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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 20:15:21 GMT -5
DEAD IN SINS
A state of spiritual deadness is a state of relational separation from God because of personal moral disobedience.
“For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died [morally and spiritually, since Paul was still physically alive]” Rom. 7:9
“But your iniquities [not Adam’s] have separated between you and your God [brought spiritual death], and your sins [not Adam’s] have hid His face from you [separation]” Isa. 59:2
“For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me [morally and spiritually killed me]” Rom. 7:11
“But sin... working [moral and spiritual] death in me...” Rom. 7:13
“For to be carnally minded is [moral and spiritual] death…” Rom. 8:6
“Christ…died for all, then all were dead [morally and spiritually].” 2 Cor. 5:14
“And you who were dead [morally and spiritually] in trespasses and sins.” Eph. 2:1, Eph. 2:5
“... alienated and enemies [relationally]... by wicked works” Col. 1:21
"And you, being dead [morally and spiritually, since they were still physically alive] in your sins [not Adam’s sin] . . .” Col. 2:13
“But she that lives in pleasure is dead [morally and spiritually] while she [physically] lives.” 1 Tim. 5:6
“…and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death [moral and spiritual]. Jas. 1:14-15
“…thou hast a name that thou liveth, and art dead [morally and spiritually].” Rev. 3:1
NO LONGER DEAD IN SINS
“…He that…believeth…is passed from [moral and spiritual] death unto life [relationship].” Jn. 5:24
“…for this my son was dead [morally and spiritually] and is alive [relationship] again.” Lk. 15:24, Lk. 15:32
"Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead [moral and spiritual], and Christ shall give thee light." Eph. 5:14
“…yield yourselves unto God, as those that are [relationally] alive from the dead [moral and spiritual].” Rom. 6:13
“And you, being [morally and spiritually] dead in your sins… hath he made [relationally] alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.” Col. 2:13
“We know that we have passed from [moral and spiritual] death unto life [relationship].” 1 Jn. 3:14
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 20:46:40 GMT -5
The Calvinist will say that "dead in sins" means that sinners don't have a free will. But this doesn't line up with the prodigal son. The Father said that the Son was dead in his sins (Lk 15:32). But that didn't mean that the son couldn't return home. It simply meant that the son didn't have a relationship with the Father, their relationship was broken or dead.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 10, 2008 20:53:22 GMT -5
Yeah and to be consistent, those who are alive now (Christians) should have no ability to sin. But, we all know that is not true...
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 21:03:15 GMT -5
Dead in sins does not mean we do not have free choice, but at the same time, the sinner cannot "will" himself saved.
He must first be convicted by the Holy Spirit to repent and place his faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation.
This comes by his hearing the Gospel.
Without knowing the Gospel, his free will means nothing.
Let's not place undue emphasis on free will.
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Post by sean on Mar 10, 2008 21:50:49 GMT -5
actually you're choice's seem to be limited to pigeon hole people. Did you intend it to be that way? I know you know more about Calvinism and what they teach. And since you do you think you would provide an option that aligns with what they believe. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can see through you're polls. This isn't the first time you done one like this.
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Post by sean on Mar 10, 2008 21:51:57 GMT -5
the only being that has an absolutely "free" will is God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:00:03 GMT -5
Calvinists always seem to confuse free will with omnipotence. I've heard Calvinists argue, "Free will is the ability to do whatever you want. We can't do whatever we want, therefore we don't have free will". But this is not free will. Free will is not the ability to do whatever you want, free will is the ability do will whatever you want.
For example, free will is the omnipotent power to be super man. Free will does not give me the ability to fly to the moon. But free will gives me the ability to want to.
Wanting and doing is different. Free will is the ability to want anything. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything.
Both God and men have free will. But only God has omnipotence.
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Post by sean on Mar 10, 2008 22:05:00 GMT -5
Calvinists always seem to confuse free will with omnipotence. I've heard Calvinists argue, "Free will is the ability to do whatever you want. We can't do whatever we want, therefore we don't have free will". But this is not free will. Free will is not the ability to do whatever you want, free will is the ability do will whatever you want. For example, free will is the omnipotent power to be super man. Free will does not give me the ability to fly to the moon. But free will gives me the ability to want to. Wanting and doing is different. Free will is the ability to want anything. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything. Both God and men have free will. But only God has omnipotence. you seem to have skipped this.... actually you're choice's seem to be limited to pigeon hole people. Did you intend it to be that way? I know you know more about Calvinism and what they teach. And since you do you think you would provide an option that aligns with what they believe. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can see through you're polls. This isn't the first time you done one like this.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:08:38 GMT -5
Sean,
What other option would you have wished? Calvinists have repeatedly told me that "dead in sins" means that sinners do not have the ability to repent or to obey God, that sinners don't have a free will. That is the position Calvinists have told me, do you believe differently?
