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Post by danlirette on Feb 5, 2008 23:05:14 GMT -5
Dear Mr Lirette: Let me apologize for the delay in replying to your question sent to the North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. As retired director of the church's Biblical Research Institute they forwarded your inquiry to me, but the delay is my fault, not theirs.
Are Adventists a cult? Generally today this is a pejorative term applied to small groups who follow a charismatic leader. They also often depart from well accepted doctrines in the established churches. In earlier times the word cult had a broader meaning. In the New Testament early Christians were referred to as a sect, although that word carries less condemnation than cult (Acts 5:17, 15:5 et al.) More recent translations often use different terms. Incidentally, under John Wesley's leadership early Methodists were condemned by many in the Anglican communion as a cult.
Adventists do not well fit the current use of cult. The very name of the church, Adventist, is a focus on the second coming of Christ, which is found in virtually all the creeds of traditional churches. The Seventh-day part derives from the apostolic practice of observing the seventh day as sacred time, following the instruction of the Creator as recorded in Genesis(chapter 2:2,3,)repeated in the fourth commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20) One of several examples of apostolic Sabbath observance is found in Acts 16:13, where the Sabbath was being honored by Paul in Philippi, in the absence of any Jewish community. It is a serious effort to follow the actual teachings of the Bible that leads Adventists to depart from the tradition on which Sunday observance rests. It is for this departure some people apply the word cult to us. The teachings of our church rest firmly on the Scriptures themselves. The church has a statement of 28 topics that define the basic beliefs of our denomination, which is available on their website.
Another item that draws frequent condemnation is that we recognize that the prophetic gift may be given at any time,even today in the Christian faith.(See Ephesians 4:11-13). We recognize that gift in the work of a 19th century woman named Ellen G White. We see her work as comparable to other non-canonical prophets found in the apostolic church, for example in four daughters of Philip who prophesied and the work of Agabus (Acts 21:8-11). None of these contributed a book to the Bible, but were counselors guided by the Spirit to enrich the church. Those who believe the prophetic gift of the Spirit ended with the apostles of course have difficulty with a modern inspired person. To be perfectly clear, Ellen White saw herself as an encourager of the church, not an originator of doctrines or practices, which is the way we see her work.
Others criticize our emphasis on healthful living. However, the Scriptures teach that God has an interest in the body and mind and that we belong to Him and are responsible for care of His property. While we do not observe the rabbinic rituals that imposed uncleanness on people who violated their rules, we honor God in care for our bodies (1 Cor. 3:16-17). As a part of healthful diet we avoid flesh God designated as not for food, the distinction beginning at the time of Noah, many centuries before the first Jew (Gen. 7:2). In recognition that God gave to Adam and Eve the ideal diet(Gen. 1:29)which was a plant-based program, we encourage our members to consider the plant based menu now so strongly praised on scientific grounds, but this is no church requirement. We acknowledge that in parts of the world a fully plant based diet is unavailable.
Mr. Lirette, I have gone to some length to cite several reasons why we are criticized,providing brief responses. We do not believe these justify the application of the term, cult, to us. We are dedicated Christians with a faith in Jesus as sole source of salvation, and a way of life living for Him as taught in the Scriptures. As is the case with all Christian groups, each has its special points that differ from others. Respecting salvation, our position is very near that of the reformer, Martin Luther. In fact at the conclusion of a recent series of conferences with theologians of the World Lutheran Federation, they concluded after an intensive investigation that the Adventists should be recognized as a legitimate free church in the Christian communion and should not be identified as a cult. As a rapidly growing evangelical body now with more than 16 million members in 185 countries we do not see how we fit what is usually meant by a cult. I invite you to investigate for yourself the Adventist church, not relying on our enemies to provide your source of information. You will find Adventists a deeply committed Christian group doing its best to fulfill Christ's parting command that we go to all the world carrying the good news of His saving grace and His return in glory to take His children to the Kingdom. May God lead you in all you do.
Your brother in Christ,
George W Reid, Th D Retired director, Biblical Research Institute
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 5, 2008 23:34:47 GMT -5
I'm not implying anything this is just an honest question. Do you think they are Biblical in their teachings to the point that wouldn't classify them as a cult? (The denomination as a whole.)
