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Post by messengermicah on Mar 8, 2008 16:16:23 GMT -5
They believe you can depart from God (Hebrews 3:12-13) and still be saved.
Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14) and He is our salvation (Matthew 1:21).
They believe you can depart from God and still be saved. In other words you can depart from Jesus and still be saved. Or still have salvation without Jesus Christ.
Ridiculous!
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Post by debonnaire on Mar 9, 2008 4:24:04 GMT -5
Indeed !
Those who depart from from Jesus, they will be among those to whom Jesus will say "depart from me, all ye who commit iniquity"
There is nothing outside Jesus, no hope , nothing. If a man does not dwell in Him, he withers , he is eventually cast outside and burns (John 15).
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Post by John McGlone on Mar 9, 2008 6:33:14 GMT -5
I have this testimony; I departed from Jesus and to my sin for a period of time in my life. I now understand that I would have been one of those branches that was to be cut off and put into the fire. Praise God, He continued to work on and with me. I realized my great danger and now I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. He that doeth righteousness, is righteous. He that doeth not righteousness...... These false teachers shall have a stricter judgement. They don't even seem to understand they are playing with the souls of men.
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Post by colton_latta on Mar 9, 2008 19:19:26 GMT -5
"And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (Matthew 7:23)
It doesn't say that i once knew you and now i dont, but it says that i never knew you at all .
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 9, 2008 19:56:51 GMT -5
There are some who will hear "I never knew you" because they were never saved.
And there are some who will hear, like the Virgins, "I know you not" (Matt. 25:12).
There are those who never knew Jesus, and there are those who no longer know Jesus.
A Christian who backslides must have a broken relationship, they are dead in their sins. Just as the prodigal son was dead when he was in his sins, the prodigal son was dead in that he didn't have a relationship with the Father, he had a broken or dead relationship. Anyone who is in sin is dead in their sin, anyone who is in sin is without a relationship with God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 9, 2008 19:58:04 GMT -5
THE CASE OF JUDAS CONSIDERED
A DISCIPLE & APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST
Anyone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ is saved. That is because in order to be a disciple of Jesus a person need to forsake everything and follow Him (Luke 14:33), they need to love God more then family (Luke 14:26), they need to pick up their cross and die (Luke 14:27).
Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ (Matt 10:1). Therefore Judas forsook everything to follow Jesus. Judas loved God more then his own family. Judas picked up his cross and decided to live a crucified life.
Judas was not only a disciple, but Judas was an Apostle who Jesus chose specifically to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons (Matt 10:1). That was the mission Jesus picked Judas for.
In fact, scripture says Judas was a friend of Jesus in whom Jesus trusted (Ps 41:9, John 13:18). And that is also evidenced by the fact that Judas was the money keeper (Jn 13:29)
But somewhere down the line Judas became a backslider. Judas began to steal and abuse his position (John 12:6). Judas choose to forsake Jesus and thereby forsake his own salvation.
Jesus Himself said that He lost Judas (Jn 17:12) and Acts 1:25 even said that Judas fell from His apostleship by transgression. Judas failed to accomplish and fulfill His Apostleship, failed to do what Jesus picked him to do - to take the gospel to the world like the rest of the Apostles (Matt 10:1). It would have been better for Judas if he was never born (Matt 26:24)
Jesus was deeply troubled by these new developments in Judas (Jn 13:12) and even expressed surprise that someone he picked would become a devil (Jn 6:70). Nevertheless the Sovereign Lord was able to adopt these new circumstances into His plans (John 13:27). (Sovereignty is not that God causes all things, but that God is able to work with all things, that God can use all things, that God can incorporate all things into His plans. That is the genius of God)
Judas is a terrible example of how a genuine disciple, even an Apostle, still has a freewill and therefore can backslide into sin, forsake the Lord, abandon the faith (Jn 6:66), and thereby forfeit his salvation, and become cut off (Romans 11:21-22) after being adopted in.
If Judas could lose his salvation (not only a disciple but also an Apostle) then any Christian could lose their salvation.
Therefore let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). Let us continue in the love of God (John 15:9). Let us persevere unto the end (Matt 24:13). Let us continue in the faith (Acts 14:22). Let us continue in the grace of God (Acts 13:43).