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 22:12:52 GMT -5
Sean, What other option would you have wished? Calvinists have repeatedly told me that "dead in sins" means that sinners do not have the ability to repent or to obey God, that sinners don't have a free will. That is the position Calvinists have told me, do you believe differently? If free will overrides God's Will, then God's Will is in no wise completely free. If God's Will overrides man's will, then man's will is in no wise completely free. Which Will are you trusting in, Jesse? Your's? God's?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:31:10 GMT -5
God's Will:
Plan A. Nobody ever sins (men use their free will not to sin) Plan B. Those who sin repent and come to Jesus (men use their free will to come to Jesus) Plan C. Those who refuse to repent and come to Jesus go to hell
In this regard, God's will is ALWAYS done. But God's primary will is not always done.
Yet God's will is not always done on earth as Matt 6:10 and Lk 11:2 implies. God's will is not that any should perish, yet many do perish.
But we also must distinguish between the different governments of God:
1. Natural Government: In this government God has total and complete control over the physical or material universe. The stars, the planets, the atoms, DNA, weather, are all perfectly and completely and totally controlled by the will of God. This government is ruled by cause and effect.
2. Animal Government: In this government God has complete and total control over the animal kingdom. Every animal acts and behaves exactly how God wants them to. They never do anything that is not God's will. This government is ruled by preprogrammed instinct.
3. Providential Government: In this government God steers, guides, and controls the course of history in regards to nations, kingdoms, and empires. God completely and totally controls rulers and kings. God governs through influence and response sometimes but also through cause and effect by taking away man's free will and using man as an instrument or a puppet.
4. Moral Government: in this government God tries to govern man's moral actions. God has granted man a free will so that man is capable of moral character. God influences, enlightens, calls, commandments, all to help direct and guide man's free will. This government is ruled by influence and response, but man has the power to resist so that God's will is not always done.
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Post by sean on Mar 10, 2008 22:38:11 GMT -5
Sean, What other option would you have wished? Calvinists have repeatedly told me that "dead in sins" means that sinners do not have the ability to repent or to obey God, that sinners don't have a free will. That is the position Calvinists have told me, do you believe differently? what do you mean Calvinist have told you... you claimed to have been one at one time. Surely as much as you come against Calvinist you would have read what they believe about free-will. You have done this right? You did do this when you were a Calvinist right?
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Post by sean on Mar 10, 2008 22:39:22 GMT -5
Sean, What other option would you have wished? Calvinists have repeatedly told me that "dead in sins" means that sinners do not have the ability to repent or to obey God, that sinners don't have a free will. That is the position Calvinists have told me, do you believe differently? If free will overrides God's Will, then God's Will is in no wise completely free. If God's Will overrides man's will, then man's will is in no wise completely free. Very true... which is it Jesse. Please, only a direct answer. Please chose one of the above. Who's will overides who's?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:41:03 GMT -5
Calvinists say that sinners are only "free to sin" but are not free to obey unless they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit since freedom to obey was lost because of Adam.
Augustine said that God took our free will away to punish us for Adam's sin.
Edwards said that we are necessitated by the strongest motive.
And MacArthur says that we are only free to "pick your poison" that is, only free to sin, but are not free to obey.
Do you agree with Augustine or with Edwards? MacArthur seems to agree with Augustine.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:42:43 GMT -5
God's will is COMPLETELY free. God can will what He wants.
Man's will is COMPLETELY free. Man can want whatever he wants.
But free will is not omnipotence. Only God can DO whatever he wants. But man can only "want" or "will" since his will is free.
Man's will is free and can therefore "will" to go to the moon. But man does not have the ability to fly to the moon. That doesn't mean that man's will is not free. It simply means that man cannot "do" whatever he wants, though he can "want" whatever he wants.
-------------------------------------------------------
God wills that all men should voluntary repent. Men are not willing to repent. Therefore God's will is left undone while man's will is done. That is why God is grieved and disappointed in the Bible.