In Christ Matt
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 5, 2008 23:47:44 GMT -5
I'm not implying anything this is just an honest question. Do you think they are Biblical in their teachings to the point that wouldn't classify them as a cult? (The denomination as a whole.) In Christ Matt They believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel in the flesh...that's enough for me
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 0:28:05 GMT -5
Brother Matt, to answer your question, I'm not sure... I'm waiting on a few more replies; as it stands, I have a hard time considering them Christian and a hard time considering them a cult... on a whole, I'm not sure if I would classify them as a cult, but they certainly have abberant teachings! I'm looking forward to the next reply I receive from the former director.
Brother RevK, you're a perfect textbook example of why the individual writing states "I invite you to investigate for yourself the Adventist church, not relying on our enemies to provide your source of information." You see, RevK, they do not teach this anylonger and have not for years; you're promoting falsehood and are guilty of sin in doing so, as you paint them with a brush of "They teach..." Perhaps you should stop relying on Google and go to their official doctrine yourself, as I have, as it will help you in staying free from sin by accusing falsely and thus promoting falsehood and lies. Their official doctrine states: "God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)" Again, we read, "There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)" I'm not seeking to be "mean", RevK... I simply don't think it's very fair that you'd say things that are false, thus showing you've not even gone to their own textbook resources before making such outlandish statements.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 6, 2008 0:38:09 GMT -5
Dan, I had no reason to believe that my sources were not reliable. It's not sin if I wasn't doing it willfully brother. My post wasn't an attempt to slander anyone. It was simply me stating the facts as I knew them. IF I am wrong, I will correct myself. What are the sources for your own statements concerning the SDA? I have run into SDAers on the streets and they have stated I am right. And I am talking about not too long ago. Also, if I remember correctly, I believe one of the SDAers on this message board stated that was true. So, I am not "guilty of sin" as you say. I understand your concern, but hold off on the accusations brother. Maybe your sources are wrong. Maybe your sources don't speak for all SDAers. I have a friend who spoke to a Mormon and a JW not too long ago...and NEITHER one of them held to the Mormon or JW false beliefs. They had NO IDEA that the Mormons or JW's believed such things and had never been taught those things themselves. So, when I say that SDAers believe that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel in the flesh, it is based on recent past experience and reliable sources...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 6, 2008 0:41:25 GMT -5
Dan,
I think your being too hard on Kerrigan. I don't think he was at all trying to slander or misrepresent SDA. It seems he simply and honestly confused SDA with Jehovah Witnesses.
From my understanding, the SDA actually have a sound doctrine of the Godhead. I own a book published by the SDA called "Defending the Godhead" where they scripturally argue for the three Divine Persons of the Godhead.
It is the Jehovah witnesses that believe Jesus was the angel Michael.
It's not the Godhead, but other doctrinal issues where the SDA are mistaken, namely the requirement of the Saturday Sabbath.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 6, 2008 0:54:21 GMT -5
Here is one example of an SDAer on this message board stating that Jesus is Michael the Archangel in the flesh...just 7 months ago! CLICK HERE
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 0:55:12 GMT -5
Jesse: You're mistaken; the SDA's in fact used to teach that Michael and Jesus were the same person... some still do, but not the church as a whole.RevK made an accusation taht was falsehood before confirming his statement befopre posting it; a simple click on their creedal site would have prevented anyone from reading a lie. As well, the Saturday Sabbath is not a requirement for salvation with SDA's anylonger; at least not on a whole. I'm not sure where you've received your information either, but it wasn't from tehir official creed which was changed years ago.
RevK: I do retract that it would be sin... because you're right; if you didn't know then it would not be sin to you... nonetheless, saying such things, however, is still falsehood. All you had to do, brother, was go to their site to confirm your statement before posting a lie concerning their beliefs which they no longer hold to.
Nonetheless, I concede I've done it as well in the past.
Most likely, by reading trustandobey and others, many of us have a warped view of SDA's as they appear to represent mainstream SDA's but in fact do not, according to SDA doctrine itself.
