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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 27, 2007 13:31:32 GMT -5
Here is a quote from this article. I found it on this blog. I want to tell my gay friends that the Reformed faith has answers for them. Most evangelical Christians can only offer them the Pelagian answer that all sin is a choice, and since homosexuality is a sin, it too must be a choice, and unless they can choose it away they will perish. I want to tell my gay friends that even if they didn’t choose their homosexuality it is still a sin, and they will still be judged by God because their plight is the plight of all mankind. We are all doomed to perish not because of our sinful choices but because of the imputation of Adam’s sin to our account and the inherited corruption of our nature. The doctrine of original sin is extraordinarily difficult for most people to swallow because it says that we had no choice in the matter of our eternal fate. It speaks of our utterly helpless and hopeless condition before a holy God, and people don’t want that. Instead they want to fool themselves into believing that they can still choose to be moral. But the homosexual is not fooled. He knows differently. He experiences every day what it means to be truly powerless to morally redeem himself, and every day he must live in the misery of that condition. I want to tell gays and lesbians about the good news of justification through the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to their account, exhort them to take hold of Christ by faith, and like Abraham who contemplated his own body to be as good as dead, to look away from themselves and ahead to the promise of the resurrection of the body (Romans 4:19-25).
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Post by tbxi on Nov 27, 2007 14:18:14 GMT -5
I read the article. I enjoyed it. I can relate to the author's thoughts about whether or not homosexuality is a choice, i.e. if people are just "born that way", and I come to the same conclusion. I know what aspects of it you are going to disagree with, but I am curious - what do you think was positive about the article, Kerrigan?
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 27, 2007 14:40:01 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole article and have no intention to. I only referenced it so people could see it in its entirety. I only read the blog post about the article...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2007 15:15:53 GMT -5
So homosexuals don't deserve hell for choosing to be homosexuals, they deserve hell because Adam has made them homosexuals.
People don't deserve hell for their own personal choices, but everyone deserves hell for Adam's choice.
But, homosexuals and the rest of the world can be saved, if Jesus died for them. Just as Adams sin was transfered to them, then Christ's righteousness will be transfered to them.
But it is not their choice to repent or their choice to believe. It is not their choice to be saved. It is entirely God's choice. He will save them if he wants to, or let them die in Adam's sin if he wants to.
Again I say, this is ridiculous.
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Post by martinluther on Nov 27, 2007 15:22:07 GMT -5
Well, I believe in original sin--but it's unbiblical to say people won't go to hell for their own sins, as that quote says, but only for Adam's. Scripture repeatedly teaches that people go to hell for their own sins (1 Cor. 6:10 and Rev. 21:8, for example).
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Post by tbxi on Nov 27, 2007 15:23:49 GMT -5
Well, I believe in original sin--but it's unbiblical to say people won't go to hell for their own sins, as that quote says, but only for Adam's. Scripture repeatedly teaches that people go to hell for their own sins (1 Cor. 6:10 and Rev. 21:8, for example). I would say it is not solely one or the other, but both. I think we agree. People go to hell not just because they are condemned in the first Adam (the federal headship bit again - in Adam, all sinned) but also for their own sins.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 27, 2007 15:39:06 GMT -5
In relation to this, I would recommend reading my "Commentaries on Romans 5 and 1Cor 15" and also reading "Necessary Conditions of Moral Accountability".
The bible teaches:
- Children do not inherit the guilt or sin of the parent: Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezekiel 18:2-4, Ezekiel 18:19-20
- Sinners are separated from God for their own sin: Romans 7:9, Colossians 2:13, Isaiah 59:2
- Responsibility is limited to ability: Deut 6:5, Deut 10:12, Deut 30:6, Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27
- Accountability is limited to knowledge: Matthew 11:21-22, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 23:34, John 9:41, John 15:22, Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13, James 4:17, John 19:11, Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47, James 3:1, Matt 10:15, Matt 11:24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12, Luke 10:14, Heb 10:26, 2Peter 2:21
- Sinners choose to follow Adams example: Romans 5:12, Romans 5:19
- Bad leading, influence, or example can cause others to choose to sin: 1 Kings 14:16; 15:26, 30, 34; 16:13, 26; 21:22; 22:52; 2 Kings 3:3; 10:29, 31; 13:2; 14:24; 15:9, 18, 24, 28; 21:11, 16; 23:15, Nehemiah 13:26, Jeremiah 32:35, Isaiah 3:12, Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2, 1 Corinthians 8:9, Heb 4:11
- Sinners are accountable for their own sin alone: Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezekiel 18:2-4, Ezekiel 18:19-20, Matthew 16:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Revelation 22:12.
This is sound doctrine.
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Post by bondslavenchrist on Dec 1, 2007 15:50:54 GMT -5
As I said before, I agree with Jesus who said that man will be condemned for NOT believing in Jesus Christ.
Who cares what any man says. It is what the Lord Himself says that matters. Man's opinions are only man's opinions.
GOD's opinions are SPIRITUAL LAW that applies to ALL EQUALLY!
Mar 16:16 He who believes [who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] and is baptized will be saved [from the penalty of eternal death]; but he who does not believe [who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] will be condemned.
Joh 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. Joh 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him. Joh 3:18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.] Joh 3:19 The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil. [Isa. 5:20.] Joh 3:20 For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved. Joh 3:21 But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence upon Him].
So according to Jesus, if we TRULY BELIEVE then our WHOLE LIFE will change into one JUST LIKE HIS OWN (though we will not become God) and we will WALK on this earth as HE walked. That is what TRUE BIBLICAL BELIEF MEANS! Anyone who does NOT believe, is condemned!
PERIOD!
So it seems that Jesus thinks we are saved or condemned on the basis of BIBLICAL Belief or unbelief.
I think Jesus is correct!
Everyone else can agree with whomever they want, but since Jesus has NEVER been wrong, I suggest that we ALL should agree with HIM.
a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk
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Post by swordsmith on Dec 1, 2007 16:54:12 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you
I want to tell our homosexual friends that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God. Yet I want them to know that I am sorry that a lot of the church has singled them out as the scum and filth of the earth in comparison to every other type of sinner. I want them to know that in God's eyes, they are no more unrighteous than all other kinds of sinners.
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