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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 3, 2008 13:55:09 GMT -5
I didn't lie about you brother. I just used the wrong word. Still you shouldn't be grieved at God's plan either! Why would anyone be grieved at God's will?! That doesn't make any sense! Amen, glad you are at peace brother. Why would you pray though? Do you assume that the future is full of open possibilities? Hasn't God already determined whether I will become a Calvinist or not? if so, your prayers are worthless brother. Oh, the FOLLY of believing in a Calvinist God! No one said that any of us deserve it. That's not the point. The point is that God DOESN'T play favorites! He doesn't choose to reveal Himself to some and withhold Himself from others. He loves ALL of His creation EQUALLY! That true. But the question is who does He give Grace to? Those who CHOOSE to respond to His drawing and CHOOSE to respond to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Why would you be grieved at my heart? Didn't God make me this way or cause me to be this way? I can't control what I do! Isn't that your view of God's Sovereignty? Call it "mad", call it "grieved", you are still fighting God's Will. You have no reason to have any kind of negative emotion towards anything Abraham. The God of Calvinism causes everything and therefore anytime you are angry or grieved, you are fighting against God! Amen! The question then becomes, "Who are the elect?" Your answer and my answer are polar opposites. You say that God arbitrarily picks and chooses, I say God influences man to make the right choice, but leaves it up to man whether he wants to be a part of the elect or not. Can you say STRAW MAN?! Who has exalted free will? It is a gift from God. I exalt Almighty God who was loving enough to give me free will. You're right, it's all about Him! But are you worshiping Him freely or is He making you worship Him? I CHOOSE to abide in Christ, not that I may bring Glory to myself, but that Christ may receive ALL THE GLORY! I am just an unprofitable servant doing my Master's Bidding. Who are you to come against the Elect of God? Am I so foolish to mock a false God? I don't think so. I think God takes pleasure in the mocking of idols. See straw man above. GOD has Sovereignly decreed to give you free will. Is God powerful enough to choose to do so? I pray because I know God hears my prayers and there is a possibility that God will answer my prayers. Prayers to a Calvinist God mean nothing. God has already chosen what to do. I pray for people who I think will listen to God when He attempts to influence them into truth. I think you are one of them Abraham... Ditto brother. What do you know? Another Straw man! Someone call the fire department! We might have a forest fire here in a minute! God CAN override someone's free will if He wants, but He rarely ever does so...especially when it comes to salvation. But, YES, you do determine how you respond to Truth...whether in submission to it or rejection of it... Well, at least my God (the one of the Bible) hears my prayers. At least my God isn't frozen in "timelessness." Ok, we will need the Coast Guard to come in and help now! STRAW MAN! STRAW MAN! As I said, YES, you determine if you respond to truth in the right way or not. BUT, God determines how much influence He will exert over you with the truth. I have "no fear or reverence towards God" because I did an April Fool's joke? That's just ridiculous. When it comes to my heart, you know NOTHING about me Abraham. You are making a POOR JUDGMENT of someone brother and all over a simply JOKE. You need to lighten up. More importantly, you need to repent. Go read Matthew 7, because you have broken it. You tell me that I have no reverence or fear towards God and then you do the very thing you have accused me of. That's called hypocrisy. Take the log out of your own eye! Maybe you aren't one of the elect brother. Better sit around and see if God makes you repent. You never know, your hypocrisy might show that you were never saved in the first place
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 3, 2008 14:00:04 GMT -5
Welcome Logic! Yeah, I know what you mean about the funeral brother...
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Post by abraham on Apr 3, 2008 14:11:31 GMT -5
As God has ordained the end, He has also ordained the means. God saves men from lies through the intercessions from His spirit (in his saints) and the proclamation of His word by His Spirit (in his saints). I have spoken to you about this before. Are you still dull of hearing? Is heart still hardened to what God declares plainly in Isaiah, John, Romans, Ephesians, and all throughout the Bible. As I stated in my letter to you, I don't want you to become a Calvinist. My desire and prayer for you is that you might have a revelation of the mercy and sovereign grace of God. I desire that you exalt God's freewill power and not your freewill power as why the reason why sinners are saved from sin and death.
Even if you don't believe that God ordains all things to come to pass, the belief that He know everything that is going to come to pass still means that what He knows is as certain to come to pass just as if He ordained it. Therefore, you should be a full on open-theist by now if you believe that your will determines the end rather then God decreeing or simply knowing the means as well as the end.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 3, 2008 14:15:34 GMT -5
As God has ordained the end, he has also ordained the means. I God saves men from lies through the intercessions from His spirit and the proclamation of His word by His Spirit. I have spoken to you about this before. Are you still dull of hearing? I heart still hardened to What God declares plainly in Isaiah, John, Romans, Ephesians, and all throughout the Bible. If I am, you are insulting God. This is the way God made me. I can't change myself! God has to do it! Are you dull of hearing? Have you not read the plain teaching of the WHOLE BIBLE. Why don't you start with these verses: T-Total Depravity/Total Inability/Original Sin Scriptures- Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21; Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Job 31:18; Psalm 22:6, 10; Psalm 51:5, 7-8; Psalm 58:3; Isaiah 7:15-16; Isaiah 55:6-7; Isaiah 64:6; Jeremiah 3:25; Ezekiel 18; Joel 2:19; Matthew 3:7; Matthew 7:11; Matthew 18:3; Matthew 19:13-15; Matthew 22:2-10; Matthew 22:18; Matthew 23:13-17, 19, 23-29, 33; Mark 4:12; Mark 6:6; Luke 1:15; John 9:39-41; John 12:32; John 17:3; Acts 7:51-52; Acts 13:9-10; Acts 17:26-27, 30-31; Romans 1:3; Romans 2:14; Romans 3:9-18; Romans 5:12-21; Romans 6:16; Romans 7:9, 14; Romans 9:11; 1 Corinthians 3:1; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; Galatians 2:14-15; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13; Hebrews 2:14, 17-18; Hebrews 4:15; James 4:8-10; 1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 7 U-Unconditional Election Scriptures- Deuteronomy 10:17; Job 34:19; Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Ezekiel 33:11; Matthew 22:2-10; Matthew 23:37; Luke 15:7, 10; John 6:44-46; Acts 2:11; Acts 2:39; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:5-11; Galatians 2:6; Ephesians 1:3-12; Ephesians 6:7-9; 1 Timothy 2:1,3-4; Hebrews 5:9; James 2:9; James 3:17; 1 Peter 1:17; 2 Peter 3:9; L-Limited Atonement Scriptures- Isaiah 53:5-6; John 1:29; John 3:16-17; Romans 5:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 1 Timothy 4:10; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 10:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:14 I-Irresistible Grace Scriptures- Genesis 4:6-7; Genesis 6:3; Matthew 22:2-10; Matthew 23:37; John 1:9; John 6:37, 44-46, 65; John 12:32; John 16:7-11; Acts 2:37; Acts 7:51, 54, 57; Acts 11:18; Acts 13:46, 48; Acts 26:18-20; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Philippians 1:29; Philippians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; Hebrews 2:3; Revelation 22:17 P-Perseverance of the Saints Scriptures- Psalm 9:10; Ezekiel 3:20-21; Ezekiel 18:18-31; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; Matthew 24:48-51; Matthew 25:1-13; Mark 4:16-19; Mark 13:13; John 6:66; Acts 1:24-25; Acts 11:23; Acts 13:43; Acts 14:22; Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:5-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Galatians 5:4-9; Galatians 6:7-9; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 1:5,6; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:15; 2 Timothy 1:12, 14-15; 2 Timothy 2:3-5, 12, 17-18; 2 Timothy 4:9-10; Hebrews 2:1; Hebrews 3:6, 8-15, 18-19; Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14; Hebrews 6:1, 8, 11-12, 15; Hebrews 10:23, 26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:14-15, 25; James 1:13-15; James 5:19-20; 2 Peter 1:9; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Revelation 2:4-7, 10-11, 17, 25-26; Revelation 3:2-5, 10-12, 16, 19, 20
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Post by abraham on Apr 3, 2008 14:29:17 GMT -5
I already have this verse list saved in my computer. I once used a lot of these scriptures to try to disprove God's Sovereign Grace. Thank you for sending me the list. I know that you desire good for me. That was kind of funny the way you made a joke out of what I said with the scare crow and the fire and the boat. However, I'm not into joking around about serious matters and I don't desire to joke around with you. Please stop with the jokes.
