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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 19:09:16 GMT -5
It's impossible for us to know all of the secrets of the Lord, or to explain all of the ways of the Lord. A partly open future with free will may seem hard for some to reconcile with prophecies, but the ways of the Lord are past finding out.
God certainly foreknows all of reality as it is. God foreknows all future possibilities and God foreknows all future certainties. What is contingent and open God knows as such and what is settled and determined God knows as such.
Since God perfectly knew Peter's character, and since God perfectly knew the circumstances Peter would face, Jesus was able to prophecy of his denial. Not because it was unavoidable, or because God was outside of time, or because God was already in the future, but because God perfectly knew Peter and because God perfectly knew his circumstances.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:11:32 GMT -5
Since God perfectly knew Peter's character, and since God perfectly knew the circumstances Peter would face, Jesus was able to prophecy of his denial. Not because it was unavoidable, or because God was outside of time, or because God was already in the future, but because God perfectly knew Peter and because God perfectly knew his circumstances. So at the end of the day, you believe Jesus guessed?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 19:18:29 GMT -5
Huh?
Jesus didn't guess what Peter's character was. Jesus knew what Peter's character was.
Jesus didn't guess what Peter's circumstances was. Jesus knew what Peter's circumstances was.
There was no guessing involved. God perfectly knew these things and therefore could make a perfectly precise and accurate prediction or prophecy.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:19:02 GMT -5
It's impossible for us to know all of the secrets of the Lord, or to explain all of the ways of the Lord. A partly open future with free will may seem hard for some to reconcile with prophecies, but the ways of the Lord are past finding out. God certainly foreknows all of reality as it is. God foreknows all future possibilities and God foreknows all future certainties. What is contingent and open God knows as such and what is settled and determined God knows as such. Since God perfectly knew Peter's character, and since God perfectly knew the circumstances Peter would face, Jesus was able to prophecy of his denial. Not because it was unavoidable, or because God was outside of time, or because God was already in the future, but because God perfectly knew Peter and because God perfectly knew his circumstances. Prophecy is not based on knowing another's character, Jesse; it's based on the Inspiration of the Spirit of God, rather than on gathering specific details in order to prophesy. Such a concept that you're sharing makes, in my view, Jesus a psychic needing to know "inside information" in order to Prophecy accurately.... as the Son of Man, He did know Peter, but His prophecy of Peter's denial was not based on this, as Prophecy is a Gift of the Spirit, not a reading of one's character. Jesus did not need to know anything in order to prophecy as Prophecy is a Gift of the Spirit apart from the necessity of needing to know another's chatacter in order to "accurately prophesy". Where is your view taught in Scripture? I encourage you to read 1 Corinthians12-14 on the Gift of Prophecy.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 19:20:58 GMT -5
According to Deut 31:20-21, did God prophecy of Israels future rebellion because he simply knew it intuitively, or because he perfectly knew their present character?
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:22:33 GMT -5
According to Deut 31:20-21, did God prophecy of Israels future rebellion because he simply knew it intuitively, or because he perfectly knew their present character? According to three entire chapters, 1 Corinthians 12-14, is the Gift of Prophecy contingent upon knowing one's character or is it a Gift of the Spirit not contingent upon man's character in order to "accurately prophesy"?
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 19:23:46 GMT -5
I understand where Jesse is coming from he is saying since "God" is omniscience it is beyond probability in regards to prophecy which couldn't be considered as guessing. In actuality what the "Open Theist" calls probability can be summed up in foreknowing (foreknowledge.) due to specifically known information (facts).
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:28:53 GMT -5
I understand where Jesse is coming from he is saying since "God" is omniscience it is beyond probability in regards to prophecy which couldn't be considered as guessing. In actuality what the "Open Theist" calls probability can be summed up in foreknowing (foreknowledge.) due to specifically known information (facts). BNonetheless, to teach that the Prophecy of Jesus conerning Peter was contingent upon Peter's character is to turn Jesus' Prophecy into a Guess that " turned into" an accurate Prophecy, as it was, according to Open Theism, contingent upon man's character. I don't buy that.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 19:33:47 GMT -5
I'm not in agreement with this Open Theist view but it is in fact plausible.