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HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE
"Judas was sincere, when Christ chose him to the apostleship." John Fletcher
"Judas was at first a child of the kingdom and heard it said to him with th disciples, 'You shall sit upon twelve thrones' but at last he became a child of hell" St. Chrysostom
"For both Saul and Judas were once good...Sometimes they are at first good, who afterward become and continue evil; and for this respect they are said to be written in the book of life, and blotted out of it." St. Ambrose
All from: An Equal Check to Pharisaism and Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Volume Two, pg 202, Published by Carlton & Porter
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Post by colton_latta on Mar 10, 2008 0:44:47 GMT -5
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me." (John 13:8) Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!" (John 13:9) Jesus said to him, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you." (John 13:10) For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, "Not all of you are clean." (John 13:11)
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Post by sean on Mar 10, 2008 1:06:13 GMT -5
Jesus was hardly surprised. You really think that? Seriously?
Surely, even with your unbiblical "open future" view, you would agree that Jesus knew the scriptures right?. Do you think Jesus did not understand Psalm 41? Did Peter understand the scriptures better than Jesus when he quoted Psalm 69 & 109 in Acts 1?
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 15:49:11 GMT -5
Just to go along with Jesse's point, I think we should take note to this portion of the verse.
that the scripture "might" be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
In Christ Matt
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 15:49:30 GMT -5
PARALLEL OR ANALOGOUS SCRIPTURE FULFILLMENTS
These are events found in the New Testament, which correlate with events found in the Old Testament. The scriptures used had an original meaning in the Old, yet are applicable to a situation in the New.
Examples would be:
- My Son called out of Egypt:
Hos 11:1 speaking of Israel in the Old Testament.
This is also applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Mat 2:15.
- The betrayal of a trusted friend:
Psa 41:9, David speaking of his trusted friend and counselor Ahithephel.
John 13:18, this is also applied to Jesus and his trusted friend and disciple Judas.
There was no prophecy that Judas needed to fulfill. But the Bible does say that Judas fulfilled the scripture, but not that Judas fulfilled prophecy. Judas fulfilled scripture because his betrayal of Jesus was similar to when a friend betrayed King David. There was an Old Testament passage which was applicable to the situation of Judas and Jesus. It was a scripture fulfillment, because the scripture applied to that type of situation.
But Judas was a FRIEND of Jesus whom Jesus TRUSTED and whom Jesus picked to be an APOSTLE. Jesus knew from the beginning of Judas change that Judas would betray Him. But the scriptures imply that Jesus was surprised that someone He picked would become a devil.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 17:34:13 GMT -5
Due to the Greek word itself, one cannot presuppose into the text that the word "might", "may" or "should" carried a possiblility of non fulfillment, as the word, "dunamis", means "power," (a) used relatively, denotes "inherent ability, capability, ability to perform anything," (b) used absolutely, denotes (1) "power to work, to carry something into effect" (Source: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament words)
The word dunamis is a word meaning power, ability, etc etc.... and thsi is what Scripture has, the power and ability to fulfil all prohecy.
Young's Literal Translation reads: John 17:12 "when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled."
The King James Version reads: John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
The Analytical Literal Translation reads: John 17:12 "When I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Your name. [Those] whom You have given to Me I guarded, and none of them was destroyed [or, lost] except the son of destruction [or, the one destined to be lost], so that the Scripture should be fulfilled.
Concerning John 17:12, Clarke states: "Thus the scripture is fulfilled"
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 18:00:10 GMT -5
Your right Dan the word in the Greek is plēroō which has a number of meanings. Source: tinyurl.com/yw4ceo
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:04:19 GMT -5
Your right Dan the word in the Greek is plēroō which has a number of meanings. The word there is dunamis... unless I'm mistaken; I just checked it in Vine's but will double check. Thanks for the other word, bro; I may have missed something.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:07:05 GMT -5
Your right Dan the word in the Greek is plēroō which has a number of meanings. Source: tinyurl.com/yw4ceoAccording to the Blue Letter Bible, you're correct
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:08:02 GMT -5
pleroo: Accomplish, Accomplishment [pleroo] Complete, Completion, Completely [pleroo]
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 18:10:19 GMT -5
There is within the meaning of the word both an absolute and a possibility so I guess one could assume either or on that matter. Considering both the Young's and KJV give the possibility while others render the word as an absolute.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:11:39 GMT -5