Please understand, I don't want this to turn into one of those "name calling/ make a fool out of each other in front of every one" threads. So, I'm done here.
God bless you! -Abraham
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 3, 2008 14:36:55 GMT -5
I already have this verse list saved in my computer. I once used a lot of these scriptures to try to disprove God's Sovereign Grace. Thank you for sending me the list. I know that you desire good for me. That was kind of funny the way you made a joke out of what I said with the scare crow and the fire and the boat. However, I'm not into joking around about serious matters and I don't desire to joke around with you. Please stop with the jokes. Please understand, I don't want this to turn into one of those "name calling/ make a fool out of each other in front of every one" threads. So, I'm done here. God bless you! -Abraham I don't "disprove God's Sovereign Grace" Abraham. I have a different definition of Sovereignty and Grace and I propose that mine is Biblical. Brother, this was some innocent, light-hearted fun until you turned it into this. The scare crow, fire and boat were not posted in order to make fun. They were posted in order to show the foolishness of the straw man arguments brought against my position. You obviously don't know what I believe because you just keep straw manning it to death. Glad you are done with this thread. I really don't have time to sit here and discuss these things all day...especially when I am just refuting straw men arguments all day. I pray that God reveals His Truth to you AND that you will obey it...
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Post by pete777 on Apr 3, 2008 17:32:37 GMT -5
Brethern,
God has allowed all men to choose whom they will serve. He has offered us to choose Christ or Satan! He is not a God of force, He does not save some and damn others, all are completely free to choose! The doctrine that God has predetermined some to hell and some to eternal life, can not be found in the Word of God and is a gross fabrication, to justify sin in the flesh, and to go on sinning right up until the second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.
Let me explain! If God chooses some and condemns others then there is no such thing as a choice. If we are not able to choose then that makes a mockery of Christ on the cross, why did He have to die? If God does what He wants without regard to law and righteousness then He is a wicked tyrant that takes pleasure in death and misery! But that is not true! God is the author of perfect "right doing" which He never moves even an hairs breadth from. He is the author of law, which He follows in absolute perfection. He offers us His power to do the same if we CHOOSE! God's law is His character, of which He can not and will not change. To prove it (Mal 3:6, James 1:17), God sent a member of the GODHEAD, Jesus Christ, who is eternal and DIVINE, and has always existed and was never created; to die for mankind! Why? Because God can not change His law!
The wages of sin is death (a state of non-existance)! The wages of sin is eternal death, the second death! But that penalty has not been meeted out on anyone as of yet! It will be soon enough! But the fact is that sin could not be overlooked! God is not able to change His eternal perfection into anything less than perfect! He follows the principles of eternal righteousness, therefore, sin had to be punished! Jesus Christ accepted that punishment and now man has a second probationary period to learn to choose right doing by faith! Faith leads to grace, grace is God's power, God's power is in our life by the gift of God, which is the Holy Spirit; that which was seperated from us at the fall of man! This is the plan of salvation from our sinful characters! Salvation is the PROCESS whereby we submit to God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and are able to break free from the bondage of Satan! The law is not bondage! The law is bondage to sinners, because they are bound to Satan and eternal death! But if you receive the Holy Spirit you are now empowered to obey the law (God's works, not yours!) by the power of redemption! This is the New Covenant! God promises to write His law in our minds and hearts and the finished product will be like Jesus in character, and like Adam before the fall, but even greater, because we now know and hate sin, we are experienced and have learned the lessons of transgression and disobedience! We will never be DECEIVED again throughout all eternity. Man will never CHOOSE to sin again!
Calvinism is deceitful, and the sovern God doctrine, because it says there is no rules for God, and that we in essence do not choose to be saved but God has choosen us! This is deep madness, and hate-speach against a loving God! God offers all power to choose whom he will obey! If it be Satan and SIN or if it be Christ and sinlessness! The power has been offered to everyone on planet earth from the creation of man, but not all want it! Some love sin and choose it and will reap what they sow!
Jesus' death proves the Ten Commandments are eternal and immutable, not one jot or tittle can change, just like God can not change! His law is perfect, and so is He! The fact that Jesus Christ died is eternal evidence that God's law is still standing and will judge all in the end. So choose now the gift of the Holy Spirit so you can have power to obey the eternal principles of the Law and you can live! But if you reject the Ten Commandments you reject Jesus Christ! Because you are choosing sin! Christians profess Jesus all the time but many of them are still slaves to their vise and sin and filth! They have not been born again into the GOSPEL POWER to overcome Satan and the sinful flesh desires! They are failures and do not have spirtual power! They are doomed to a life of deception, because in them they want SIN and Christ at the same time! But the hypocrits will burn in hell! And the ones that choose life (victory over sin) by the POWER OF THE GOSPEL they will live in the New Heaven and New Earth forever, and NEVER CHOOSE SIN AGAIN! So we must choose now the offer of eternal righteousness, which is spiritual power to obey the Law!
