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Post by messengermicah on Jan 26, 2008 16:17:42 GMT -5
In the past I have been apprehensive about speaking out against Calvinism in a general sense because so many godly and honorable men from the past have been Calvinists (such as Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon, the Puritans, etc.). I did not agree with their theology but I respected them as men of God and believed they lived holy lives.
However, now even though I respect these great men I believe this theology is one of the biggest if not the biggest obstacle to the true gospel going forth.
It takes the edge off of the sword of the Spirit. Their message is ineffective. I have found the majority of its adherents are stubborn and dishonest. They fight for sin harder than they fight against sin.
They give lip service to believing Christians cannot live in sin but then object to Christians living free and above sin.
I appreciate Ray Comfort and respect the work he is doing. However there are too many "Comfort Clones" who believe evangelism begins and ends with Ray Comfort. Anyone who does not do it exactly like Ray and Kirk are ignorant and not in "the know".
They give lip service to the need to preach against sin, label sin, confront sin, etc. but DO NOT DO IT!
I am not referring here to Ray Comfort himself but am referring to many of the "Comfort Clones."
This is all well and good if they are just beginning and God bless them for trying to get started and do something.
However, if preaching is done in a vague, ambiguous, bland way where the listeners do not clearly understand. They are careful to isolate the sin from the sinner, something even Ray Comfort and Spurgeon say we are not to do.
It fails to make an impression on the hearer of his true condition and his danger.
They do not understand the mindset of sinners and the negative effect of their message because they never directly confront the critical and necessary issues and expose the true heart of the sinner. They do not understand what the sinner truly believes about himself and God because they do not confront him where he is at in a way that is direct and clear that exposes him.
On a similiar note I firmly believe well known ministries that have been mentioned on here before have a good message for the church but not concerning evangelism or salvation. I regularly supported some of these financially for years when I was a school teacher. I have no regrets of this. I read the books over and over, I bought the tapes, and went to the conferences and enjoyed all of it.
I remember one of the classes I went to during a conference. The teacher from the school was speaking on the office of the evangelist. I had been street preaching for about a year at the time. I asked the teacher in front of the class about the role of street preaching and the evangelist.
One of the comments he made was "You can preach at cars but cars do not get saved!" I agree but I do not think this man knew a thing in the world about open air preaching.
In listening to one of these ministries tapes and reading their books I learned they believed a Christian can live in known sin but just needs to grow. He does not actually believe a Christian can live a victorious life over sin or at least gives that impression when he teaches.
I believe this is the subtle influence of Calvinism on them even though these ministries would not claim to be Calvinists.
Another minister whose book I read years ago and enjoyed it very much works closely with this other minister's school of ministry. I have ran into students who are in campus groups under his ministry.
They gather around in the lawn, sing songs, dance with body piercings (the leaders), painted hair, tight clothes, but never confront sinners and call them to repentance.
They talk much of prayer and I hope they do pray but if they live in sin God will not hear or answer their prayers. They claim they cannot be free from sin or stop sinning.
They do sin because they never speak out or confront the sin all around them. They give lip service and mental acknowledgement to the necessity to do this but never do it.
These ministers have a good message for the church to live sacrificially, radical discipleship, revival and prayer but I do not believe they adequately or properly prepare the church for evangelism.
They do not understand the mindset of the sinner because they do not confront them directly in their sin and call them directly to total repentance.
In order to know the heart of a person they must be confronted directly on their idols. Their false ideas must be exposed.
Being vague or general fails to do this.
I addressed this in a different thread but the thread got off topic because of personal attacks.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 16:32:28 GMT -5
I totally agree with you brother, it is truly a barrier.
In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:10:50 GMT -5
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:12:15 GMT -5
Consider what Spurgeon said about Calvinism...
CHARLES SPURGEON QUOTES ON CALVINISM
It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170).
I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).
... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).
You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130).
When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165).
George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124).
Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298).
We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).
I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.
I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34).
A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).
I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).
CHARLES SPURGEON QUOTES ON LIMITED ATONEMENT
If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)
We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question-Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They say, "No." They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died so that any man may be saved if"-and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say then, we will just go back to the old statement-Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why you... We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermon 181, New Park Street Pulpit, IV, p. 135)
I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of men be added to it. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 70)
A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased -- a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 26, 2008 17:13:42 GMT -5
Dear sir,
Please reread my post above.
I believe the Puritans would be embarrased by these Calvinists today defending sin and opposing preaching against sin and a call for holy lives in the midst of homosexuals, fornicators, perverts, drunkards, gangster rappers, dope heads, etc.