PARALLEL OR ANALOGOUS SCRIPTURE FULFILLMENTSThese are events found in the New Testament, which correlate with events found in the Old Testament. The scriptures used had an original meaning in the Old, yet are applicable to a situation in the New. Examples would be: - My Son called out of Egypt: Hos 11:1 speaking of Israel in the Old Testament. This is also applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Mat 2:15. - The betrayal of a trusted friend: Psa 41:9, David speaking of his trusted friend and counselor Ahithephel. John 13:18, this is also applied to Jesus and his trusted friend and disciple Judas. There was no prophecy that Judas needed to fulfill. But the Bible does say that Judas fulfilled the scripture, but not that Judas fulfilled prophecy. Judas fulfilled scripture because his betrayal of Jesus was similar to when a friend betrayed King David. There was an Old Testament passage which was applicable to the situation of Judas and Jesus. It was a scripture fulfillment, because the scripture applied to that type of situation. But Judas was a FRIEND of Jesus whom Jesus TRUSTED and whom Jesus picked to be an APOSTLE. Jesus knew from the beginning of Judas change that Judas would betray Him. But the scriptures imply that Jesus was surprised that someone He picked would become a devil. Young's Literal Translation reads: John 17:12 "when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled." The King James Version reads: John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." The Analytical Literal Translation reads: John 17:12 "When I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Your name. [Those] whom You have given to Me I guarded, and none of them was destroyed [or, lost] except the son of destruction [or, the one destined to be lost], so that the Scripture should be fulfilled. "Might Be Fulfilled: pleroo: Accomplish, Accomplishment [pleroo] Complete, Completion, Completely [pleroo] 1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally 1) I abound, I am liberally supplied 2) to render full, i.e. to complete a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim b) to consummate: a number 1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect 2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking) c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise 1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute 2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish 3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:15:26 GMT -5
There is within the meaning of the word both an absolute and a possibility so I guess one could assume either or on that matter. I'm not sure, Bro .... The OT speaks very specifically concerning one who would betray our Lord: Psalm 41:9 "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Zechariah 11:12 "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." What are your thoughts on these, Brother?
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:24:54 GMT -5
Well Dan Judas had to have a free will therefore it was a possibility. I'm not talking about "Open Theism" but whether Judas was saved or not and that he of his own desire chose to betray Christ. Whether this is prophetic in nature or not it does not negate that Judas was in fact saved at one point in time. I agree that Judas made the decision to do what he did.... but what I mean is, do you believe God knew what Judas would do with his free choice and hence wrote it beforehand in the OT as a Messianic Prophecy?
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 18:31:15 GMT -5
Well Dan Judas had to have a free will therefore it was a possibility. I'm not talking about "Open Theism" but whether Judas was saved or not and that he of his own desire chose to betray Christ. Whether this is prophetic in nature or not it does not negate that Judas was in fact saved at one point in time. I agree that Judas made the decision to do what he did.... but what I mean is, do you believe God knew what Judas would do with his free choice and hence wrote it beforehand in the OT as a Messianic Prophecy? I believe God knew the possibility to the extent that it may have been almost absolute. (But that Judas still had free will.)
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:38:58 GMT -5
When I think of prophetic Scriptures in that way, which is an Open Theistic view, I picture a false prophet God.
I know that seems harsh, but I cannot wrap my mind around such a view of God as it's very difficult for me to seek to reconcile what I see Scripture teaching and what I see Open Theism teaching.
For example, if we go back to Jesus and Peter's denial, the Open Theist states Jesus made a good guess while I see a definate Prophecy fulfilled.
Peter had a free will, but Jesus prophesied what he would do, how he would do it, at what time it would take place and did so with exacting 100% precision.
To state it was a guess makes Jesus a $4.00 per minute telephone psychic in my view.
Do you see what I mean, Brother?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 18:41:20 GMT -5
Judas fulfilled scripture, not prophecy. It was an analogous or parallel fulfillment of scripture, not a predicted fulfillment of prophecy.
An example of an analogous or parallel scriptural fulfillment would be "they hated me without a cause". Today I went to Fayetteville State University and the scripture was fulfilled that "they hated me without a cause". That does not mean that that scripture was a prophecy of today, but that today fulfilled that scripture, that is, that scripture was applicable to my situation.
Another would be, "who has believed our report?" This scripture was fulfilled today in my life, but that scripture was not a prophecy of my life.
Hebrew writers used scripture like that. This is very common even in our own culture. We will take a book, like Psalms for example, and say, "This psalms is talking about what I've been going through". All that means is that the scripture is applicable to our situation, that it seems to describe our situation, when the scripture had an original meaning which was not our situation.