Pete
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Post by logic on Apr 3, 2008 20:02:20 GMT -5
The wages of sin is death (a state of non-existance)! The wages of sin is eternal death, the second death! I need to correct this one. Death is not a state of non-existance. Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things. Physical death, spirit from body - Eccl 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.James 2:26 as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Spiritual death, God from man - Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you between and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.The penalty of sin is death, the penalty of sin is not ''to suffer an eternal punishment''. The only reason That the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without Eternal Life. If Eternal Life after death is in the presence with God, then to die without Eternal Life is eternal punishment. If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is nashing of teeth. Jamess 1:25a But whoever looks into the perfect law of liberty...James 2:12 So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.All mankind has power to obey the law, however, not consistently. But, we are empowered to obey the law consistently through the love for God. John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.John 14:21 He that has my commandments, and keeps them, it is he that loves me...1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1John 5:3, 2John 1:6. Yes! It is because we will not have this corruptable, flesh. Amen! Calvinism & the Reformed theology makes God into a sadistic tyrant. Thanx Pete
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 3, 2008 21:15:16 GMT -5
The wages of sin is death (a state of non-existance)! The wages of sin is eternal death, the second death! I need to correct this one. -----------
For the Breath of life is found in the Nostrils, which is *our Spirit*, not some ghost body [seperate from God], which always exist, which is a Catholic Doctrine. Or called spiritualism. The Dead are not really dead, but alive some Where. No!
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the *spirit of God* is in *my nostrils*;
Job 33:4 The *spirit of God* hath made me,[Gen 2:7] and the breath of the Almighty hath *given me life*.
When we die our breath [spirit of God] Leaves, which goes to God [Eccl 12:7]. We go [soul] No Where. We cease to exist. [Ps104:29] We are in books in Heaven [Mal 3:16-18] Which remember what we Did.
Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
The Lord states He is the Resurrection and the Life, which we that have Died in Christ will be [Breath] put back into us, on at the Second coming, and only Then we are immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this *mortal* [Job 4:17] shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, >>Death<<is swallowed up in victory.
Are we today, Immortal?
This is what happens at death! expessialy if we follow Man-made doctrines!
Job 34:14 If he set his *heart upon man*, if he gather unto himself his spirit [H7307,Wind, Breath - exhale] and his breath [;H5397, soul]
15 *All flesh* [which is called Flesh, both spirit and soul] shall perish together,[Very Clear] and man shall turn again >>unto dust.<< [which is both soul and body,[Matthew 10:28] for they are the same, Gen 2:7]
Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their *breath, they die*, and return to their dust. [They are not alive in God in heaven or Hell, but Dead in the Grave] Job 17:13,21:32;Ps 6:5;Eccl 9:10
If we are in Heaven without a Heavely Body or with our glorified body when we died in Christ, do we come back down, turn back into Dust, to be resurrected with the same body we had once, to receive our Reward of immortality and go back into our Glorified homes in Heaven. No! For the Dead are still here waiting in the grave for the Shout of the Lord. Amen
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Post by logic on Apr 3, 2008 22:36:09 GMT -5
The wages of sin is death (a state of non-existence)! The wages of sin is eternal death, the second death! I need to correct this one. ----------- For the Breath of life is found in the Nostrils, which is *our Spirit*, not some ghost body [separate from God], which always exist, which is a Catholic Doctrine. Or called spiritualism. The Dead are not really dead, but alive some Where. No! When we die our breath [spirit of God] Leaves, which goes to God [Eccl 12:7]. We go [soul] No Where. We cease to exist. Are you and pete777 annihilists? Jesus died physically on the cross, did HE cease to exist? Wasn't HE really alive some Where? To the damned just blink out of existence? This would means the damned have hope. They will be in the flames of hell for a while waiting for that day when they will not exist. What is the point of judgment then? Is spiritual death when ones spirit does not exist? Or is it when one has no relationship with Christ(separated from God) Why would the meaning of (spiritual)death be different for physical death?
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 4, 2008 9:13:26 GMT -5
Are you and pete777 annihilists? -----------
I am confused on the Comment? Please Explain?
-------- Jesus died physically on the cross, did HE cease to exist? Wasn't HE really alive some Where? --------
Yes, He ceased to exist![Death] No! He was not alive some where else? Death is Death. Payment for our Sins, Suffered and Died!
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, [Always existed] and was dead;[G3498,(a corpse); dead] and, behold, I am alive for evermore, [Breath of life returned, Resurrected] Amen; and have the keys of hell [Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, Job 17:13, Job 21:32] and of death. [G2348, be dead, die.] No Breath
---------- To the d**ned just blink out of existence? ----------
What does the Bible say? - Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be *ashes under the soles* [Which is both soul and body, for they are the same. Gen 2:7] of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:[Breath, character of actions recorded in the Books, Mal 3:16-18] but rather fear him which is able to destroy [cease to exist] both soul and body in hell. [G1067, as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:[Not Punishing] - hell [Grave] Job 17:13, Job 21:32
Shall Perish, Ps 37:20; will burn up, Mal 4:1; destroyed Togather, Ps 37:38; will consume away, Ps 37:20; fire will devour them, Ps 21:9, suffer Death, Rom 6:23
-------- This would means the d**ned have hope. --------
Really, How So!
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [breath of life] and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [Dead] Do not exist! Job 21:30 That the wicked is **reserved to the day of destruction**? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. [Rom 1:18-28]
Matt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the **end of this world**. [Rev 20:9, Mal 4:3; Ezek 28:18]
So how is being Devoured, turning into Ash, as the result of the fire [both body and soul, the spirit is the breath of live, taken] give the Lost Hope? I do not understand!
---------- They will be in the flames of hell for a while waiting for that day when they will not exist. What is the point of judgment then ------------
Where do you get this from the Bible, this is out of Catholic theology [Tradition from the Middle ages] to fill the coffers of Rome, by fear! As noted above, The Fires of Hell are future after the Second Resurrection, after the Great white Throne of Judgment!
There are no flames of Hell today, No pit of fire burning people, No one is suffering. God is Just in His Judgment!
