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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 27, 2008 1:03:52 GMT -5
Abraham...I don't know why you even bother promoting calvinism on this message board. I guess maybe it's because people got tired of it on Sermon Index and you had to find another place to post this stuff. It really is no use...all of us were predestined by God to be non-calvinists. Really, you are fighting against God...
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Post by abraham on Jan 27, 2008 4:27:21 GMT -5
The means by which God has ordained everything includes The truth being proclaimed. The means by which God saves people and corrects stubborn hearts is through the proclamation of truth. God commands us to preach the word and teach no other doctrine (than that taught in scripture).
Though your resistance to truth has been permitted and decreed by God... Your humiliation by the truth will bring glory to His name as He shows you abundant mercy throughout all eternity by saving you from every error. you will forever give thanks to God for His mercy upon you if you are His.
So also, as He has permitted and decreed (though he is not the author nor the tempter of evil) the sinful actions of the reprobate ... In the end God shall be glorified when He pours out His eternal wrath on the wicked.
Read Romans 9. This very truth is clearly taught in this chapter.
God could have easily not have created Satan and just keep sin, pride, and lust out of the picture.
However, if God did not decree Satan and the Fall... 2 of God's glorious attributes would have never been manifested.
Namely Wrath and Mercy... which both bring glory to His name.
You see, your scheme of salvation is all about man, man's happiness, and God doing everything for man.
God's scheme of salvation is all about God, God's glory, and doing everything for God's glory.
One is man-centered and the other is God-centered.
Maybe God will graciously open your eyes to truth by my posts. My confidence is not you or me. I trust that God is able to teach you through the Word of God. So I am all the more compelled to beg God to reveal it to you. After all God has ordained preaching and intercession in His ordinations of saving souls from sin and lies. I do what I do, because the love of Christ compels me and I know the terror of the LORD. I don't do this because I think I can change God's decrees. Are you slowly finding out that God isn't like you thought He was? Maybe He won't reveal it to you. I'm not really doing this for you primarily. I care about you... I don't want you to be in error and deception. But, I'm really just doing this for God. I really don't care if the world in the church hates me because I testify to them the truth... That Natural Man is utterly evil, enslaved to sin, and only God can save Him. -Abraham
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Post by abraham on Jan 27, 2008 4:44:51 GMT -5
Oh, and do please pray for your brother Abraham. I'm not welcomed hardly anywhere I go. My own Sister and future-brother in Law despise my theology as well. The Fellowship that I live with is Semi-Pelagian and Pelagian. One of my pastors has warned me to never talk about the doctrines of grace with any of the Bible College students ever again. I could lose my job, home, and fellowship... for what I believe.
You may see it as me babbling on about Calvinism and some man made system of theology. However, my biblical convictions are that I'm merely discussion the grace of God's gospel. A matter in which we should be shocked if it is not our obsession.
Your in my prayers. -Abraham
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Jan 27, 2008 13:29:38 GMT -5
Oh, and do please pray for your brother Abraham. I'm not welcomed hardly anywhere I go. My own Sister and future-brother in Law despise my theology as well. The Fellowship that I live with is Semi-Pelagian and Pelagian. One of my pastors has warned me to never talk about the doctrines of grace with any of the Bible College students ever again. I could lose my job, home, and fellowship... for what I believe. You may see it as me babbling on about Calvinism and some man made system of theology. However, my biblical convictions are that I'm merely discussion the grace of God's gospel. A matter in which we should be shocked if it is not our obsession. Your in my prayers. -Abraham Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong on the doctrine of Calvinism? In Christ Matt
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Post by abraham on Jan 27, 2008 15:25:27 GMT -5
Yes, I have... I spent 2 years searching the scriptures and I never intended to become Calvinistic. I slowly studied books like Isaiah, Song of Solomon, John, 1 John, Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, as well as searching through the New Testament.
Would you agree that God's love for us is not based on our performance and spirituality... but merely because God is love and merciful?
If not, than God loves you more than so and so because you are more spiritual. I hope you don't believe that.
If you do believe it's because He is love and merciful, Why Does God Love this woman in Song of Solomon like no other woman. Why does He draw her and bring her into His banqueting house, and not all woman.
Doesn't God have the right to love one woman more than another woman (if in both cases his love is an act of mercy undeserved).