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 0:57:14 GMT -5
Here is one example of an SDAer on this message board stating that Jesus is Michael the Archangel in the flesh...just 7 months ago! CLICK HERERev, there you go again You claim that after your post here you're not spreading falsehood now that you know what SDA's teach officially? I gave you the beneift of the doubt that you weren't spreading deliberate lies, and after showing you their official statement, you're using one man to promote lies. You're using one individual to endorse your personal bias which is not even supported by the SDA's as a whole. That would be like me saying all baptists were like Fred Phelps. I do encourage you to examine your heart, RevK.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 6, 2008 0:58:36 GMT -5
Dan, just because you went on some SDA website that says they don't believe that anymore, doesn't mean that the majority of SDAers don't believe it anymore. You looked on a website...the very thing you accused me of. How do you know that website represents the majority of the SDAers worldwide? I did not speak falsehood either Dan. I haven't been proven wrong yet. By the way, Dan, why would I bother to check a website to see if I was correct or not if I thought I was correct. Should I check the Mormon or JW website every time I post something about them to see if their beliefs have changed in the last day or so? I don't think so. Dan, sometimes I think you are just looking to find something wrong with what someone types...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 6, 2008 0:59:31 GMT -5
Examine my heart? Dan, you have lost it man...I'm done with this conversation...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 6, 2008 1:00:25 GMT -5
So some SDA say Jesus and Michael are the same (therefore Revk was not mistaken)
And some SDA say that they are not, but hold to the Godhead (therefore I was not mistaken)
It seems that the confusion arises out of the fact that there is division or disagreement amongst SDA, and also the fact that your saying the official SDA has flip flopped a few times.
A major objection that I have to this denomination is that it was started by a women - Ellen White.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 6, 2008 1:02:47 GMT -5
Dan,
Are you considering becoming a follower of Ellen White? Are you struggling with the idea of joining the SDA Church?
I only ask because you are taking this issue very serious and personally.
Revk has simply stated what SDA have told him. If Revk is misrepresenting SDA, then these SDA are misrepresenting themselves for teaching what they supposedly do not teach.
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:03:47 GMT -5
So some SDA say Jesus and Michael are the same (therefore Revk was not mistaken) And some SDA say that they are not, but hold to the Godhead (therefore I was not mistaken) It seems that the confusion arises out of the fact that there is division or disagreement amongst SDA, and also the fact that your saying the official SDA has flip flopped a few times. A major objection that I have to this denomination is that it was started by a women - Ellen White. I would somehwat agree with this... however, the official SDA statement of Faith if not what RevK and some cult member SDA's are saying. Mainstream SDA churches teach that Jesus Christ is God. My information comes from the international SDA headquaters, which provides doctrinal standards for all SDA churches... not "some website" as RevK put it. Officially, and by the millions, SDA's do not teach what people like trustandobey claims is truth. I personally know some SDA's and they are Born Again and don't come close to RevK's definition of what an SDA believes. Millions attest to the fact that Jesus is God, His Blood saves and we're saved by Grace.
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:04:55 GMT -5
Dan, Are you considering becoming a follower of Ellen White? Nope I can publically state E G White was a false prophetess.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:05:15 GMT -5
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:06:59 GMT -5
Dan, Are you considering becoming a follower of Ellen White? Are you struggling with the idea of joining the SDA Church? I only ask because you are taking this issue very serious and personally. Revk has simply stated what SDA have told him. If Revk is misrepresenting SDA, then these SDA are misrepresenting themselves for teaching what they supposedly do not teach. I'm really not taking it personally, and I apologize iof it seems that way... I really do. I enjoy your Ministry, revK; I don't want you to think I'm picking on you...I really don't. Jesse... I did giggle a bit at the "Are you thinking of joining the SDA's?" haha never!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Feb 6, 2008 1:09:08 GMT -5
It's sort of like the LDS Church.
They used to teach that black people could not join the Church. Now they officially allow it.
They used to teach Polygamy, even as a requirement for Heaven, but now they "Officially" do not. Though there are Mormons who still believe in and practice Polygamy.
Just like the LDS, the SDA have flip flopped and changed their positions. So it is no wonder there is confusion about what they believe and teach.
