|
Post by jackjackson on Nov 2, 2006 21:47:18 GMT -5
If you have not read this story yet on the intenet, you will. The Rev. Ted Haggard who was the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals and New Life Church resigned today among charges he has been paying for oral sex from a man for the last three years, and takes Meth before they start to enhance the experience. the man claims he has voice messages incrimination Rev. Haggard. Rev. Haggard claims he is innocent, yet resigned.
The Bible says that this should be established by two or three witness since he is an elder, so why resign?
Based on scripture, if he is innocent, he has nothing to worry about and should not let some threat with basis in fact cause him to run away.
On the other hand, if he has a reason to be worried about the voice messages, and is guilty, he added lying to his sin.
If true, this is just another in the line of black eyes for the Church and gives many questioning Christianity another reason to not believe. I pray he had good reason to resign and is actually innocent.
Jack
|
|
|
Post by berean73 on Nov 3, 2006 9:27:39 GMT -5
I just saw this on the news this morning... they played some of the phone messege..... sure sounds like him, but who knows. Also the sub pastor for that church said this morning that last night there was some admition from Teddie to some wrong doing and guilt.
Has anyone heard Teddie's sermons before? I haven't. I was just wondering if this guys was "solid", or is he another megachurch flunkie.
Here we go with the attacks.... I can just see it....
Later ya'll
|
|
|
Post by dale on Nov 3, 2006 10:54:56 GMT -5
I never heard of the guy before today
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Nov 3, 2006 10:57:15 GMT -5
Jeffrey:
I had higher hopes last night that it would be shown he was innocent, but with the news this morning from the Pastor who has taken over that wrongs have been done, the issue has gone from "I am faithful to my wife" and "I am allowing the process to run and am innocent" to his obvious second in charge of the church saying something did occur, but could not say which things were true and which weren't.
It appears he is waiting to see what evidence the man can prove, before he will admit to those things, rather than having remorse and spilling his guts out, admitting everything. It appears he is taking a page out of Bill Clinton's MO, wait to see if the dress has his stain on it before admitting to the sexual part. If or whether is buying drugs (Meth) and or sex with a man, he will cause many to stumble.
To have a church policy which goes against scripture (i.e. stepping down while an investigation happens) is wrong. If he had been innocent of all charges, there is no way he would step down. The comment by one of the church members said that "people say all kinds of things about him". Why did he not go on leave any of those times?
Jack
Jack
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Olver on Nov 3, 2006 11:09:06 GMT -5
Well...*sigh* As it turns out, Mr. Haggard has confessed to some of the allegations. Which allegations he has confessed to is yet unknown to the general public.
We've all heard the saying; with great power comes great responsibility. The same goes with leadership/position. Anyone in an authoritative and leadership position has the potential to really HELP alot of folks...or HURT alot of folks.
To the Christians: We can either fuel the fire of the Enemy's onslaught on this generation by focusing on the scandal and letting it distract the Body of Christ for couple years... Or we can address this issue as concisely and sincerely as possible when we need to, making sure we check our own hearts for bitterness, spite and malice. Like I say to Christian college students almost every day when they see OAO on campus: don't get involved with "Bash the Preacher" conversations, forget about the preacher and go straight for the Gospel! Let's not be distracted from our true goal: winning souls!
To Those Who Do Not Believe Yet: I understand what a public person's failure can do to one's opinion on what they are representing - especially when they are representing Jesus Christ; the epitome of purity, holiness, and righteousness. Please, do your best to not let one man's sin taint your view and opinion of all Christians - whoever it may be. I encourage you to see what the Bible does have to say about sin and it's consequences, and repentance and forgiveness.
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Olver on Nov 3, 2006 11:10:11 GMT -5
P.S. I'm not sure if his church has that policy or the National Association of Evangelicals has that policy.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Nov 3, 2006 12:13:12 GMT -5
Hate tot elly ou, but this is nothing new. Sex scandals and evangelists seem to go hand in hand and I hate to see followers get their bubbles popped, but...the track record speaks for itself
Swaggart, Bakker, Hargus, McPherson and on and on...........
|
|
|
Post by mahatma on Nov 3, 2006 12:16:55 GMT -5
For those who have not heard of him, he is (ws) the head of the National Association of Evangelicals and the head of a church of 14,000 in Colorado Springs. He has close ties to Focus on the Family, the people who, way back, sponsored Amendment 2 in Colorado which aimed to make it not illegal to deny housing, jobs, etc to someone due to their sexual orientation(though that law was passed, it was later overturned by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional). Haggard has been an ardent supporter of the anti-gay marriage amendment in Colorado.