The Dead are sleeping in their Graves, until the 1st [In Christ] or 2nd Resurrection [out of Christ]
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: **till the heavens be no more,** [Future] they shall not awake, nor be >>raised out of their sleep.<<
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my *appointed time will I wait*, >>till my change come.<<
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Post by logic on Apr 4, 2008 16:10:07 GMT -5
Are you and pete777 annihilists? ----------- I am confused on the Comment? Please Explain? Annihilists are ones who believe that the damed blink out of existence after a while from the lake of fire. Are you implying that, at one point in time, the Trinity God became a binary God? You're messing with the Trinity. Jesus is God & God can not, "not exist". Or, as you imply, Rev 1:18? 'I am he that lives, and became non-existant; and, behold, I am alive and exist again for evermore. Psalm 73:21 Thus my soul was grieved, and I was pierced in my heart. According to you, 'Thus my body was grieved...' Matthew 26:38 Then said he unto them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, Did He mean that His body was exceedingly sorrowful? I could go on with how you don't make sense with this one, but I hope you can see the error. There is a distinction between body & soul. Nice twist. However, even the breath & character of actions are different than the body itself. What do you call the seat of the feelings, desires, affections & aversions? Furthermore, where or what is this place (or state) of everlasting punishment: Is " not existing" a punishment? No one existed before they were born, were they in this place (or state) of everlasting punishment? Are you implying that all those who do not exist(or not born) are in "a place (or state) of everlasting punishment"? Because they are waiting to not exist, as they did before they were born. Not existing would sure beat being tormented. That is what I mean, The Fires of Hell are future after the Second Resurrection. The "lake of fire" I agree with you there, but I don't call that "not existing" There soul is where the rich man was when asking for Lazerus.
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 6, 2008 21:28:02 GMT -5
Annihilists are ones who believe that the damed blink out of existence after a while from the lake of fire. -------
Sir, Please keep in mind, calling names or labeling people is not respected on this board.
Bible Christians follow the Bible by Faith.
The Scriptures on the Destruction are noted above, please is there one you do not understand! Or needs to be clarified on the destruction of the Soul and Body in Hell due to unrepentant sin.
Death means Death, Destruction means destruction, ashes mean the Remains of Body and soul after the result of the fire judgment. I am amazed, people believe Death is Not Life some where else, except when they open the Bible, and it means you live some where else.
This is Catholic Theology, which is spiritualism!
---------------- Are you implying that, at one point in time, the Trinity God became a binary God? You're messing with the Trinity. Jesus is God & God can not, "not exist". ---------------
I am not implying anything, what would lead you to this conclusion, I did use Bible References, to state my Claim.
Jesus Died, and His Breath was in the Hands of His Father to be resurrected. He had to pay our price. Suffering and Death!
To accuse me of messing with the Trinity, Please, Jesus stated He Was Dead. Did you read His Words and His Statement.
[Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, [Always existed] and was dead;[G3498,(a corpse); dead] and, behold, I am alive for evermore, [Breath of life returned, Resurrected] Amen; and have the keys of hell [Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, Job 17:13, Job 21:32] and of death. [G2348, be dead, die.] No Breath]
Please do not accuse me of adding or subtracting from His Own Words.
Dead does not be alive somewhere Else.!
------------------ Psalm 73:21 Thus my soul was grieved, and I was pierced in my heart.
According to you, 'Thus my body was grieved...'
Matthew 26:38 Then said he unto them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful,
Did He mean that His body was exceedingly sorrowful?
I could go on with how you don't make sense with this one, but I hope you can see the error. There is a distinction between body & soul. -------------
Sorry, I do not see it. Please, Soul and Body are interchangeable in your references.
I hope you can see, this has nothing to do with the Doctrine of God's Word after our breath leaves us.
There is absolutely no reference noted to a difference between a soul and a body as separate.
Catholic Theology! Teaches such Heresy! I am not stating you are! We are no longer in the Dark ages, where they stole the Bible, and implanted strange doctrines. But by God's Grace and Power we can read the Bible and come to the Truth again, to the Glory of God. Amen
The Bible states, in Genesis 2:7 NO soul was Given, but we are a Soul. When the Breath Leaves, the Body and Soul Dies.
---------- Because they are waiting to not exist, as they did before they were born. Not existing would sure beat being tormented. ----------
Where are they waiting, I have seen no scripture evidence, The Dead are asleep and reserved in the Grave, as the Bible has noted, until their court room date of their life's work, have been reviewed. The First Resurrection Jesus comes with His Rewards, not a Judgment. For the Judgment as already taken place.
Why do you want people tormented before they can face their Judge for the crimes committed.
Do the Police after arresting a Person for a crime, toucher a person in prison before the Judge reviews the case.
Can man be more just Than God. No! The Lord is just, all will stand before the judgment seat at the same time.
---------- That is what I mean, The Fires of Hell are future after the Second Resurrection. The "lake of fire" ----------
That is why they are not burning Now, No lake of Fire!
It is future, I agree, the Dead in sin without Christ are in the Grave in the Books, that the Saints will review in the 1000 year reign, and Judgment will be carried out at the Great White Throne Judgment.
They will attempt to attack the City, and fire will fall upon them, and devour them until ash, the Result of Fire. The Earth is the Lake of Fire, the entire surface, and then the Fire will go out.
---------- I agree with you there, but I don't call that "not existing"
There soul is where the rich man was when asking for Lazarus. ----------
This is a Parable to teach the Jews, because they where born of Father Abraham, [for this was their Language] they would be casted out due to Sin, He spoke in language they could understand.
Lazarus, are the Gentiles at the gates [outer court of the temple] of Jerusalem wanting to hear the truth of Scripture and about the Lord God, but they [Jews] held back the truth, the sores, are the result of Spiritual death, do to no Spiritual Food. The Dogs are Demons feeding on them.
Look who goes to Heaven, and Who in the End goes to Hell. This Parable also is for us today as Christians, if we hold on to the light of Truth, we are no different than the Jews, They made them Kings holding onto the Oracles of the Living Word, And made themselves the God only Club.
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Post by pete777 on Apr 6, 2008 22:42:03 GMT -5
The state of the dead!
Just what happen in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve were created! If they sinned against God they were to die! They were not to live on! However, the great PROMISE of the Bible was given by Christ to the sinful couple. Genesis 3:15
Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. KJV
This promise gave Adam and Eve and all the way down to us and to the second coming of Jesus Christ a probationary period. It was a promise that Christ would come and die for mankind, but that Satan would be killed in the end, at the final day of judgment.
If there would have been no promise given, then they would have been blotted out of existance right then and there by fire until they were uncreated! But instead they are dust, non-existant a state called "sleep," or nothingness until the resurrection.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.KJV
Adam does not exist right now! He is dust! But there will be a resurrection one day and he will come out of the dust!
If Adam turned from his sin the rest of his probationary life, then he will be given eternal life at the first resurrection. However, if Adam continued on in sin then he will be in the second resurrection and will be burnt with the fires of hell, and return forever to the state before creation! Nothingness! Hell fire punishes for sin, and then goes out once the sinner has paid the penalty.