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:12:24 GMT -5
You should also consider asking the SDA's about the Clear Word Bible... they make a very direct statement concenring it, oficially: Do Adventists have their own edition of the Bible called the Clear Word? "While the Clear Word Bible is printed by an Adventist publishing house, it is not endorsed nor commissioned by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but is the private enterprise of an individual.The Adventist Church does not use the Clear Word edition, which includes passages from Ellen G. White’s writings, for its worship services and Bible studies around the world, but quotes from well known and well accepted Bible translations in the various languages. In the English language for example, the church uses the King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, the New American Bible, the New International Version, and others"
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:17:01 GMT -5
It's sort of like the LDS Church. They used to teach that black people could not join the Church. Now they officially allow it. They used to teach Polygamy, even as a requirement for Heaven, but now they "Officially" do not. Though there are Mormons who still believe in and practice Polygamy. Just like the LDS, the SDA have flip flopped and changed their positions. So it is no wonder there is confusion about what they believe and teach. I'm not sure the term "flipp flopped" is appropriate, as the SDA's as have never "flip flopped" but only progressed. They are comparable to the Worldwide Church of God, whcih is now Evangeliscal, Trinitarian and openly repented of teaching cultic teachings. The former leader, now passed away of cancer, was gloriously saved and the Lord used him to transform a cult into an Evangelical denomination; hence, the massive split. The same is correct of the SDA's... hence, the massive split. I'm not sure the attitude you have with those who have went from unregenerate to Evangelical is the Christian attitude to take, Brother Jesse. You may perhaps consider encouraging those within it's ranks who are seeking God to continue doing so. The SDA's are no different in the fundamentals than you or I... and if I am wrong, please share this with me from their own material, rather than presuppositions based on "discernment sites" using information from over a decade ago Thus far, I see no issue with the SDA's in Soteriology.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:23:44 GMT -5
Their whole position on the dietary laws is almost border lining earning their salvation. A lot of the SDA'ers are vegetarians and as far as I know it is mandatory amoung most SDA churches for the members not to eat red meat.
And it wasn't even that long ago that one couldn't even drink coffee or tea. But recently they have uplifted this ban, but they still encourage their members not to drink such beverages.
In Christ Matt
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:29:05 GMT -5
There whole position on the dietary laws is almost border lining earning their salvation. A lot of the SDA'ers are vegetarians and as far as I know it is mandatory amoung most SDA churches for the members not to eat red meat. And it wasn't even that long ago that one couldn't even drink coffee or tea. But recently they have uplifted this ban, but they still encourage their members not to drink such beverages. In Christ Matt They have since changed their stance on this officially and practically... here are some of their current and over a decade old beliefs which all mainstream members abide by (which all denominations abide by creeds): SDA's on diet: The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not condone removing a person from hospital care or failing to seek professional medical care."The church does not condone extreme diets, the removal of children from medical care or the failure to seek advice from health professionals," says Bevan Hokin, pathology director at Sydney Adventist Hospital in Wahroonga, New South Wales. "We believe in health care.""The choice of diet is a personal matter," says Melissa Harris, former associate director of the Adventist Health department in the South Pacific. "Adventists encourage rational and responsible decision-making about what foods to eat. Diet alone is not a treatment for disease or illness."SDA's on meat: Being a vegetarian is not a requirement to be a Seventh-day Adventist, and we do not believe people who choose an alternative dietary lifestyle will miss out on salvation.Not all Adventists are vegetarian. A lifestyle survey by the Adventist Health in the South Pacific in 2001 revealed that only 50% of older Adventists and a quarter of younger church members are vegetarians.Adventists believe in a holistic approach to religion, which includes honouring God with our minds, bodies and souls. The holistic approach recommends a predominantly vegetarian diet, where such is practically possible, that includes eggs and dairy products. Research shows Adventists who follow a vegetarian lifestyle and refrain from alcohol, tobacco and other harmful substances greatly reduce the risk of cancer and heart disease. Visit the Adventist Health Survey for more information.SDA's on Salvation by works: Adventists believe only Jesus’ death and His resurrection make it possible for people to overcome sin and be forgiven. God provided the ultimate sacrifice so we may have the gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation can be achieved only through believing in Jesus and what He did.Adventists also believe that the way we live in faith should reflect the love and gratitude we feel for Jesus and His sacrifice. This means, among other things, helping people in need, observing the seventh-day Sabbath, and treating our bodies as “temples of God”. These ‘good works’ are a response to the assurance of salvation we have received because of our faith in Jesus, not in themselves a passport to heaven.SDA's on the Church: Seventh-day Adventists believe that many other Christians, both in history and today, worship the true God and believe their salvation comes from faith in Jesus.SDA's on the Law of God: The Ten Commandments embody the principles of God's law and express His love and purpose for humankind. Jesus Christ obeyed the Ten Commandments during His life on earth. The Ten Commandments are eternal-they are binding for all people in every age. The principles of God's law are the basis of His promise with His people and the standard of His judgement.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:32:42 GMT -5
Dan I truly think your being fooled by the so called "official position of the SDA."
I only say this because I have been reading over some former SDA testimonies of this cult.