Ridiculous!
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:18:59 GMT -5
Calvinism is not the hindrance....
I sent a letter to a young evangelist encouraging him... I wrote, "Teach the 10 commandments and the Law of God and expound on the exceeding sinfulness of sin in the light of Jesus Christ Crucified. No one can ever truly understand Total Depravity until they have tasted of the horror and vileness of their own sinful flesh. (You'll find that a lukewarm Calvinist will believe in Total Depravity simply because the bible clearly teaches it... But, their love is cold and they love little because they have a shallow understanding of sin and how great God's grace is in light of their sin.) If someone is confused or resisting the doctrine of total depravity. Just read to them Romans 1-3 and pray that God will teach them of the horror of sin and the unprofitableness of natural man."
Don't attack Calvinism my friend when that is not the hindrance.
Many Calvinist in our modern day our lukewarm because Sin is no longer preached against in many churches. You'll find the same root problem in many other camps as well.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 17:23:22 GMT -5
Abraham I agree that those Calvinists who hold to the true doctrine of Calvinism being the "Perseverance of the Saints" in holiness are in fact not hindering the work of Christ. But as Micah had stated in his writing that it is not these Calvinists that are a hinderance but those who hold to cheap Grace.
In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:25:07 GMT -5
Read the Puritans. Listen to men like Paul Washer in our day. They preach on holiness just as the Pentecostals and Weslyans do.
Calvinism is not a hindrance to holiness or the true gospel.
The Puritan Thomas Watson was a Calvinist and he wrote statements like this...
"Sin first enslaves—and then damns!
(Thomas Watson, "The Beatitudes" 1660)
"I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." John 8:34
"You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires!" John 8:44
It is the sad misery of an unregenerate person, that he is in a state of vassalage. He is under the tyranny of sin. "It is the greatest slavery in the world for a man to be a slave to his own passions!"
A wicked man is as much a slave—as he who works in the galley! Look into his heart—and there are legions of lusts ruling him! He must do what sin will have him to do. A slave is at the service of a usurping tyrant. If he bids him dig in the mine, or hew in the quarries, or tug at the oar—he must do it. Thus every wicked man must do what corrupt nature, inspired by the devil, bids him to do. If sin bids him to be drunk, or to be unchaste —he is at the command of sin, as the donkey is at the command of the driver.
Sin first enslaves—and then damns!
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Romans 6:22"
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:29:35 GMT -5
If you are going to be true to your statements, change the title of your thread to... Lukewarm Calvinism is a huge hindrance...
and while your at it, maybe you should read about how the Puritans strongly taught that the Arminian Gospel is a huge hindrance to the true gospel. They were even imprisoned and Martyred for their resistance to this man-centered gospel.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 17:29:38 GMT -5
Actually Paul Washer is one of my favorite Evangelist, but the fact is the cause of this easy Believism comes from the teachings of Calvinism. As I stated above not all Calvinists believe in cheap Grace, but many in this present age hold to a doctrine that fits more under OSAS (heresy) then it does Perseverance of the Saints.
In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:33:48 GMT -5
I'm only attempting to show you both that targeting Calvinistic theology as the cause of lukewarmness and lovelessness is utterly brutish and deceptive.
Consider this statement from Thomas Watson (a Calvinist)...
"One sin lived in
(Thomas Watson, "The Godly Man's Picture Drawn with a Scripture Pencil")
A godly man considers the mischief which one sin lived in, will do.
1. One sin lived in, gives Satan as much advantage against you as more sins. The fowler can hold a bird by one wing. Satan held Judas fast by one sin.
2. One sin lived in, proves that the heart is not sound. He who hides one rebel in his house is a traitor to the crown. The person who indulges one sin is a traitorous hypocrite!
3. One sin lived in, will make way for more—as a little thief can open the door to more. Sins are linked and chained together. One sin will draw on more. David's adultery made way for murder. One sin never goes alone! If there is only one nest egg—the devil can brood on it!
4. One sin lived in, is as much a breach of God's law as more sins. "Whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all." (James 2:10) The king may make a law against felony, treason and murder. If a man is guilty of only one of these—he is a transgressor.
5. One sin lived in, prevents Christ from entering. One stone in the pipe keeps out the water. One sin indulged in, obstructs the soul and keeps the streams of Christ's blood from running into it!
6. One sin lived in, will spoil all your good duties. One dead fly will spoil the whole box of precious ointment. A drop of poison will spoil a glass of wine. Abimelech, a bastard-son, destroyed seventy of his brethren. (Judges 9:5) One bastard-sin will destroy seventy prayers.