This is what the Bible teaches! I can not find anywhere in the Bible where sinners burn in hell throughout eternity! The punishment is everlasting, in that the sinner will be forever non-existant! He does not receive eternal life to burn forever!
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: KJV
Sinners do not have eternal life now or in the future! They have never eaten from the tree of Life, and therefore they will not eat from it in the future! The wicked do not eat from the tree of Life so that they can live forever in the fires of hell. THey will return to the dust, as ashes! Mal 4:1-4
Pete
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Post by logic on Apr 7, 2008 13:06:15 GMT -5
Sir, Please keep in mind, calling names or labeling people is not respected on this board. I'm not calling names, "Annihilists" is just like the title "dispensationalist" or "pre-triber". An annihilists" is only a word to describe that which one believes which is annihlism. Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things. Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God while being physically alive. Death also may mean the state of decay & corruption, while life means growth & repairation. However, death never is implyed to be state of non-existence. The body & soul are not interchangable. They are not the same thing. While the soul may be grieved, the body is not. They must be separately, different things. When something pierces ones soul, it can not mean it pierces the body. Let me get this straight. You believe when one dies, he blinks out of existence as he was before he was born, then, at the judgment in front if the White Thrown of God, that person comes back into existence. Is this correct. You said, "Jesus ceased to exist", in reply #40 That means one of the Trinity did not exist. That means at one point in time, the Trinity God became a binary God. Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross. Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He was separated from God which is spiritual death. Jesus died physically when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luke 23:46, John 19:30. Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He was separated from God which is spiritual death. Jesus died physically when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luke 23:46, John 19:30. HIS body did not cease to exist. If the term "body" and "soul" are the same and interchangeable, why do you say that Jesus ceased to exist if His body didn't? While Jesus body lay in the tomb, His (Holy)Spirit & Soul went to be with His father for three days & nights. The Godhead Trinity remained a trinity. I don't mean to "accuse you, however, the meaning of your words imply that one of the trinity ceased to exist(making a binary godhead). What other conclusion could I come up with? Since you have a different meaning of death since you have a different meaning of life. Matthew 26:38 Then said he unto them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, Did He mean that His body was exceedingly sorrowful? In Matthew 10:28, why did He say, "body & soul" if hey are interchangeable? Even when you quoted the verse, you Had to make a distinction between the two, because they are not interchangeable, & if they were, the use of the word "body" with "soul" would have only used "body" only. Gen 27:4 And make me savory food, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless you before I die.It doesn't make sense to have it say, "that my body may bless you before I die" Why, then, is "body" & "soul" used in the same verse in v.Matthew 10:28? Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(2416) ;and man became a living soul(5315). The life of the flesh is not the breath, but the blood. Lev 17:11Therefore, that which God breath into Adam was not just breathe, but specifically " the breath of life" which is different from ordinary breath. Otherwise, the verse would only have said, "God breathed air into his nostrils and man became a living soul" The breath of life is that which make flesh alive apart from blood. Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has [soul] life(Strongs # 5315 & 2416)... The term "soul life" is also in Gen 1:30. The soul is that which animates the flesh, the blood is that which gives life to the flesh. Their "living" soul (the animating principle) are waiting in the grave while their dead body(blood stopped being pumped) is rotting & decomposing in the ground. I don't. That is a very great point, I agree to that. No, but they are kept in the holding cell waiting for judgment, before sent to prison. I agree, "Hell" is not the lake of fire, it is "the place o the dead". A holding cell for the soul & body, The flesh & The animating principal of the flesh. The breath & blood do not animate the flesh, the soul does.
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 7, 2008 14:51:00 GMT -5
I'm not calling names, "Annihilists" is just like the title "dispensationalist" or "pre-triber". An annihilists" is only a word to describe that which one believes which is annihlism. -------------
I disagee, it is just to justify oneself, to label and put people into camps, and set others above the rest. I pray in God's Grace I do not follow your logic!
-------------- Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body. -------
I agree, which is the Breath of life, given by God. Gen 2:7
---------- Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God while being physically alive. --------------
Pure assumption on your part! This is the Serpent language out of Genesis! and a False Doctrine, spun by satan to confuse that dead are not realy Dead.
God Said: Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt *surely* > die.
H4191 A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
I do not see life some where else, Do you!
Satan Said: Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall *not surely* > die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
being god's is choosing over God's Commandments, which is a god!
Who are you going to Believe Logic, The Lord which states We Sin, We Die: Cease to exist? Which we Need His Breath to live, for WE ARE NOT IMMORTAL. We are mortal, Job 4:17
Or Satan, which states you can choose, ye will not really die, just keep on living somewhere else. God lied, I have the knowledge that the Lord did not tell you.
Satan states we are immortal, we will never Die.
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Post by logic on Apr 7, 2008 18:44:36 GMT -5
I'm not calling names, "Annihilists" is just like the title "dispensationalist" or "pre-triber". An annihilists" is only a word to describe that which one believes which is annihlism. ------------- I disagee, it is just to justify oneself, to label and put people into camps, and set others above the rest. I pray in God's Grace I do not follow your logic! No, it ain't to justify oneself. You are a Christian because of you belief. Did i just label you? Was it only to put you into a camp? Did I set you above the rest? No, I called you a word to describe that which you believe, which is a christian. I defined your belief. The same with "Annihilist". However, my point of asking was to know weather or not you believe in what those who are "Annihilists" believe? Notice the words "in the day that you eat" Adam surly did not die physically that day. Therefore, Adam died spiritualy that day. Adam lost his rightstanding with God which is spiritual death. I should of been more spcecific on what spiritual death is. Since spiritual life is knowing Christ or having a relationship with Him according to John 17:3. Having a rightstanding(righteousness) with God Spiritual death is man separated (no relationship) from God, no rightstanding with Him. Isa 59:1-2 But your iniquities have separated you between and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.I'm not denying that Adam died that day in which he ate of the tree. I am just stating that he died spiritualy, not physically; Adam was no longer in right standing with God, he lost his relationship that he once had. God took the initiative and healed that relationship. Adam died physically about 900 years later(not in the day that he ate) by the cause of being cut off from the Tree of Life You never explained how the Trinity God did not become binary god if Jesus cased to exist when He died. However, we all sinned. When we first sinned, we all died spiritualy that day because of our first willful, intentional sin. We all die physically because we are flesh(in Adam), not because we sin If physical death is because of sin, why do plants & animals die physically? Why do we still die physically if our sinnes that cause us to die physically are forgiven? I'm not stating that. All I'm saying is that sinners soul(not body) remains in existance & concious while in the grave.