Or, is your eye evil because God is good?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 27, 2008 16:45:52 GMT -5
Abraham, Below are some quotes that some on these boards would disagree with, what do you think? Is this good theology or false teaching? "In his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing, and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine grace." "Here is the shibboleth: Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is 'every imagination of the thoughts of his heart evil continually?' Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but a heathen still." "Equally sacred is the doctrine to be held, that no person can repent or truly believe except under the influence of the Spirit of God; and that we have no ground of boasting in ourselves, but that all the glory of our salvation, commenced and consummated, is to be given to God alone, as a result of the freeness and riches of his grace." Steve
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 27, 2008 16:58:12 GMT -5
I think that Micah has a great point. Modern Calvinists are a huge hindrance to the preaching of repentance and holiness.
Even John Piper said, "We all sin, every single day." etc etc.
Now, Piper might not represent old fashion Calvinism, maybe the Puritans believed it was possible to live sinless or to live sin free, but many modern Calvinists completely deny that Christians can live a sinless life, that is, a sin free life.
Now Piper even said, "The GREATEST NEWS that I've ever heard is that the sins I AM GOING TO COMMIT on Monday are ALREADY FORGIVEN." That is "the greatest news" the Calvinism of Piper offers?? I believe that the bible offers even greater news, though some might call it Pelagianism, but that news is this: PIPER, YOU DON'T HAVE TO COMMIT THOSE SINS NEXT MONDAY!!
They seem to preach defeatism rather then victory. Saying things to the nature of "We all sin every day. We can't help it. We can't stop it. But God doesn't see our sin. God looks at us and see's Jesus instead." Etc etc.
The Calvinists in the days of John Fletcher and John Wesley were the same. Antinomianism was a huge problem in the Calvinists circles of his day, just like the preaching of Martin Luther rested in a great deal of lawlessness amongst the Lutherans (according to a contemporary of Luther).
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Post by abraham on Jan 27, 2008 17:16:31 GMT -5
Well said Jesse... and no it's not Pelagianism. It's what the bible declares all throughout scripture. (Victory in Christ over slavery to sin.)
I've often told people that Paul's exhortation to...
Rejoice Evermore Pray without ceasing In everything give thanks
...leaves no room for sin. Our aim should be to please Him and hate sin more today than yesterday by the grace of God.
This cheap grace calvinism (antinomianism) is a huge hindrance... It's also been termed intellectual Calvinism which is a devil in itself.
However, it's not because of the doctrines of Grace that Carnality is everywhere. It's because a cheap and false grace is being preached. A grace that saves you in your sins and not from your sins. A false repentance is being preached. Preachers have dumbed it down to a mere decision, raising of the hand, or lip confession with no heart change. When the bible says cast away from you all your transgressions... make you a new heart... do works meet for repentance... hate your own life... forsake your ways and your thoughts... deny yourself... be afflicted and mourn... be ashamed... acknowledge your offenses... be angry and sin not... sin no more... cease from evil... without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
It's because many preach and teach as though Jesus never gave us a law to obey.
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Post by abraham on Jan 27, 2008 17:17:26 GMT -5
As I stated before...
I'm only attempting to show you both that targeting Calvinistic theology as the cause of lukewarmness and lovelessness is utterly brutish and deceptive.
Consider this statement from Thomas Watson (a Calvinist)...
"One sin lived in
(Thomas Watson, "The Godly Man's Picture Drawn with a Scripture Pencil")
A godly man considers the mischief which one sin lived in, will do.
1. One sin lived in, gives Satan as much advantage against you as more sins. The fowler can hold a bird by one wing. Satan held Judas fast by one sin.
2. One sin lived in, proves that the heart is not sound. He who hides one rebel in his house is a traitor to the crown. The person who indulges one sin is a traitorous hypocrite!
3. One sin lived in, will make way for more—as a little thief can open the door to more. Sins are linked and chained together. One sin will draw on more. David's adultery made way for murder. One sin never goes alone! If there is only one nest egg—the devil can brood on it!
4. One sin lived in, is as much a breach of God's law as more sins. "Whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all." (James 2:10) The king may make a law against felony, treason and murder. If a man is guilty of only one of these—he is a transgressor.
5. One sin lived in, prevents Christ from entering. One stone in the pipe keeps out the water. One sin indulged in, obstructs the soul and keeps the streams of Christ's blood from running into it!