7. One sin lived in, will be a cankerworm to eat out the peace of conscience. "Alas! What a scorpion lies within!" (Seneca). One sin is a pirate—to rob a Christian of his comfort. One jarring string puts all the music out of tune. One sin lived in—will spoil the music of conscience.
8. One sin lived in, will damn as well as more sins. One disease is enough to kill. If a fence is made ever so strong, and only one gap is left open; the wild beast may enter and tread down the corn. If only one sin is allowed in the soul, you leave open a gap for the devil to enter! A soldier may have only one gap in his armor—and the bullet may enter there. He may as well be shot there—as if he had no armor on at all. So if you favor only one sin, you leave a part of your soul unprotected—and the bullet of God's wrath may enter there—and shoot you! One sin lived in, may shut you out of heaven! What difference is there, between being shut out of heaven for one sin—or for many sins? One millstone will sink a man into the sea—as well as a hundred!
Therefore, beware of cherishing one sin! Give a certificate of divorce to every sin. Kill the Goliath sin! "Let not sin reign over you." (Romans 6:12) In the original it is "Let not sin king it over you." Grace and sin may be together—but grace and the love of sin cannot. Therefore parley with sin no longer—but with the spear of mortification, spill the heart-blood of every sin!
"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." Romans 8:13.
"So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you." Colossians 3:5"
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 26, 2008 17:36:31 GMT -5
I have not ever met one proclaimed Calvinist that would agree with those quotes.
I have met hundreds who give lip service to agreeing with those quotes in the midst of a peaceful, non threatening situation where their reputation and comfort will not be at risk.
However, in the midst of the battle with angry sinners and hypocrites raging all around they have been the most stubborn, dishonest defenders of sin and opposers of holiness and the Word of God of the whole crowd. Their champion verses (that usually takes them 3-4 days to find) are 1 John 1:8, 1 Timothy 1:15, Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 7.
They selfishly try to absorb all the time and attention of the preaching away from repentance, judgment, sin, and holiness to defend the inability of the Christian to live a holy life.
If you think otherwise you are not confronting sin directly in the life of a person.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 26, 2008 17:39:17 GMT -5
You almost never meet an Arminian.
Those who claim to be are usually not Arminian in practice but Calvinistic.
They claim not to believe in OSAS but in practice they do.
This is the way the Assemblies of God and Church of God (in general) have gone.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 17:40:32 GMT -5
I have not ever met one proclaimed Calvinist that would agree with those quotes. I have met hundreds who give lip service to agreeing with those quotes in the midst of a peaceful, non threatening situation where their reputation and comfort will not be at risk. However, in the midst of the battle with angry sinners and hypocrites raging all around they have been the most stubborn, dishonest defenders of sin and opposers of holiness and the Word of God of the whole crowd. Their champion verses (that usually takes them 3-4 days to find) are 1 John 1:8, 1 Timothy 1:15, Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 7. They selfishly try to absorb all the time and attention of the preaching away from repentance, judgment, sin, and holiness to defend the inability of the Christian to live a holy life. If you think otherwise you are not confronting sin directly in the life of a person. I agree, many may give intellectual assent to such quotations, but when it comes to their spiritual walk they live in constant defeat. Which is exactly a result of the Calvinistic teachings of Grace. I guess many overlook such portions of scriptures such as: Titus 2:11-12 (11.) For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, (12.) teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age, In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:41:20 GMT -5
Calvinist who teach easy-believism are not truly Calvinistic... they usually come from Dallas Seminary or Moody Bible Institute Dispensationalism camps.
Their OSAS is not from Historic Calvinism. Again, if your going to be true to your thread topic. Change the title to Easy-Believism or OSAS is the Hindrance.
Historic Calvinism teaches...
Perseverance of the Saints
What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8; Ecc 3:14; Isa 46:4; Jer 32:40; Rom 11:29; Phi 1:6; 2 Tim 4:18
Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
John 6:39-40; John 10:27-29; Rom 8:28-31; Rom 8:35-39; Heb 7:25; Heb 10:14
God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-27; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:7-8; Rev 22:14-15
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
John 15:16; 1Cor 1:30-31; 1Cor 6:11; 1Cor 12:3; 1Cor 15:10; Gal 3:1-6; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13; 1The 5:23-24; Heb 13:20-21; 1John 2:29; Jud 1:24-25
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 17:46:28 GMT -5
This is exactly what causes people not to take their Christian walk seriously. (1.) What God begins, he finishes (2.) Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost (3.) God’s preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith (4.) However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:51:37 GMT -5
The Arminian believes that Grace saves you from your sins, But in that grace may fail toward a true regenerate child of God.