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 7, 2008 19:15:16 GMT -5
Notice the words "in the day that you eat" Adam surly did not die physically that day. Therefore, Adam died spiritualy that day. Adam lost his rightstanding with God which is spiritual death. --------
His Spirit is His Breath, [Job 27:3;33:4] not a spirit of knowledge, [Eccl 9:5] life of itself or anything else! When Adam Died, His breath left, and He Died.
Did He Die, Yes, God Word is true. [He was cut off from the Tree of Life, Christ] Satan's lied. For He is Dust, sleeping until God calls Him. Amen
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.
Just like stephen.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, >>receive my spirit.<<
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this,>> he fell asleep.<<
His Spirit is His Breath back to God, who gave it. Eccl 12:7. And He is sleeping in Christ, not in heaven, waiting for the Second coming of our Lord.
He is not alive in heaven a ghost with no body. He is Dead in Christ on the Earth! Amen
His life and words are recorded in the Books in Heaven, but that is it.
Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
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Post by logic on Apr 7, 2008 21:58:53 GMT -5
trustandobey:
You never explained how the Trinity God did not become binary god if Jesus cased to exist when He died. -------------------------
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.
Did Adam die that day? What kind of death was it "that day"? ------------------------- What is spiritual(eternal) life according to John 17:3?
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 8, 2008 7:44:09 GMT -5
Logic, I do not have to explain it, God Does
How hard is it for them, that cannot simply read and listen to the Words of God, and trust by faith in Jesus Himself. But come to their own understanding, based on private interpretations and will not study to show themselves approved unto God, rightly divinding the Word of Truth.
Jesus stated on the Cross, My God, My God, why has thou *forsaken me*, [He became Sin for us] and darkness covered the sky. Jesus was seperated from God, until John 20:17
Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou **forsaken me? **
Jesus Died [ceased to exist Rev 1:18] on Friday a 3pm, Day one, Rested on His Sabbath, Day two, and arose just before sunrise on sunday, day three. [Remember God's Day are sunset to sunset, with the first part of the day is dark.]
[Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, [Always existed] and was dead;[G3498,(a corpse); dead] and, behold, I am alive for evermore, [Breath of life returned, Resurrected] Amen; and have the keys of hell [Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, Job 17:13, Job 21:32] and of death. [G2348, be dead, die.] No Breath]
Mary was the first to see Him, and Jesus stated
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am *not yet ascended* to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus never was with His Father during Death, His body never saw corruption as well. Amen
Jesus never stopped being the Trinity, during this time. Why would you think such things.
He gave God the Glory to do His Will to save those that are lost, to bring them to the Father.
I do not see your point, or see your conclusions to prove your points in Scripture.
Jesus stated He was Dead, did not exist, and went to the Father after the Resurrection, to present His Blood in the holy place. Amen
Did Adam die that day? What kind of death was it "that day"? ------------------------- What is spiritual(eternal) life according to John 17:3? ----------------
1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;[Same as body, breath Gen 2:7;Job 27:3;33:4] the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [Came alive from Death to save us. Rev 1:18]
Again, I already explain this in the previous Verse, stating it again, does not change the answer in Scripture!
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Where does the Spirit live without the Body after Death here, un repented Sin will lead to the 2 Death, which is eternal Death after the Breath [spirit of man], cease to exist at the 2nd Resurrection of the lost. Eternal life can only come through Christ in us the Hope of Glory, cor 1:27 which His Gift is Immortaliy only at His Second coming, the First Resurrection. 1 cor 15:51-53
Sin is the Transgression of the Law, the Wages of Sin is Death, Did Adam Die, YES! God states we are seperate and will Die,[cease to exist] Satan states we will live after death.
Jesus could have judged Adam and Eve right there and then, But He did not, Grace was introduced, which is His Power Eph 3:7,16,20 [Jesus] in us to Reconsile us to His Father in His future Sacrifice.[Which is only Throu the Holy spirit, 1 Pet 1:10,12] His suffering and Death, The Testimony of Jesus. Rev 12:17;Rev 19:10
The Lord Gave Adam and Eve a propationary period, Just like you and I today, God could have taken us out when we sinned, He did not. [Grace] a propationary period for Jesus in us to reconsile us to the Father, by our williness to co-operate [2 Cor 8:11-12,Ps 90:5;51:17] with the Lord by Faith to trust His Word.
This has nothing to do with a spirit, which is defined by the Bible and the Bible alone, as the Breath of Life in our nostrils. Job 27:3; 33:4
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Post by logic on Apr 8, 2008 11:07:02 GMT -5
Death is Not blinking out of existance That would mean we come back into existanc for judgment. What is it in us that seaces to exist anyway? Jesus never stopped being the Trinity, during this time. Why would you think such things. Because, you say that HE ceased to exist. If HE does not exist, how would HE still be of the Trinity? Did Adam physically die "in the day" that he ate of the Tree? No. It must, therefore, be a spiritual death in that day. Yes, Adam died spiritualy. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Since the gift of God is eternal(spirityal) life, then the wage is also spiritual. God did judge right there and then. Why else was a sacrifice needed? God secrificed the firsy animal and made coats for them. Spiritaul death is the wage of sin, Adam payed the price by dying spiritualy "in the day" that he ate the tree. Theire is no probationary period. Judgment was swift. With our first intentional, willful sin, we loose our right standing with God which is spiritual death. That is only if physical death was the penalty for sin. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Since the gift of God is eternal(spirityal) life, then the wage is also spiritual. Untill we agree on the correct understanding of what life and death is, you will never understand.
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 8, 2008 11:57:05 GMT -5
Logic,
In case you haven't figured it out yet you are talking with a Seventh Day Adventist.
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Post by pete777 on Apr 8, 2008 12:15:29 GMT -5
Logic,
The Godhead is the Biblical term for the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. The Pagan word concept that the Catholic Church coined "trinity," can not be found in the Bible! Yes there are three Divine beings that have ever existed, that are co-equal! But to use the word trinity is to accept the Catholic Churches definition of the use of the word, which is not what you or I or any Bible believing Christian should believe. Therefore, in describing the Godhead, I do not use the term "trinity." It is not Biblical and it refers one back to the blasphemous wicked, antichrist, filth of the PAPACY! The Catholic Church is the church os Satan on this earth!
Jesus Christ is Jahovah GOD! Matthew 1:23 EMMANUEL = GOD with us! Jesus took the body of a man! He was still God! His human body did die! But God Almighty did not die! He died as a man! The man Jesus died! The eternal God part of Him can not die! This is not a mystery! He took the body of a man suffered in that body and died (His human life expired!) But the divine being, the second member of the Godhead, lived on as God! Jesus' death was real. His body was dead! THere was no spirit in it! It did not do anything after the cross, until the fist day of the week, when His body was resurrected to do the rest of the work of salvation!