6. One sin lived in, will spoil all your good duties. One dead fly will spoil the whole box of precious ointment. A drop of poison will spoil a glass of wine. Abimelech, a bastard-son, destroyed seventy of his brethren. (Judges 9:5) One bastard-sin will destroy seventy prayers.
7. One sin lived in, will be a cankerworm to eat out the peace of conscience. "Alas! What a scorpion lies within!" (Seneca). One sin is a pirate—to rob a Christian of his comfort. One jarring string puts all the music out of tune. One sin lived in—will spoil the music of conscience.
8. One sin lived in, will d**n as well as more sins. One disease is enough to kill. If a fence is made ever so strong, and only one gap is left open; the wild beast may enter and tread down the corn. If only one sin is allowed in the soul, you leave open a gap for the devil to enter! A soldier may have only one gap in his armor—and the bullet may enter there. He may as well be shot there—as if he had no armor on at all. So if you favor only one sin, you leave a part of your soul unprotected—and the bullet of God's wrath may enter there—and shoot you! One sin lived in, may shut you out of heaven! What difference is there, between being shut out of heaven for one sin—or for many sins? One millstone will sink a man into the sea—as well as a hundred!
Therefore, beware of cherishing one sin! Give a certificate of divorce to every sin. Kill the Goliath sin! "Let not sin reign over you." (Romans 6:12) In the original it is "Let not sin king it over you." Grace and sin may be together—but grace and the love of sin cannot. Therefore parley with sin no longer—but with the spear of mortification, spill the heart-blood of every sin!
"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live." Romans 8:13.
"So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you." Colossians 3:5"
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 27, 2008 17:36:59 GMT -5
Here is a link to the video where Piper said, "We all sin every day. But the greatest news I've ever heard is that the sins I'm going to commit on Monday are already forgiven" video.google.com/videosearch?q=john+piper+desario&so=0I am not sure exactly which video is was. But it is one of them.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 28, 2008 12:46:54 GMT -5
I have I think it is Thomas Watson's book on "The Ten Commandments". If it is not Watson it is definitely another Puritan.
He is very forthright in proclaiming we are all going to sin every day in word, thought and deed.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 28, 2008 12:53:38 GMT -5
Steve,
I have read all of Michael Brown's books like "It's Time to Rock the Boat", "The End of the American Gospel Enterprise", "From Holy Laughter to Holy Fire", "Whatever Happened to the Power of God", and "How Saved Are We" multiple times each. I love them all.
That was why I was surprised when I heard him saying these things on this tape. I believe he says the same things in his book "Go and Sin No More!".
Yes, it is one thing to mentally acknowledge these things and their necessity, however it is quite another to actually do them.
Many begin to capitulate when someone is challenged to do this or someone else actually does it and they see the response.
Yes he advocates these things but do his disciples practice it?
I can tell you for a fact the disciples of Lou Engle's groups on campus do not (unless they are lying about who they are affiliated with).
Do they sing songs? Yes.
Do they dance? Yes.
Do they talk about the Bible? Yes.
Do they confront sin directly in the lives of people and urge them of the necessity of total repentance and the consequence of spending eternity in hell for not doing this? NO! A THOUSAND TIMES NO!
Do they say we need to do these things? Yes but they never seem to manage to get around to doing them.
Same thing with the 5-Point Calvinists.
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 28, 2008 13:48:56 GMT -5
Abraham,
I am not going to read through long articles written by other people.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 28, 2008 15:12:52 GMT -5
Abraham, Thanks for what you have typed in this thread , especially pages 1 and 2 Thank you for honouring God and what He has done and what He is doing. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165). I do know that all of my conversion was by God's grace, conviction of sin , humiliation , repentance, meeting with true Christians who shared the Gospel with me, faith to believe the Gospel , revelation that Jesus has paid everything on the Cross , baptism of the Holy Spirit, all is from Him so that noone boasts.
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djpray
Junior Member
"Filipino" Preacher Man!