Nevertheless it was God's will that man have a free will to begin with. So God's will is done. God's will is that man should choose for himself. Man chooses for himself, therefore God's will is done.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 22:44:54 GMT -5
God wills that all men should voluntary repent. Men are not willing to repent. Therefore God's will is left undone while man's will is done. That is why God is grieved and disappointed in the Bible. Nevertheless it was God's will that man have a free will to begin with. So God's will is done. God's will is that man should choose for himself. Man chooses for himself, therefore God's will is done. What if a man decides he wants to shoot me today; can God stop him and override his free choice to kill me?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:46:31 GMT -5
God can stop a man from "doing" anything. Free will is not the power to do, free will is the power to want. Doing belongs to the body. Willing belongs to the will.
A man can "want" to shoot you. And God allows him to want this. But if God didn't want them to shoot you, can can stop the man from "doing" it even though the man may still "want" to do it.
A paralyzed man may want to shoot you. But he cannot do it because doing belongs to the body. But wanting belongs to the will.
God could paralyze someone who wants to shoot you. By doing this God does not take away their free will, which is the ability to want. But God takes away their ability to perform or their ability to do by damaging their body.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 22:48:58 GMT -5
God can stop a man from "doing" anything. Free will is not the power to do, free will is the power to want. A man can "want" to shoot you. And God allows him to want this. But if God didn't want them to shoot you, can can stop the man from "doing" it even though the man may still "want" to do it. This is incorrect. The moment I was saved God removed my will to harm, hate, lie, cheat, steal, etc etc. I no longer had a "free will" to hate, lie, cheat, steal etc etc at the moment of my conversion; I was instantly set free, not only from the desire for evil, but from the will to do evil.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 22:56:37 GMT -5
Dan,
God brings us, through the influence of the Holy Spirit, to a place of complete and total surrender unto the Lord. So our hearts are changed, our will is changed, but not by force but through influence. God breaks us.
But if God took away your will to sin, you wouldn't ever sin again. Have you sinned since being converted? If so, God did not take away your free will.
Just as a sinner can submit, so also a Christian can rebel, because they both have free will. A sinners is dead in sin yet can still repent and obey. And a Christian is dead to sin yet can still rebel and disobey.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 23:01:09 GMT -5
Dan, God brings us, through the influence of the Holy Spirit, to a place of complete and total surrender unto the Lord. So our hearts are changed, our will is changed, but not by force but through influence. God breaks us. But if God took away your will to sin, you wouldn't ever sin again. Have you sinned since being converted? If so, God did not take away your free will. Just as a sinner can submit, so also a Christian can rebel, because they both have free will. I could ask a similar question: You've admitted to sinning since conversion (I have also as have all of us!); does this mean your Conversion was a false Conversion? Of course not. In the same way, when one is under the Will of God, his will is no longer his own...unless he removes himself from the Will of God to his own will; One Body has one Head, Jesus Christ; our will is theologically present, but only practically present if we choose to violate the Will of God, whereby we then come under the bondage of our own will. Salvation is not simply a theological concept, Jesse; it's a adical transformation of nature. I can only speak for myself concenring my own Salvation experience; I'll never forget the date or time. When I was saved the Spirit of God fell on me powerfully in front of criminals in a maximum security jail and I was instantly deleivered from not only the desire to do evil, but the will to do evil was gone as well; my immediate response to God was to do His Will, as my own will had died that day. For me to even consider that I had a "free will" to do evil at my Conversion is an alien concept to me... my "free will" was no longer free; I became a bondslave to Jesus Christ.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 23:03:41 GMT -5
Salvation doesn't change your constitution. Salvation changes your character. It changes your will.
When I was a sinner I wanted to sin. But when I got saved I never wanted to sin again. It was my "want" that changed. And this change didn't happen by omnipotent force, but by loving influence.
I became a slave of righteousness by choice. The Bible says that we "yield" ourselves unto God to be instruments of righteousness. Just as we were voluntarily slaves of sin, after conversion we become voluntary slaves of righteousness. By choice we used to serve sin, now by choice we serve God.
As converted Christians we still have the ability to "removes himself from the Will of God" because we never lost the ability of choice. But as Christians we choose to submit unto God, we choose to say "not my will but yours be done" so that we die to ourselves.
Regeneration doesn't give us a free will so that we are capable of repenting. And Conversion doesn't take away our free will (ability to choose). Rather, at conversion or regeneration we voluntarily submit and surrender ourselves unto the Lord, we finally start using our free will rightly, we start using our free will to obey God, we use our ability of choice to choose to obey.