If you were to die, since you are not GOD in the flesh, you would not live on in some other form! You would cease to exist just like Jesus did! And one day, because you were faithful to God (Jesus Christ) you will be resurrected by Him! The period in between your death and resurrection, is NOTHINGNESS!
Look in Genesis when Jesus Christ made man!
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. KJV
DUST + BREATH = Living soul!
If you take away the breath you have = DUST!
If you take away the dust you have = No living soul!
These are the ingredients to a LIVING SOUL! The soul is not IMMORTAL!!!! It is mortal!
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? KJV
ONLY GOD HAS IMMORTALITY! Only God can give give immortality, when we get to eat from the TREE OF LIFE, that mankind was barred from, after Adam and Eve sinned! That is why we die, and it is why we do not exist in some spooky spirit body! Breath plus dust = living soul! A soul is simply a living breathing human being! It is nothing more or anything less, if you die you are not a living soul, but rotting flesh with no existance. But GOd be thanked that one day, we will have immortal life, because of the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST! This is what we seek after!
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality , eternal life: KJV
We are to seek! We do not possess! Only God has it, and we will get it at the second coming of Jesus Christ! He will take us to heaven and we will eat from the TREE of LIFE, and live forever. THem that do not exisist now (meaning the DEAD saints) will be resurrected from the dust! They are dead, but have their names written in the Book of Life, and when Jesus CHrist comes back, He is the God of the "LIVING," meaning them that are to be awarded with eternal life at His coming!
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice , because your names are written in heaven. KJV
This text LUKE 10:20 means that if we die now and cease to exist, it will be for a short time, a sleep or a nap if you will. It will not last long, why? Because this temporary death is but for a moment, and eternity is forever. There is no comparison, of a temporary death to the eternal time we will live. It is but a short sleep that will not even be noticed. Look at Adam, he has been dead for about 5,000 years. But when Jesus comes back (and soon I might add!) it will seem to Adam that only a blink of an eye passed! Only a micro second passed for him, why? Because when you die you do not exist, and the next moment you wake up and there is Jesus Christ coming in the clouds of heaven! It will seem like no time has passed at all!
Pete
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Post by pete777 on Apr 8, 2008 12:38:05 GMT -5
Logic,
Consider these verses. THey support perfectly what I was attempting to explain in the previous post. If we die, we sleep (a temporary state of non-existance) until we are resurrected at the "LAST TRUMP." The last trump is the SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST!
1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality .
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality , then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. KJV
Meaning that when JESUS CHRIST comes back, and we (the faithful saints) are resurrected, we are the victors (thanks to Jesus Christ) over sin, which leads to death, which is Satan's power over humanity. The wages of sin is death! It is nothing for the believer, because the believer, has the hope of eternal life, so that if he or she died, it would not matter at all! He or she would be resurrected when Jesus CHrist comes back and eternal life or immortality will then be in our possession!
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality , dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. KJV
2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: KJV
The gospel promises are all fulfilled when Jesus Christ comes in the clouds of heaven, and resurrects the dead. We then receive our reward! IN FACT JESUS BRINGS OUR REWARD WITH HIM!!!!
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. KJV
When Jesus Christ comes we will receive our reward! He will clothe us with immortality! We will come out of the dust! We will exist once again!
Daniel 12:1-2 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
When Jesus is finished as our "High Priest" and is no longer mediating for mankind, the Book of LIFE is complete, there will be the closing
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. KJV
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Post by pete777 on Apr 8, 2008 13:02:58 GMT -5
Logic, Consider these verses. THey support perfectly what I was attempting to explain in the previous post. If we die, we sleep (a temporary state of non-existance) until we are resurrected at the "LAST TRUMP." The last trump is the SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST! 1 Cor 15:51-54 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality , then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. KJV Meaning that when JESUS CHRIST comes back, and we (the faithful saints) are resurrected, we are the victors (thanks to Jesus Christ) over sin, which leads to death, which is Satan's power over humanity. The wages of sin is death! It is nothing for the believer, because the believer, has the hope of eternal life, so that if he or she died, it would not matter at all! He or she would be resurrected when Jesus Christ comes back and eternal life or immortality will then be in our possession! 1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality , dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. KJV 2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: KJV The gospel promises are all fulfilled when Jesus Christ comes in the clouds of heaven, and resurrects the dead. We then receive our reward! IN FACT JESUS BRINGS OUR REWARD WITH HIM!!!! Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. KJVWhen Jesus Christ comes we will receive our reward! He will clothe us with immortality! We will come out of the dust! We will exist once again! Daniel 12:1-2 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. KJV When Jesus is finished as our "High Priest" and is no longer mediating for mankind, the Book of LIFE is complete, then will be the closing sceens of earths history (seven last plagues, mark of beast, seal of God...etc) Probation will close! Look what words Jesus Christ utters as He finishes His mediation in the Heavenly Sanctuary! Revelation 22:11 Rev 22:11-12 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. KJV The close of human probation is ended a short time before Jesus Christ shows up in the clouds of heaven! He finishes His work of perfecting the character of His people, and He comes to get the "GOSPEL HARVEST." He comes to cut down the wheat and take the wheat to Himself, and spit the CHAFF out into death! WE are the wheat! We are the fruit of the gospel harvest! Read Revelation 14, the whole chapter. It is symbolic of the old Jewish sancturary harvest economy! In order to understand the closing sceens of earth's history, you 100% absolutely, most positively, without exception, must, must, must,must, understand the old Jewish sanctuary!!!!!!!! The literal ceremonies pointed forward to the Spiritual truths of the GOSPEL! In every detail! For example, Jesus died on the passover! He was our LAMB OF GOD! He is called our passover! 1 Corinthians 5:7. Look what Jesus Christ said about Himself referring to the old Mosiac laws and rituals! Luke 24:25-27 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. KJVWe understand the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy, because of a foundational understanding of the sanctuary system that GOD who is JESUS CHRIST gave to MOSES, so WE could understand the gospel in the end of time, without being confused by all the sperious doctrines that would cloud the study of the sincere seeker of truth, right before the end of the world! Paul was referring to the Jews in the WILDERNESS when he wrote 1 Cor 10:9-11 and he said, the things written were for us! NOW! THE END OF THE WORLD! Then you go to Revelation with an understanding of the sanctuary symbolic teachings and you can decode the truth!!! Revelation 1:1, it is SIGNIFIED, or SYMBOLIC of the old Jewish sancturay. Why do you think few people on earth have a perfect understanding of Revelation, as they do that know the SANCTUARY SYSTEM? ? 1 Cor 10:9-11 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. KJV When we look at the issue of death in the old Jewish sancturay we see, that it is just that death! When you die you are dead! You do not have breath, therefore, you do not have a soul, therefore you do not have life! The lambs were killed! We are to one day die as well, unless we are alive when Jesus shows up! But if we die before He comes, we do not exist until He comes to wake us out of our sleep of death, so we can have eternal life and live and reign with HIM, our loving Saviour that took a body like a man, and died a horrible suffering death for us! After the death of Jesus Christ, His body was resurrected and He will ever, be a 100% man that died, and 100% GOD that has always lived! It is the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ! Dust + Breath = a living soul. If you take any of the two ingredients out of the recipe you have NOTHING! Just like God said! If you sin you DIE! But Satan said you shall not die, but live! Who is telling the truth? God said man shall die, and not live on in some other form! Satan said man shall not die and shall live on in some other form, which is spiritualism, necromancy, or witchcraft. The Bible is clear that God is telling the truth and that Satan is a master deceiver and liar! Rev 13:3 ALL THE WORLD WONDERS AFTER SATAN and his false teachings! 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; KJV 1 Tim 6:1 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.KJV The Catholic Church teaches that man lives on after death! This is an exclusive teaching from the Romish, W hore church of the Babylonian system of falsehoods. She is the mother (of churches) that do not follow the Bible and the Bible only! As Martin Luther once said "SOLO SCRIPTURA!" The BIble and the Bible alone. Ancient pagan teachings of spiritualism, and necromancy, and life after death are from the PAPAL satanism of false doctrine that has infested the world thorugh traditions, and ideas of man! Pete
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Post by trustandobey on Apr 9, 2008 6:31:12 GMT -5
Death is Not blinking out of existance That would mean we come back into existanc for judgment. ------------------
Not until the Second Death! The Bible is Clear.
