charles Spurgeon entitled JACOB AND ESAU. “Why does God hate any man? I defy anyone to give any answer but this, because that man deserves it; no reply but that can ever be true. There are some who answer, divine sovereignty; but I challenge them to look that doctrine in the face. Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, sovereignly — it is the same thing — created that man, with no other intention, than that of damning him? Made him, and yet, for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you, that is all I can say: you deserve pity, that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever.”
CITATION: Charles Spurgeon, Sermon: JACOB AND ESAU (January 16, 1859)
I read recently that I “turned Romans 9 upside down.” Well, then I stand in good company … with Spurgeon … against those who embrace reprobation.
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Post by ebrayley on Oct 5, 2007 12:04:42 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 5, 2007 12:28:08 GMT -5
Kerrigan,
Knowing that Spurgeon was a 5-point Calvinist I'm thinking he's refuting the Hyper-Calvinist with this statement. If I'm not mistaken I think most of the Calvinists here would agree with this. I believe what most Calvinist call Hyper-Calvinism is the Supra-lapsarian position.
Steve
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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 5, 2007 13:00:56 GMT -5
Kerrigan, Knowing that Spurgeon was a 5-point Calvinist I'm thinking he's refuting the Hyper-Calvinist with this statement. If I'm not mistaken I think most of the Calvinists here would agree with this. I believe what most Calvinist call Hyper-Calvinism is the Supra-lapsarian position. Steve That's possible Steve...but IF that is true, then there are MANY people who call themselves just regular Calvinists who Spurgeon would classify as a Hyper-Calvinist. Either way, MOST Calvinists I know would agree with James White on this issue and therefore disagree with Spurgeon here...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2007 16:27:00 GMT -5
Almost all the Calvinists I know have presented God as just an arbitrary ruler. I'm glad to hear the Spurgeon believed God was guided by His Divine Intelligence, and that God always has a good reason for what He does. I didn't know that the view of God acting arbitrary was considered "hyper-calvinism".
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 5, 2007 20:02:10 GMT -5
I don't know for certain but I think what is usually called Hyper-Calvinism has to do with the logical order of God's eternal decrees. In infra-lapsarian Calvinism God decrees to permit the fall before the decree to elect. Thus God elects some sinners and lets others perish. In supra-lapsarian Calvinism God's decree to elect precedes His decree to permit the fall. Therefore, God is not electing some sinners out of the rest, but has chosen some humans (not viewed as fallen) for eternal bliss and has decreed that others will be created for eternal damnation. It is this which I think Spurgeon is probably speaking out against here. This might not be the best description, but I think it's basically accurate.
Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2007 22:42:26 GMT -5
Are there any passages that they use to prove that these "decrees" even exist? Or is it just a philosophical necessity given their definition of Sovereignty?
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Post by Steve Noel on Oct 6, 2007 14:05:18 GMT -5
Are there any passages that they use to prove that these "decrees" even exist? Or is it just a philosophical necessity given their definition of Sovereignty? That's a legitimate question and I tend to view the whole discussion on the eternal decrees as rather speculative at best. Steve
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Post by abraham on Oct 7, 2007 17:49:40 GMT -5
Hey Jesse, Charles Hodge (who held to a similar stance as that of Spurgeon) has a section on the decrees of God in His systematic theology. www.ccel.org/ccel/hodge/theology1.iv.ix.i.htmlYou can also study briefly the difference between infra and supra. It must also be noted that not all supras are hyper calvinist. However, all hyper calvinist are supra and many times supra can lead to hyper calvinism. Hodge was infra and it apears spurgeon was also infra. www.ccel.org/ccel/hodge/theology2.iv.i.i.htmlGod bless you Jesse! -Abraham
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