There are many of these analogous or parallel scriptural fulfillments in the New Testament. The Hebrew authors took Old Testament scriptures, which were describing Old Testament events, and the New Testament writers applied these scriptures to New Testament events.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:44:46 GMT -5
Judas fulfilled scripture, not prophecy. It was an analogous or parallel fulfillment of scripture, not a predicted fulfillment of prophecy. An example of an analogous or parallel scriptural fulfillment would be "they hated me without a cause". Today I went to Fayetteville State University and the scripture was fulfilled that "they hated me without a cause". That does not mean that that scripture was a prophecy of today, but that today fulfilled that scripture, that is, that scripture was applicable to my situation. Another would be, "who has believed our report?" This scripture was fulfilled today in my life, but that scripture was not a prophecy of my life. Hebrew writers used scripture like that. This is very common even in our own culture. We will take a book, like Psalms for example, and say, "This psalms is talking about what I've been going through". All that means is that the scripture is applicable to our situation, that it seems to describe our situation, when the scripture had an original meaning which was not our situation. There are many of these analogous or parallel scriptural fulfillments in the New Testament. The Hebrew authors took Old Testament scriptures, which were describing Old Testament events, and the New Testament writers applied these scriptures to New Testament events. Judas precisely fulfilled Scripture, and it was the Prophetic Scripture he fulfilled, as there is one Scripture with varying "departments", if you will, such as Prophecy, Poetry, History, Doctrine, etc etc. If we go back to Jesus and Peter's denial, the Open Theist states Jesus made a good guess while I see a definate Prophecy fulfilled. Peter had a free will, but Jesus prophesied what he would do, how he would do it, at what time it would take place and did so with exacting 100% precision. To state it was a guess makes Jesus a $4.00 per minute telephone psychic in my view.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 18:49:40 GMT -5
When I think of prophetic Scriptures in that way, which is an Open Theistic view, I picture a false prophet God. I know that seems harsh, but I cannot wrap my mind around such a view of God as it's very difficult for me to seek to reconcile what I see Scripture teaching and what I see Open Theism teaching. For example, if we go back to Jesus and Peter's denial, the Open Theist states Jesus made a good guess while I see a definate Prophecy fulfilled. Peter had a free will, but Jesus prophesied what he would do, how he would do it, at what time it would take place and did so with exacting 100% precision. To state it was a guess makes Jesus a $4.00 per minute telephone psychic in my view. Do you see what I mean, Brother? I'm going to be frank here, my problem with the Classic theist view is that if God "EXHAUSTIVELY" knows the future than He created Lucifer knowing that he would sin and be an agent of the fall of mankind etc. I have to neglect this view though I believe God does have what we call foreknowledge but I don't believe that He always chooses to use this power as the Classic Theist says. Therefore I hold to an open closed theism.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 18:52:42 GMT -5
When I think of prophetic Scriptures in that way, which is an Open Theistic view, I picture a false prophet God. I know that seems harsh, but I cannot wrap my mind around such a view of God as it's very difficult for me to seek to reconcile what I see Scripture teaching and what I see Open Theism teaching. For example, if we go back to Jesus and Peter's denial, the Open Theist states Jesus made a good guess while I see a definate Prophecy fulfilled. Peter had a free will, but Jesus prophesied what he would do, how he would do it, at what time it would take place and did so with exacting 100% precision. To state it was a guess makes Jesus a $4.00 per minute telephone psychic in my view. Do you see what I mean, Brother? I'm going to be frank here, my problem with the Classic theist view is that if God "EXHAUSTIVELY" knows the future than He created Lucifer for the sole purpose of sin. I have to neglect this view though I believe God does have what we call foreknowledge but I don't believe that He always chooses to use this power as the Classic Theist says. Therefore I hold to an open closed theism. I also have a problem with God creating lucifer who then became satan, if in fact He knew what would happen.... I also have a problem, though, with an Open Theist treating Christ the King as though He were a $4.00 telephone psychic. I'd submit, Matt, that you and I hold to similar views.
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 18:53:53 GMT -5
I apologize I probably shouldn't have used the terms "sole purpose."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 18:57:55 GMT -5
Dan,
A "good guess"?? Who ever said that Peter's denial was a "good guess"? I've never heard an open theist say that.
There are two open theist answers that I know of:
- It was an absolute prophecy in that the Lord Himself orchestrated the event to reveal to Peter's his true character, since the Lord already knew Peter's character. This would be a mixture of an absolute prophecy and an extrapolative prophecy.
- It was a precise calculated prediction (not a guess) based upon God's perfect knowledge of the past and the present. God's knowledge is infinite and superior then ours and He can calculate so many elements to make a precise prediction. It's a mystery sometimes how the future is open yet God makes such precise predictions. This shows God's genius in calculating elements which we simply don't see.
FOUR CATEGORIES OF PROPHECIES:
All prophecies fit into one of these four categories which are perfectly compatible with Open Theism.
1. ABSOLUTE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of events that will inevitably come to pass. This relates to the omnipotence of God to bring about events predetermined by Himself. The matter is completely settled and certain.