Easy- believism (which is not Historic Calvinism) teaches that Grace saves you in your sins, and it's up to you if you want to live holy or not... but either way, grace doesn't fail.
Historic Calvinism teaches that grace saves you from your sins, and that Grace is victorious only toward God's Elect. It is God who justifies and Sanctifies. Their is no such thing as a continuously carnal Christian or a begotten child of God enslaved to sin.
Historic Calvinism teaches that...
Grace is needed - Man is unwilling and unable to free himself from His death
Grace was planned - By the Father before the foundation of the world
Grace was secured - By the Son when he laid down His life for the sheep and bore the sin of many
Grace is applied - By the spirit through the preaching of the gospel and washing of regeneration
Grace is victorious - Man continues in holiness unto the Lord because He is a new creature
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 17:56:58 GMT -5
Arminianism versus Christianity
The Five Points of Arminianism 1. Partial Depravity. This is the belief that the sinner is not totally unable to come to God; instead, the sinner has a "free will" to be able to accept salvation or to reject salvation. 2. Conditional Election. This is the belief that God chose to save certain people before the foundation of the world based on what He saw they would do; God chose those who He foresaw would accept salvation. 3. Universal Atonement. This is the belief that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception; Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for everyone, made an atonement for everyone, redeemed everyone, including those who eventually end up in hell. 4. Resistible Grace. This is the belief that a sinner can resist God's will and remain unsaved even when God wants to save him. 5. Conditional Perseverance. This is the belief that one can lose his salvation after being saved and that one's continuing in the faith is conditioned on the person, and not on Christ's work.
The Five Points of Christianity 1. Total depravity. Every human being by nature is under the wrath of God, owing a debt to God's law and justice that they cannot pay. They have no ability nor desire to come to the true God for salvation. 2. Unconditional Election. God chose to save some people by the blood and righteousness of Christ before the foundation of the world based solely upon His good pleasure to do so. 3. Particular, Effectual Redemption. God sent Christ into the world to represent all those whom He chose before the foundation of the world and to make full atonement for all God's people. This atonement saves all for whom it was intended; there will not be a single person for whom Christ died in hell. 4. Irresistible Grace. All those whom God chose and for whom Christ died will come to Him and will be saved through the work of the Holy Spirit. God is never thwarted in His plan to save those whom He chose and for whom Christ died. 5. Preservation of God's People. All those whom God chose and for whom Christ died and who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit will be preserved by God until their dying breath and caused to continue to walk in the way of truth and to continue believing the true gospel. (Carpenter)
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 17:57:35 GMT -5
Do you hold to "double predestination" also Abraham? Do you beleive that even our sins were predestined to happen no matter what they may entail? Do you believe that man can't willfully come to God once the message has been presented to them? Do you believe that God is just by sending sinners to hell who never had the ability in themselves to choose life?
In Christ Matt
P.S: I'm not Arminian, I hold to the doctrines MGT.
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 18:10:12 GMT -5
Their are different types of views concerning Double predestination. One view holds that God arbitrarily chose to not have mercy upon fallen in Adam, unprofitable, and vain men (who were not yet born). The other view holds that God arbitrarily chose to not have mercy upon men who were neither in an holy or sinful disposition (who have not yet been born).
I'm not sure which one it is... But, double predestination is clearly taught in Romans 9. The only way that can get around it is if find some modern commentary that will explain it away for you. Just read Romans and when you come to 8-11... you will see what I mean. It takes about 2 hours to read through it a pondering pace. I encourage you to read it.
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 18:15:10 GMT -5
Read Acts 1-4.
Who's hand determined, counseled, and ordained that Men should crucify the Christ?
The most devilish sin has been committed.. Could God have stopped it? Why didn't He?
Read (Paul Washer's) Heartcrymissionary's statement on doctrine concerning God's providence and election.
PROVIDENCE. God, from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet not in any way as to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.