The Dead are reserved, in the Grave [asleep] until the First or Second Resurrection. Not in Heaven or Hell. [The Grave is the holding cell] until the Judgments are over.
Death is No Breath, [No life] our life of Works are written in the Books of Rememberance! Mal 3:16-18
Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
Psalm 56:8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?
------------ Did Adam physically die "in the day" that he ate of the Tree? No. It must, therefore, be a spiritual death in that day. Yes, Adam died spiritualy. -------------
Sin is Seperation from God, God is a Spirit, which was in the Physical, The Lord walked in the Garden, Not in any spirtual sence, for sin was not present. The Spirit of Man is the Breath of Life, [Job 27:3;33:4] The Spirit of man, 'Adams breath' after sin did not leave that day, by God's Grace.
The Breath of life, is not a spirtual kingdom. We are not immortal, It is only A Gift of God, to those who overcome their sin in God's Power [Grace] to do so.
Jesus Christ came to create a Spiritual Kingdom, Luke 17:21 to make at-one-ment with the Lord to dwell in His Presence, in us, His Earthly Tabernacle. 1 Cor 6:19
------------- God did judge right there and then.
Why else was a sacrifice needed? God secrificed the firsy animal and made coats for them.
Spiritaul death is the wage of sin, Adam payed the price by dying spiritualy "in the day" that he ate the tree. --------------
You take my statement out of context and claim something I have not said. I cleary stated Sin is the Transgression of the Law. Wages of Sin is Death, in the first Death, awaiting Judgment, 1st is at the judgment seat of Christ, which proclaim His Name, the Second is for those who did not, which will be judged by the saints in the 1000 year reign of Christ.
At the Great white throne, judgment is pronounced, fire will fall which is the lake of fire, the surface of the Earth. The Result of the Fire is Ash, the Breath of life is gone. Death, the fire will go out [Isaiah 47:14], and they will never come to rememberance, for former things are gone [Revelation 21:4]. NO more suffering or Death for the last enemy to be destroyed is Death. [1 Corinthians 15:26]
---- Spiritaul death is the wage of sin ---- That is not what the Bible states, This is a doctrine not found in the Word of God!
The Wages of Sin is Death. NO Breath! Read the Word of God, not your tradition of Catholic theology!
Spiritually dying that day, [God's Kingdom was Physical, today it is within us by His Grace] Adam and Eve Had not sinned as of yet [Grace was not present], so no Spiritual kingdom was present. The Spirit of man is his Breath, which is life from our Creator, without His Breath we do not live [Period]. Which has scripture backing, your belief is Tradition and have failed to prove from the Scripture as evidence.
You stated, did Adam and Eve Die [physically] that Day, No! According to the Law, They should have. God introduced Grace, to make at-one-ment back to God, By God's sacrifice to Himself [suffered and would Die [Physical Death] in His Place] to Save Man.
For Death does not have the Breath of Life. Jesus did not have the Breath of life. He was alseep in His Fathers Hands to be resurrected as to fulfill the scriptures.
He Said it, I believe It, for it is in the Scriptures. And why you want to change the Word of God to fit your tradition, is beyond my Reasoning.
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Post by pete777 on Apr 9, 2008 17:26:42 GMT -5
What Happens At Death?
I. The Great Argument A. Did God Say Man Would Die? Genesis 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. NOTE: Margin says “Dying thou shalt die.” This is more accurate because as the record of Adam and Eve shows they didn’t die instantly, rather, when they sinned the process of dying begin. (see “TEXTS OF INTEREST” below) If wicked man in any shape or form lives in hell fire, is this death? God said, “thou shalt surely die.” Genesis 3: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. NOTE: Here Eve repeats what God had said. Genesis 3: 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. TEXTS OF INTEREST Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. NOTE: Here we see that God made Adam and Eve leave the Garden and guarded the “tree of life” so they could not live for ever. It is here very clear that man does not automatically have eternal life. Does this death only refer to the body of man? Does man have a “soul” that does not die? (see VIII.) Genesis 5: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 1 Corinthians 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. NOTE: When Adam and Eve sinned they caused all of humanity to be sentenced to death because death is the penalty for sin and “all have sinned.” The only way to be pardoned is to be pardoned by Christ who died in our place. This pardon doesn’t automatically cover everyone, only those who choose Christ instead of the world. (see Romans 5:12 above and 6:23) B. Who Said Man Would Not Die? Genesis 3: 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. NOTE: It is Satan himself that says men will not die if he sins. (see Revelation 12:9 below) Revelation 12: 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. TEXT OF INTEREST John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. NOTE: As you prayerfully study the Bible on this subject ask yourself, “who’s side am I on?” God says, “disobedience leads to death.’ Satan says, “God is wrong and that you won’t die.’ Is to say, “man has a soul that can’t die” the same as saying, “ye shall not surely die?”
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