In Christ Matt
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:36:12 GMT -5
Dan I truly think your being fooled by the so called "official position of the SDA." In Christ Matt Perhaps you're being fooled by reading decade old material? Your presupposition that I'm being fooled is a statement of opinion, not fact. In a court of law, based on evidence, the SDA's would be considered as changed. Why? They have publically repented, changed their views and trashed their former material and completely changed their doctrine on the Godhead, Salvation, etc etc and suffered the loss of tens of thousands of members as a result of it and teach one must repent and place his Faith in Jesus Christ to be Born Again. You're claiming that that is not true repentance and not a true Gospel? I ask: What is then? What is your Gospel? If it's different than their's, you're not saved and neither am I.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:38:35 GMT -5
Yeah Dan and everyone is Christian because they all hold the same mission statement as we do.
Example:
Statement Of Faith
There is one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ is God's son. He was born of a virgin as both God and man, lived a sinless life, died to atone the sins of human beings, was buried, arose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and will literally return to earth.
The Bible is God's Holy Word with out error, and is the sole authority for life.
Human beings are the special creation of God, made in His image. They fell through the sins of the first man, Adam and all human beings are sinners in need of salvation.
Salvation is a gift through repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ.
In Christ Matt
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:42:13 GMT -5
Yeah Dan and everyone is Christian because they all hold the same mission statement as we do. Example: Statement Of Faith There is one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God's son. He was born of a virgin as both God and man, lived a sinless life, died to atone the sins of human beings, was buried, arose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and will literally return to earth. The Bible is God's Holy Word with out error, and is the sole authority for life. Human beings are the special creation of God, made in His image. They fell through the sins of the first man, Adam and all human beings are sinners in need of salvation. Salvation is a gift through repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ. In Christ Matt That creed is a good one, though I'd add that there are three Persons in the Godhead You claimed Oneness before... the Early Church called Sabellianism worthy of excommunication and did not at all consder Oneness advocates Christians. Do you suppose while you held to Oneness you were not a Christian, Matt?
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:43:15 GMT -5
Dan 95% of all denominations hold such a mission statement it means absolutely nothing. I guarantee I could find at least a hundred cults that believe the same thing.
In Christ Matt
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:46:36 GMT -5
Yeah Dan and everyone is Christian because they all hold the same mission statement as we do. Example: Statement Of Faith There is one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God's son. He was born of a virgin as both God and man, lived a sinless life, died to atone the sins of human beings, was buried, arose from the grave, ascended into heaven, and will literally return to earth. The Bible is God's Holy Word with out error, and is the sole authority for life. Human beings are the special creation of God, made in His image. They fell through the sins of the first man, Adam and all human beings are sinners in need of salvation. Salvation is a gift through repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ. In Christ Matt That creed is a good one, though I'd add that there are three Persons in the Godhead You claimed Oneness before... the Early Church called Sabellianism worthy of excommunication and did not at all consder Oneness advocates Christians. Do you suppose while you held to Oneness you were not a Christian, Matt? I never held to Oneness theology. I just use different terminology but you have it in your head that since I use terminology that the Oneness people use that I am Oneness theology. We discussed this topic before, but you are to stubborn to actually listen to what I am saying. That's a pretty cowardly punch by the way Dan. In Christ Matt
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Post by danlirette on Feb 6, 2008 1:49:04 GMT -5
You told me there were three manifestations at Tim Horton's... not Person's.
When I asked you to clarify, you stated that One Person was speaking to Jesus while Jesus was being baptized in the Jordan and that it was all Jesus in varying manifestations.. I said that is not possible and your words, verbatim, were, "He can do anything He wants; He's God."
That is 100% Oneness theology and the Early Church condemned it by excommunication and anathematized Sabellious and his followers.
Again, while hodling to this doctrine (Do you still?) do you believe yuo are a Christian?
If yes, what makes you a Christain?
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Feb 6, 2008 1:52:21 GMT -5
You told me there were three manifestations at Tim Horton's... not Person's. When I asked you to clarify, you stated that One Person was speaking to Jesus while Jesus was being baptized in the Jordan... I sauid that is not possible and your words, verbatim, were, "He can do anything He wants; He's God." That is 100% Oneness theology and the Early Church condemned it by excommunication and anathematized Sabellious and his followers. Again, while hodling to this doctrine (Do you still?) do you believe yuo are a Christian? If yes, what makes yuoa Christain? Do you make a habit of lying, I hope not. This statement I did not say "When I asked you to clarify, you stated that One Person was speaking to Jesus while Jesus was being baptized in the Jordan... I sauid that is not possible and your words, verbatim, were, "He can do anything He wants; He's God."." I did in fact say 3 Permanent manifestations though and I told you my reason for using this term was because of witnessing to Muslims. It gave them a much better understanding of the trinity. In Christ Matt
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