ELECTION. Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life-- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ-- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 18:25:42 GMT -5
Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace (False) Jeremiah 3:14Turn back, O backsliding sons, An affirmation of Jehovah. For I have ruled over you, And taken you one of a city, and two of a family, And have brought you to Zion, It is clear from the above verse that turning to God involves a free will choice. God doesn't select a certain number to turn unto Him, but He pleads with man to turn from their sin(s) of adultery. Jeremiah 31:32Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah. God is the husband of His people, and when one commits adultery by turning away from His Holiness this makes void His covenant. Jeremiah 3:8And I see when (for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery) I have sent her away, and I give the bill of her divorce unto her, that treacherous Judah her sister hath not feared, and goeth and committeth fornication -- she also. Also the New Covenant is no different in our relationship to God in this respect. For example Matthew 22:2 states "The reign of the heavens was likened to a man, a king, who made marriage-feasts for his son," Then in Matthew 22:8 Jesus continues this illustration "then saith he to his servants, The marriage-feast indeed is ready, and those called were not worthy." So in the Old Testament God is represented as the husband and in the New Testament Christ is represented as the bridegroom. (Therefore our relationship to God is the equivalent of a marriage.)Revelations 19:7-9 makes this representation very clear: (7.) may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready; (8.) and there was given to her that she may be arrayed with fine linen, pure and shining, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.' (9.) And he saith to me, `Write: Happy [are] they who to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb have been called;' and he saith to me, `These [are] the true words of God;' So is there a such thing as Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace? (Not according to scripture)In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 26, 2008 18:43:23 GMT -5
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 26, 2008 18:50:01 GMT -5
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Post by danlirette on Jan 26, 2008 19:19:50 GMT -5
In the past I have been apprehensive about speaking out against Calvinism in a general sense because so many godly and honorable men from the past have been Calvinists (such as Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon, the Puritans, etc.). I did not agree with their theology but I respected them as men of God and believed they lived holy lives. However, now even though I respect these great men I believe this theology is one of the biggest if not the biggest obstacle to the true gospel going forth. It takes the edge off of the sword of the Spirit. Their message is ineffective. I have found the majority of its adherents are stubborn and dishonest. They fight for sin harder than they fight against sin. They give lip service to believing Christians cannot live in sin but then object to Christians living free and above sin. I appreciate Ray Comfort and respect the work he is doing. However there are too many "Comfort Clones" who believe evangelism begins and ends with Ray Comfort. Anyone who does not do it exactly like Ray and Kirk are ignorant and not in "the know". They give lip service to the need to preach against sin, label sin, confront sin, etc. but DO NOT DO IT! I am not referring here to Ray Comfort himself but am referring to many of the "Comfort Clones." This is all well and good if they are just beginning and God bless them for trying to get started and do something. However, if preaching is done in a vague, ambiguous, bland way where the listeners do not clearly understand. They are careful to isolate the sin from the sinner, something even Ray Comfort and Spurgeon say we are not to do. It fails to make an impression on the hearer of his true condition and his danger. They do not understand the mindset of sinners and the negative effect of their message because they never directly confront the critical and necessary issues and expose the true heart of the sinner. They do not understand what the sinner truly believes about himself and God because they do not confront him where he is at in a way that is direct and clear that exposes him. On a similiar note I firmly believe well known ministries that have been mentioned on here before have a good message for the church but not concerning evangelism or salvation. I regularly supported some of these financially for years when I was a school teacher. I have no regrets of this. I read the books over and over, I bought the tapes, and went to the conferences and enjoyed all of it. I remember one of the classes I went to during a conference. The teacher from the school was speaking on the office of the evangelist. I had been street preaching for about a year at the time. I asked the teacher in front of the class about the role of street preaching and the evangelist. One of the comments he made was "You can preach at cars but cars do not get saved!" I agree but I do not think this man knew a thing in the world about open air preaching. In listening to one of these ministries tapes and reading their books I learned they believed a Christian can live in known sin but just needs to grow. He does not actually believe a Christian can live a victorious life over sin or at least gives that impression when he teaches. I believe this is the subtle influence of Calvinism on them even though these ministries would not claim to be Calvinists. Another minister whose book I read years ago and enjoyed it very much works closely with this other minister's school of ministry. I have ran into students who are in campus groups under his ministry. They gather around in the lawn, sing songs, dance with body piercings (the leaders), painted hair, tight clothes, but never confront sinners and call them to repentance. They talk much of prayer and I hope they do pray but if they live in sin God will not hear or answer their prayers. They claim they cannot be free from sin or stop sinning. They do sin because they never speak out or confront the sin all around them. They give lip service and mental acknowledgement to the necessity to do this but never do it. These ministers have a good message for the church to live sacrificially, radical discipleship, revival and prayer but I do not believe they adequately or properly prepare the church for evangelism. They do not understand the mindset of the sinner because they do not confront them directly in their sin and call them directly to total repentance. In order to know the heart of a person they must be confronted directly on their idols. Their false ideas must be exposed. Being vague or general fails to do this. I addressed this in a different thread but the thread got off topic because of personal attacks. I would agree that your words are correct of some, but certainly not the majority of Believers who hold to Calvinism or Arminianism. In actuality, I can think of more, off the top of my head, who effected more transofrmation in society that were of the Calvinistic persuasion than the Arminian persuasion. Calvinism and Arminianism etc etc have absolutely no bearing on the Gospel and it's effectiveness in our lives whatsoever. How so? Wesley was Arminian; his fruit speaks for itself. Spurgeon was Calvinist; his fruit speaks for itself. I could list volumes of individuals from these camps and show their effectiveness and could as well list volumes from both camps showing their ineffectiveness. This shows that the doctrines themselves have little bearing on one's effectiveness. Effectiveness is determined on one's being Filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2; Ephesians5) and anyone, regardless of whether they are Calvinist or Arminian in doctrine, can either seek God to be Filled or not. The Spirit of God and our yeilding to Him is the determining factor.