Sinners have a free will and they use it to rebel and disobey. Christians have a free will and they use it to submit and obey.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 23:08:08 GMT -5
Salvation doesn't change your constitution. Salvation changes your character. It changes your will. When I was a sinner I wanted to sin. But when I got saved I never wanted to sin again. It was my "want" that changed. And this change didn't happen by omnipotent force, but by loving influence. I became a slave of righteousness by choice. The Bible says that we "yield" ourselves unto God to be instruments of righteousness. Just as we were voluntarily slaves of sin, after conversion we become voluntary slaves of righteousness. By choice we used to serve sin, now by choice we serve God. That's the whole point; free will is always, without exception, carried out by the influence of desire; remove the desire and the will is dead, so to speak. Theologically, our will can do whatever it wants to; practically, as seen in the lives of millions of Believers around the world, this is not the case. Why? True Conversion submits to the Will of God, not the "free" will of man. Free will, once you come to the Cross, is now a slave of jesus Christ, as is every aspect of our lives. If our will is not alive unto God and dead to the world, then it's dead to God and alive to the world. Free will is a theological concept which is not Biblically meant to be practically lived out apart from the Will of God.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 23:12:16 GMT -5
Sinners use their free will to obey the flesh and serve themselves. Christians use their free will to obey the Spirit and serve the Lord.
Sinners use their free will to please themselves. Christians use their free will to please God.
Sinners use their free will to rebel and disobey. Christians use their free will to submit and obey.
"Free will" is nothing more then the ability to choose to obey God or disobey God, it is the faculty that gives you the ability to make a choice or the contrary choice.
Both sinners and saints have the constitutional faculty of free will, yet they use it entirely differently. Sinners use this faculty to serve sin and thereby be slaves of sin. Christians use this faculty to serve righteousness and thereby be slaves of righteousness.
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 23:16:20 GMT -5
Our wills are not completely free prior to conversion (due to not only "wanting" sin but being in bondage to it) and post conversion (due to being completely bound to new desires due to a new nature).
Don't get me wrong; I believein a free will; however, I don't believe it's some kind of free entity on it's own apart from not only desire, but bondage, either to the Will of God or the will of the flesh.
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Post by frankf on Mar 10, 2008 23:18:56 GMT -5
Calvinists say that sinners are only "free to sin" but are not free to obey unless they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit since freedom to obey was lost because of Adam. Augustine said that God took our free will away to punish us for Adam's sin. Edwards said that we are necessitated by the strongest motive. And MacArthur says that we are only free to "pick your poison" that is, only free to sin, but are not free to obey. Do you agree with Augustine or with Edwards? MacArthur seems to agree with Augustine. Time and time again, you oversimplify the arguments of Augustine in order to appeal to your own viewpoints. It's fine if you disagree with his theology, but don't misrepresent him in the process of "proving" your point. Augustine never denied the existance of man's free will. If you can cut and paste a random quote that seems to suggest that Augustine denies the free-will of man... that's fine. But I make a counter-suggestion.... Read an ENTIRE treatise by Augustine before drawing a conclusion. I might suggest starting with "On Grace and Free Will." It's readily available online. It's fairly lenghthy, but at about 25-30 pages it's certainly not as daunting as Finney's Systematic Thelogy. You've suggested elsewhere on these boards that Augustine once held to the idea that man possessed free-will but later abandoned that teaching in favor of heresy. But "On Grace and Free Will" was written three or perhaps four years before his death and well after much of the Pelagian controversy. You may not agree with everything that Augustine has to say in that particular document, but you will certainly be forced to modify many of your comments regarding his teachings.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 23:22:45 GMT -5
Augustine said in his early years that man had a free will.
But in his later years he said that man was only "free to sin" and that free will was taken away as a punishment for Adam's sin.
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Post by frankf on Mar 10, 2008 23:37:54 GMT -5
Augustine said in his early years that man had a free will. But in his later years he said that man was only "free to sin" and that free will was taken away as a punishment for Adam's sin. I would redirect you to my last post regarding Augustine's "early" and "later" years, but instead I will paste passages from "On Grace and Free Will" which was written three to four years prior to his death (after much of the Pelagian controversy). " Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." "What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means "the happy man," of whom the Psalmist says that "his will has been the law of the Lord"? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God? Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is..." (Augustine would make many on these boards very proud as he lists dozens of Scriptures to support the idea of free-will). Again... These are examples of "later" writings from Augustine written in approximately 427. (His death was in approximately 430).