Posts: 86
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Post by djpray on Jan 28, 2008 18:25:36 GMT -5
Micah,
If you will read a little more of the Puritan's writings, you will see that their definition of sin is very likely much stronger than your own definition. They had higher standards than probably you, me and many others on this board. Because of those high standards, sometimes you might come across statements like "we are going to sin everyday". In fact, I would go so far as to say that according to the Puritan's standards, you do sin everyday (and me also, as well as others). Now whether their definition of sin was correct or not; well that is another topic. Their high standards and strong definition of sin made it inevitable that one would violate those standards regularly. Keep these things in mind, when you consider the writings of the Puritans.
Derek
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Post by messengermicah on Jan 29, 2008 1:26:05 GMT -5
djpray,
I agree with you. Please read the first post I made on this thread.
There is no way I believe the Puritans would be like today's Calvinist's fighting for sin in the believer's life with their champion verses of Romans 7, 1 John 1:8, and 1 Timothy 1:15 with all the rampant homosexuals, fornicators, drunkards, potheads, perverts, and God haters raging against the preaching against sin on a college campus of today.
The Puritans seemed to believe being a human being was a sin.
Still the theology leads to this sin defending we see today.
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Post by debonnaire on Jan 29, 2008 7:36:09 GMT -5
Theology should depend not on the fact that some verses are used to “justify” a sinful life, otherwise it’s just another reverse straw man argument. It is not because verses are used for fleshly auto-justification that the meaning of these verses loose their meaning.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 29, 2008 16:04:23 GMT -5
Usually those who deny the possibility of perfection in this life, who say it's impossible to be sinless or free from sin, will have a definition of sin which is more then a voluntary choice of free will. They will usually define sin, not as a choice, but as a substance.
Because some believe that we have "sin" inside of us, (original sin) they claim that we will always be sinful.
Some confuse temptation with sin as well. Some call the involuntary physical desires the same thing as sin. Augustine for example said that physical lust or attraction was a sin. It doesn't matter if the Will acts on it or submits to it, the involuntary feelings and lusts of the flesh are in and of themselves a sin.
This of course is confusing temptation with sin. James said that we are tempted by the lusts of the flesh. These physical lusts are physical temptations, not any sort of physical sin.
So according to this school of theology:
- Physical desire, though involuntary, is sin
- Our physical bodies have these physical desires
- We will not get a new body until glorification or until after death
- Therefore, we are always sinful and will sin every day because we have a physical body, which contains physical sin, until we die and are glorified.
They not only confuse temptation with sin, but they also confuse sanctification with glorification because they don't distinguish between the moral and the physical.
So the Augustinians, the Calvinists, and the Puritans all taught that we will never be sinless or sin free in this life because we will always have a body, and our body is sinful, that is, the physical desires of our body are sins.
But of course the body is not sinful, the body is not a sin, the body is simply an instrument that Paul said we could "yield as instruments of unrighteousness" or "yield as instruments of righteousness".
But it is no wonder that those who believe our physical body is a physical sin would say that we cannot be without sin until we get rid of these bodies.
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Post by John McGlone on Feb 3, 2008 7:12:25 GMT -5
Abraham, the question was do YOU spin your theo wheels more than preach (kerruso) that is a public proclamation that Jesus is Lord and that men need to repent and believe the gospel.
If you are not preaching then are you not being disobedient to the very King whom you proclaimed picked you without your consent?
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Post by josh on Feb 14, 2008 8:17:34 GMT -5
I think the notion of Calvinism being a hindrance to the gospel is born out of ignorance of what Calvinism actually teaches.
One could look to history and list the evangelistic greats such as Carey, Edwards, Whitefield, Spurgeon all of who held and taught the doctrines of Grace. Now surely you wouldn't say they hindered evangelism?
The form of 'Calvinism' that hinders the gospel is that of hyper-Calvinism, which teaches a lack of holiness and a lack of evangelism. That teach is rejected by all true Calvinists.
I for one am a Reformed Baptist who teaches and preaches holiness, and I also evangelize. In fact the vast majority of those involved with the Operation 513 evangelistic ministry are Calvinists, and all leaders must adhere to either the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith or the Westminster Confession (both of which are Reformed).
One could also point to the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, which is a hard line Calvinistic church, yet they are out on the streets weekly evangelizing, and they also hold an evangelistic service once a week. (I found this to be the case with many Calvinistic churches in England) - Needless to say they all preach holiness as well!
So again I must say, to state that Calvinism hinders the gospel, shows a complete lack of understanding and ignorance of the Doctrines of Grace.
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