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Post by John McGlone on Jan 26, 2008 19:40:56 GMT -5
I have never preached Calvinism or any other theo system to the lost. They need Christ and Him crucified for the remission of sin, repent and belief, confess and forsake, etc. It is rare someone asks these questions on the street. If they do I ask are you a saved Christian...etc. and if they reply yes to that line of questions then I respectully decline to deal with those issues as I did not come to preach to the saved!
Back to the question that many of my Calvinist bretheren won't answer; are you spinning theological wheels more than proclaiming the Saviour to the lost?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 26, 2008 19:47:54 GMT -5
Hey Micah,
Way to bust in to the doctrinal discussions with an inoffensive topic! ;D
Anyway, if I'm not mistaken one of the people you have written about here is Michael Brown right? I was quite surprised to see your perspective on this in the other thread. I've always considered Dr. Brown a strong advocate of repentance and holiness. Could you be more specific about why you feel this way about his ministry?
I know you've read It's Time to Rock the Boat from Dr. Brown so I'm a little confused on how you can say he's not good on evangelism. In that book he takes a strong stand for repentance, Lordship, holiness, etc. and a strong stance against OSAS, cheap-grace, etc.
I'm not interested in being anyone's apologist but to be honest you're the only person I've ever heard of who's had these kinds of criticisms for Michael Brown. Usually the criticisms come from the other end of the spectrum - the lukewarm "church".
Steve
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 26, 2008 20:28:22 GMT -5
This is a great question. This is a trend that I have seen happen over and over again. I have seen friends of mine, who were once very zealous for the lost and preaching the Gospel...then they became Calvinists and out the door went their evangelistic zeal. Not all of my friends who have become evangelists have ended up this way...but MOST have. In fact, I can only think of one that hasn't! The others don't go to the streets anymore and seem to have no care for the lost at all. They care more about Calvinism than anything! All they focus on in their studies now is Calvinism and spreading it. The Gospel doesn't matter anymore, just their "theology." It's sad...it really is...
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 26, 2008 20:35:23 GMT -5
Abraham, Below are some quotes that some on these boards would disagree with, what do you think? Is this good theology or false teaching? "In his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing, and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine grace." "Here is the shibboleth: Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is 'every imagination of the thoughts of his heart evil continually?' Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but a heathen still." "Equally sacred is the doctrine to be held, that no person can repent or truly believe except under the influence of the Spirit of God; and that we have no ground of boasting in ourselves, but that all the glory of our salvation, commenced and consummated, is to be given to God alone, as a result of the freeness and riches of his grace." Steve
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Post by abraham on Jan 27, 2008 0:30:12 GMT -5
If proclaiming the word of God's Grace and the testimony of man who were some of the greatest soul winners that history has ever recorded is merely spinning theological wheels... You have a false understanding of the importance of doctrine and theology in relation to the preaching of the gospel. Mormons preach that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again. Ask them what they believe all that means, and you will soon find that they are preaching a man-centered false gospel of which the bible condemns. Doctrine and theology are not matters to be taken lightly in relation to preaching the gospel. The bible no where puts a greater importance on preaching than that of preaching truth. You can preach to all 6 billion people in this world... But, you are only glorifying God if your message is God honoring and scripturally sound.
Can you imagine asking Spurgeon, "What has the LORD taught you concerning what is crucial when you preach the gospel?"
Spurgeon perhaps might answer you this... "I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross." (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).
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