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Post by loonylirette on Mar 10, 2008 23:44:10 GMT -5
After reading this by Brother frank, it does appear that you misrepresent others' views, Brother Jesse.
I'm curious as to whether you quote Augustine etc etc from what you yourself have read as entire documents or do you get your quotes online from others?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 10, 2008 23:54:14 GMT -5
I agree with Augustine sometimes and I disagree with Augustine sometimes because he contradicted Himself.
I DISAGREE WITH AUGUSTINE
Here is a section from Dr. Wiggers book on Augustinian and Pelagianism. Augustine taught during the Pelagian debate, that freewill was taken away as a punishment for Adam's sin, that necessity to sin (inability to not sin) is a punishment for Adam's sin :
"To the Pelagian doctrine of man's freewill, the Augustinian was diametrically opposed. According to Augustine, original sin, was a punishment, consisted peculiarly in the inability to will and to do good. Consequently, the very assertion of original sin, in his sense, was at once a denial of man's freewill.
'True freedom (vera libertas) would not have perished, if the will had remained good. But as the will has sinned, the hard necessity of having sin, follows the sinner, until the whole infirmity be healed, and so great a liberty be received as that of a voluntary and happy necessity of living well and sinning no more' De Perf. just. Hom. 4.
And a little before 'By the freedom of the will, it came to pass, that man should have sin; but now, the penalty vitiosity that ensued from liberty, has produced the necessity. For as the will has been subjugated by the corruption into which it fell, freedom has been wanting to nature.' ib. 'By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God' Ep. 217. c. 5
"Man was so created with freewill, as not to sin if he willed not to, but not so, that if he willed, he could sin with impunity. What wonder then, if by transgressing, i.e., by subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right?' Op. Imp. VI. 12.
"There is is a necessary sin, from which man has not the freedom to refrain, which is not only sin, but is the punishment of sin." VI. 59.
"Since that great freedom" (to be able to abstain from sin) "has been lost, the weakness remains which must be added by greater gifts" De Cor. et Gr. 12.
"The freedom to abstain from sin, has been lost as a punishment of sin" Op. Imp. 1. 104.
'Human nature sinned differently when it still had the freedom to abstain from sin, from what is does not since that freedom is lost, when it needs the aid of a liberator. That was only sin; this is also the punishment of sin.' V. 28.
"By the punishment of sin, each one sins against his will (invitus).' IV. 100."
Quoted from "An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From The Original Sources" by Dr Wiggers, 1840 Edition, pages 128-129
Dr Wiggers went on to say, "The Freedom which Augustine allows to man, after the fall, is a freedom to do evil, and therefore no longer freedom.... When maintaining the freedom of the will, Augustine often hides himself behinds words, because he confounds the various meanings of the word freedom, which Julian very properly distinguishes... we see that AUgustine held to a happy bondage of the will to righteousness, as well as a servile bondage to sin..."
Quoted from "An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism From The Original Sources" by Dr Wiggers, 1840 Edition, pages 131
I AGREE WITH AUGUSTINE
"Whatever may determine the will, if it cannot be resisted, is complied with without sin; but if one can resist it, let him not comply with it and it will not be sin." Augustine
"In all laws, warnings, rewards, punishments, etc. there is no justice, if the will is not the cause of sin." Augustine
"Their fulfillment would not have been commanded, if our will ha nothing to do in it" Augustine
“The beginning of our salvation flows from the merciful God; but it is in our power to consent to his saving inspiration.” Augustine
“The religious mind… confesses… and maintains… that we do by our free will whatsoever we know and feel to be done by us only because we will it.” Augustine
“We [Christians]…assert the liberty of the will, whereby our actions are rendered either moral or immoral, and keep it free from every bond of necessity, on account of the righteous judgment of God.” Augustine
“…we sin voluntarily and not by necessity.” Augustine
"God does not demand impossibilities.” Augustine
"If there be no free will, there is nothing to be saved" Augustine
“They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come.” Augustine
Prosper, a disciple of Augustine, said that those who “perish” do so because of “their voluntary iniquity.”
Prosper also said, “By no means would there be a day of judgment, if men sinned by the will or decree of God."
Felgentius, another disciple of Augustine, said, “Justice could not be said to be just if it did not find, but made man an offender. And the injustice would be still greater, if God, after having predestined a man to ruin when he stood, inflicted punishment upon him after his fall.”
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