I feel kind of sorry for you guys here because I know even though I disagree with a lot of what you say, at least your hearts are usually in the right place. These things seem to keep happening to the Christian leadership, and I'm sure it must hurt. On the other hand I think that doing drugs or not, this guy's crusades against gays are despicable. If the allegations turn out to be true, I will be glad to see another hypocrite exposed. If they turn out to be false of course this will be an even bigger mess. So I'm conflicted.
|
|
|
Post by luketentwo on Nov 3, 2006 13:31:09 GMT -5
Well...*sigh* As it turns out, Mr. Haggard has confessed to some of the allegations. Which allegations he has confessed to is yet unknown to the general public. We've all heard the saying; with great power comes great responsibility. The same goes with leadership/position. Anyone in an authoritative and leadership position has the potential to really HELP alot of folks...or HURT alot of folks. To the Christians: We can either fuel the fire of the Enemy's onslaught on this generation by focusing on the scandal and letting it distract the Body of Christ for couple years... Or we can address this issue as concisely and sincerely as possible when we need to, making sure we check our own hearts for bitterness, spite and malice. Like I say to Christian college students almost every day when they see OAO on campus: don't get involved with "Bash the Preacher" conversations, forget about the preacher and go straight for the Gospel! Let's not be distracted from our true goal: winning souls! To Those Who Do Not Believe Yet:I understand what a public person's failure can do to one's opinion on what they are representing - especially when they are representing Jesus Christ; the epitome of purity, holiness, and righteousness. Please, do your best to not let one man's sin taint your view and opinion of all Christians - whoever it may be. I encourage you to see what the Bible does have to say about sin and it's consequences, and repentance and forgiveness. Well said, Brother.
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Nov 3, 2006 14:52:18 GMT -5
Jeffery:
Christians need to be prepared to answer Biblically to all who might ask. God can turn this to good, in that people are talking about the things of God. We might get a chance to tell a person that even Pastor's can stumble, and even dare I say backslide and fall away from Christ. We can explain that if he sinned willingly, and then lied, and even now admits to getting drugs, but never took them (I have heard that before, like I never inhaled) that he until repenting, must be thrown out of the fellowship for the destruction of his flesh, that he might yet still be saved (if he repents). I also might like to get a massage, but do not do so unless it is from my own wife. We are to put away all appearance of evil, and not give place to the devil. You are right that we all (believers) should realize how falling is possible and check our own lives and see where we are. Do we have any "little sins" that we toy with, thinking we have the under foot? Do not be deceived (James 1:12-16) they will tear you down, and can still send you to hell.
The handling of this, after the fact, is very important and can in fact be a spring board to witness and answer questions, not a distraction to winning souls. But face it, we will have to address this issue when we witness, because it is going to come up repeatedly.
There is a huge difference between "bash the Preacher" and throw the sinner out of the church so he might repent. This is the same guy that came along side Rick Warren on the global warming issue, seemingly forgetting that God controls the weather.
I don't want those who don't believe yet to see us too willing to sweep these types of issues under the table either, lest they think we are covering up the matter.
Jack
|
|
|
Post by Jeffrey Olver on Nov 3, 2006 16:11:55 GMT -5
What I meant by "bash the preacher" was it won't be helpful at all to get involved in conversations with unbelievers and all you do is talk bad about him. Granted, there's no denying the facts, and there's no harm in discussing the situation...but I firmly believe there's nothing beneficial about tearing the man apart just for the fun of it, or because you've got an axe to grind. That's what I meant.
And I wholeheartedly agree that as Christians we must be willing and ready to discuss this issues with any unbelievers who may ask...And you're right it's a fantastic springboard into discussion of the Gospel, especially sin and repentance.
I think we agree, Jack...you just kind of went into detail with what I said. heh.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 3, 2006 16:57:33 GMT -5
Very very sad news.....
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Nov 3, 2006 20:14:55 GMT -5
My prayers are certainly with this man and even more so with his family.
This isn't a bash session, but I saw him on the news a few minutes ago, and he is now saying that he contacted the person to get meth, but didn't use it. He also said that he knew that man making the claims because he called him to get a massage....yesterday he said that he had no idea who he was.
He doesn't appear to be honest with what he is saying now. That is the saddest part to me. I think most would be more than willing to forgive and help him if he would come clean.