Two example would be:
- God will crush the head of Satan:
"And I WILL put enmity between thee and the women, and between thy seed and her seed, and it shall bruise thy head." Gen 3:15
- The end of of the world:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying MY COUNSEL shall stand, and I WILL do all MY PLEASURE... I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:10-11
2. CONDITIONAL PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of contingent events. They relate to the freewill of men. The matter is completely open and contingent.
Two examples of this would be:
- The repentance of Judah:
"Perhaps they will hear and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I purposed to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." Jer 26:3
- Blessings and wrath contingent upon obedience and disobedience:
"At what instance I shall speak concering a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instance I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." Jer 18:7-10
3. EXTRAPOLATIVE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies that are predicted, based upon God's exhaustive knowledge of the past and the present. Looking at the pattern of the past and the circumstances of the present, our Infinite God is able to make accurate and detailed predictions of the future behind our own finite comprehension:
Examples of this type would be:
- The future disobedience of Israel
"For when I shall have brought them into the land which I swore unto their fathers, that flows with milk and honey; an they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouth, of their seed: I KNOW THEIR IMAGINATION which they go about, EVEN NOW, before I have brought them into the land which I swore." Deut 31:20-21
- Peters denial:
Mark 8:31-34, Peters heart was revealed that he greatly feared the cross. He rebuked Jesus for talking about crucification and the Lord rebuked Peter for His cowardice.
Mat 26:34, Jesus knew Peters heart had not changed, and new all the circumstances Peter would face that night, and predicted Peters denial based upon his past pattern, present character, and present circumstances.
4. PARALLEL OR ANALOGOUS SCRIPTURE FULFILLMENTS
These are events found in the New Testament, which correlate with events found in the Old Testament. The scriptures used had an original meaning in the Old, yet are applicable to a situation in the New.
Examples would be:
- My Son called out of Egypt:
Hos 11:1 speaking of Israel in the Old Testament.
This is also applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Mat 2:15.
- The betrayal of a trusted friend:
Psa 41:9, David speaking of his trusted friend and counselor Ahithephel.
John 13:18, this is also applied to Jesus and his trusted friend and disciple Judas.
WHAT PROPHECIES DO NOT PROVE:
- That the future has already happened
- That God already lives in the future
- That God lives outside of time
- That God has determined everything
- That all events are foreknown as certain
WHAT PROPHECIES DO REVEAL:
- That the future is partly settled by God (absolute prophecies)
- That the future is partly open and contingent (conditional prophecies)
- That the future is predictable to the Divine Mind (extrapolative prophecies)
- That the future is repetitive and similar to the past (parallel or analogous prophecies)
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:04:19 GMT -5
Dan, Who ever said that Peter's denial was a "good guess"? I've never heard an open theist say that. There are two open theist answers that I know of: - It was an absolute prophecy in that the Lord Himself orchestrated the event to reveal to Peter's his true character, since the Lord already knew Peter's character. This would be a mixture of an absolute prophecy and an extrapolative prophecy. - It was a precise calculated prediction (not a guess) based upon God's perfect knowledge of the past and the present. God's knowledge is infinite and superior then ours and He can calculate so many elements to make a precise prediction. It's a mystery sometimes how the future is open yet God makes such precise predictions. This shows God's genius in calculating elements which we simply don't see. !- Jesus prophesied (not predicted like a 2 bit psychic) that peter would deny Him 2- He prophesied this fact with absolute accuracy 3- It came to pass with 100% precision
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mattmahar
Full Member
`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 19:05:23 GMT -5
I can accept this on the grounds of foreknowledge but not on the grounds of probability. Also may I add that even though my preference is foreknowledge I do believe that the situation that is foreknown could still be changed or altered due to either free will or principle. And what I mean by principle is if the scriptures give an alternate ending for example Nineveh was to be destroyed in 40 days. But there is a scripture elsewhere that states if such a people repent of their evil the Lord would also repent of the evil He had thought to do to them. (principle.)
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:07:15 GMT -5
I can accept this on the grounds of foreknowledge but not on the grounds of probability. Also may I add that even though my preference is foreknowledge I do believe that the situation that is foreknown could still be changed or altered due to either free will or principle. And what I mean by principle is if the scriptures give an alternate ending for example Nineveh was to be destroyed in 40 days. But there is a scripture else where that states if such a people repent the wrong the Lord had thought to do to them would be repented of. I agree that there can be alternate endings to events, depending on a person's response to either repentance or hardening their hearts, but this is always indicated (such as in Nineveh) yet in Peter's case, Jesus made a precise "You will deny Me" Prophecy. This leads me to believe God's knowledge is so perfect and limitless that He knew Peter's free will choice before Peter chose it; otherwise, Jesus was taking a risk at becoming an instant false prophet.
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