When I look at foreknowledge as it relates to God it is an absolute view of future events due to God actually seeing them and not due to probability.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:37:14 GMT -5
I'm not in agreement with this Open Theist view but it is in fact plausible It can't be possible on the basis that it was not a Prophecy in the Open Theist's mind, but a guess (primary) that turned into (secondary) a Prophecy. Hence, in Open Theism, Jesus primarily guessed which then secondarily turned into a prophecy. Scripture testifies that it was a primary Prophecy with precise 100% accuracy.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 19:38:43 GMT -5
I'm not in agreement with this Open Theist view but it is in fact plausible It can't be possible on the basis that it was not a Prophecy in the Open Theist's mind, but a guess (primary) that turned into (secondary) a Prophecy. Hence, in Open Theism, Jesus primarily guessed which then secondarily turned into a prophecy. How is it a guess with an omniscient God?
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:40:51 GMT -5
It can't be possible on the basis that it was not a Prophecy in the Open Theist's mind, but a guess (primary) that turned into (secondary) a Prophecy. Hence, in Open Theism, Jesus primarily guessed which then secondarily turned into a prophecy. How is it a guess with an omniscient God? Like the Mormons saying they believe in the Trinity, so Open Theism claims to believe in Omniscience... however, the meanings are twisted. Peter's denial was not a Prophecy in the Open Theist's mind, but a guess (primary) that turned into (secondary) a Prophecy. Hence, in Open Theism, Jesus primarily guessed which then secondarily turned into a prophecy.
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mattmahar
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`Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.' John 5:14
Posts: 151
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Post by mattmahar on Mar 10, 2008 19:43:47 GMT -5
Everything you have been saying is merely conjecture.
It can't be a guess with an omniscient God. He knows the laws of probability beyond our ability to know how much He even knows these laws. With all honesty just to think about the omniscience of God is mind boggling in itself. But even what I say is conjecture for that matter.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 19:48:11 GMT -5
Perhaps
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 10, 2008 20:48:33 GMT -5
If God says something will happen, He will make sure that it will come to pass. God DID know Peter's heart perfectly and knew with the right conditions/circumstances that he would deny Jesus three times. Prophecy, in the open view, is not about God simply looking at this time line of the future and seeing something happen. In the open view, it is about His knowledge of everything that can possibly be known and His power to brings things to pass that He says will happen. The open view doesn't seem to have anything to do with guessing in my understanding of it...
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Post by joem on Mar 11, 2008 6:43:46 GMT -5
If God says something will happen, He will make sure that it will come to pass. God DID know Peter's heart perfectly and knew with the right conditions/circumstances that he would deny Jesus three times. Prophecy, in the open view, is not about God simply looking at this time line of the future and seeing something happen. In the open view, it is about His knowledge of everything that can possibly be known and His power to brings things to pass that He says will happen. The open view doesn't seem to have anything to do with guessing in my understanding of it... Exactly. It has been said that this event was brought about by Jesus in part (when He forbade Peter to fight) and was the means that God used to expose Peters heart and to humble him for the work that lie ahead. God worked in conjunction with his free will to accomplish this, which demonstrates greater genius than just forcing man to act a certain way. Dan, Wow. You just took the stance of an open theist to deny open theism. Classical theism says that God has to know the future exhaustively in order for prophesies to be accurate. If Jesus didn't need to know anything (which of course He did) to bring a precise prophecy to pass, then your entire premise for rejecting the open view has been demolished. It is the Classical view that says God needs to be "a psychic needing to know "inside information" in order to Prophecy accurately" not the open view. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 11, 2008 9:52:30 GMT -5
That's a good point Joe. It is in the classic view that God needs to magically look into the future like a psychic in order to make prophecies. In open theism, God's prophecies require unfathomable genius (extrapolative prophecies). Other prophecies reflect the power of His omnipotence, His ability to bring things to pass by His own power (absolute prophecies). As Kerrigan pointed out, many prophecies reflect God's omnipotence not so much His foreknowledge. Many prophecies are simply God foretelling what He Himself will bring to pass.
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