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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 26, 2008 9:49:59 GMT -5
This quote is found in Romans 7:17, 20 and the "law of sin which is in my members" is found in verse 23. What do you guys think this is talking about?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 26, 2008 11:08:36 GMT -5
These passages in Romans 7 are part of the reason I haven't rejected the doctrine of original sin. In verse 8 Paul says that "sin" produced coveteousness in him. So this "sin" is prior to his actual sin of coveting. In the verses you listed (17, 20) Paul blames this "sin" for his actions. In verse 14 he says he is enslaved to this "sin". As you've noted he says this "sin" dwells in him. Original sin / Sinful nature might not be the best way to describe what he's talking about here, but it seems evident that there is some kind of predisposition to sin in man. The Arminian Theologian Richard S. Taylor says this about the character of indwelling sin: "Not only does Paul exonerate the law of God but he also exonerates the 'I' - 'it is no longer I that do it' (7:17, also 15-16, 19-20, 22, 25). Biblical theology will not permit us to psychologize this in modern terms and try to explain it as the bondage of the will to an evil habit. We must work from Paul's own psychology, which posits a much deeper problem. He is confronting an inner moral tyranny that is alien to man's true nature. To have blamed the law would have been blaming the God who gave it; so also it would be blaming the Creator to ascribe this inner moral dichotomy to an original defect. There is an I in this passage which disowns what it finds in itself, yet at the same time owns it as inwardly present. It is also clear that volitional acts of wrongdoing are not in view. We a dealing with a subvolitional tendency to fall short of an adopted, reasonable standard." (God, Man, and Salvation, p. 291) He wrote earlier, "The message of Romans 7 is therefore that law does much more than focus and intensify the guilt of actual wrongdoing (vv. 9-11, 13). It also discovers a depravity of nature back of the individual infractions. To become aware of this depravity is essential to man's self-knowledge." (ibid, p. 290) I don't know the best way to explain all this, in fact, I find it quite difficult to wrap my mind around it all, but I think this is pretty close to the truth. Steve
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 26, 2008 11:31:42 GMT -5
Steve, Do you believe that this is removed after regeneration? Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 26, 2008 13:44:19 GMT -5
Josh, No, I do not think that this is removed at regeneration nor, as the Wesleyans teach, at a crisis sanctification. I believe at regeneration it's power is broken and we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. From there we must daily and conciously yield to the Holy Spirit and not to this sinful tendency (or whatever you call it). It seems to me that this is what Paul speaks about in Galatians 5:16-17 "But I say, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please." (NASB) It's also what I believe Paul lays out in Romans 8 when he says, "So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (vv. 12-13 NASB) As best as I can understand at this time it appears to me that after conversion the flesh and Spirit dwell in the believer. The believer must daily yield to one or the other. Steve
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 26, 2008 13:55:44 GMT -5
There are some that teach that this "sin that dwelleth in me" is something like a spiritual entity, a spirit of disobedience. It's a life that thrusts the person towards sin (not takes control of the person). Possibly it's just the result of being born "spiritually dead to God." It would be seen nearly synonymous with "the old man." The old man was crucified (past tense) and this spirit of disobedience was removed. Both are replaced with the "new man" and the Holy Spirit. The flesh is merely your physical body which can influence you towards sin. You must crucify the flesh daily, but the old man was killed on the cross.
Regeneration replaces the old with the new, but you still have a physical flesh to keep subdued.
What do you see the "old man" being?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 26, 2008 13:58:09 GMT -5
I just read over what I wrote... I don't think my explanation of what they believe makes much sense. I'll try to find some quotes that explain what they are saying clearer.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 27, 2008 17:20:12 GMT -5
Regarding Paul's statement, "sin that dwells in me" or "the law of sin that is in my members" there are three interpretations that I know of:
1. The law of habit: this is what a person has become naturally used to choosing
2. the lusts of his flesh: this is physical depravity that strongly influences us
3. original sin: some sin that lodged itself behind the will and forces the will in a certain direction
There may be other perspectives that I am not aware of.
But here are some things I wanted to point out:
1. It doesn't say that Paul inherited it
2. It doesn't say that Paul got it from Adam
3. It doesn't say that all sinners have it
Now, I am not saying that all sinners don't have what Paul is describing, but simply that the text doesn't say what many people seem to "read into the text".
Romans 7 never explicitly says where Paul got it, when Paul got it, or how Paul got it.
To say, "this was original sin that Paul inherited at birth from Adam" seems to be a HUGE LEAP of theological bias.
To assign:
- How Paul got this (through semen or blood)
- From where Paul got this (Adam and Eve)
- When Paul got this (at birth)
Seems to be assuming a theology rather then exegesis.
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