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Nov 3, 2006 21:20:58 GMT -5
I agree Tony, his changing of his story will likely make many not trust a word he says. His integrity is what I am sad about. He knew that things were going on, and boldly denied knowing what was going on. I have had a member close to the family that was on Meth. One huge sign of the drug is denial. Others are inhanced sexual desires and a feeling as if you are invinceable.
We too have his wife and family and church in prayer, and have asked God to deal with him unless him comes clean.
Jack
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Nov 3, 2006 22:34:13 GMT -5
It looks like both Haggard and the accuser, Mike Jones, have failed a lie detector test...so who knows?
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Nov 4, 2006 12:00:28 GMT -5
I know Ted Haggard is/was John Bevere's pastor.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Nov 4, 2006 22:06:09 GMT -5
Too bad Jesse isnt dealing drugs any more, as maybe he could find a new custoimer int his guy.
Sorry people, but the more that seems to be unfolding, the more this guy seems to be an absolure scumbag using God for his own personal game and playing a masquerade.
Your religoion has had so many black eyes over the centuries, by people like this, it is a wonder it has survived at all.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Nov 4, 2006 23:35:02 GMT -5
Well, I hate to say this, but it looks like things are getting worse and worse for Ted, or should I say "Art." Check out this new CNN Article. His Church has investigated him and decided to totally dismiss permanently. There is a new video of his accuser as well. The link for it is right above the section titled, "Unclear Polygraph Test."
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 4, 2006 23:57:29 GMT -5
His Church has now fired him officially, claiming that it is undeniable to them that Ted has be sexually immoral.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Nov 5, 2006 1:05:27 GMT -5
I do find it interesting that nobody is saying:
"We'll, he's only human" "Nobodys perfect" "He couldn't help it" "everyone sins" etc etc. All of the worlds lame excuses to justify their own sin, they would never use to justify the sins of a preacher. Why? Because they know it's simply not right.
Even though I believe there is never an excuse to sin, because sin is always avoidable, I am terribly grieved at this entire situation. My heart breaks for Ted and for all those affected by this tragic reality.
I met Ted once at TBN and we talked about open air preaching. He knew of Holy Hubert and his book "bless your dirty heart". I do hope and pray that Ted has truly already repented, as he claims, regarding the drugs. And that the sexual accusations are not true, though the board of his own church is now saying it is.
I pray that Ted be reconciled back to God just as King David and the Apostle Peter were.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Nov 5, 2006 7:45:46 GMT -5
1. Who or what is Holy Hubert?
2.I am also surprised and find myself feeling peculiar to agree with one of the statements jesse made on they have not plopped the "he is only human" line on you, which all of the politicians and ministers use whenever they are caught in situations like this. The problem I have with this is the very fact these people sey themselves up as above the rest of us people, talk down to us and carry a definate ruling class mentality about themselves that makes it even more hustified when theyc rash and burn. On the other hand, however, there is a common conception that people in leadership capacity should behave "better" (Not in the superior sense, but in the more morally sound sense) rhen the rest oif us and I believe this should be true. After all, that is part of the proce tag of leadership. You rrise above the temptations and basic vices of the common mnan, so to speak, but in doing so you do not flaunt it like a pharasee.
3. As a worldy perosn it doesn;'t bother me if the guy wants to be a closet queen or if he was using drugs. I could care less. What bothers me is as a vocal Christian standing in opposition to such things, he is a lying hypocrite and this IS what boithers me. the church is full of such people and one reason why i hate it. Yeah, yeah, we can go back to the argument of "he is NOT a true Christian" and that again, I can give you. The thing I deplore though, is the constant stream of hypocrites your religion produces and how sadly, none of the "true Christians" resally spot these people until too late and the whole world sees them for what theya re. Guys like this pastor (I never heard of him until a few days ago, but have seen countless others like him) screwed youa nd your religion more than he screwed me.
Amnd I do feels omewhat sorry for the people who were taken in by him.
The greatest enemy to your religion is not someone like me, but someone like this and the many others out there who are like him.
Again quoting Gahndi, "I love your Jesus Christ. I do not love your christians. Your christians are so unlike your Jesus Christ)
Don;t worry abouth im, Jesse, or pray for him as he will survive alright. After all, he and his "friend" can always take over your old business.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Nov 5, 2006 8:43:42 GMT -5
I do find it interesting that nobody is saying: "We'll, he's only human" "Nobodys perfect" "He couldn't help it" "everyone sins" etc etc. All of the worlds lame excuses to justify their own sin, they would never use to justify the sins of a preacher. Why? Because they know it's simply not right. Not that it matters, but if you watch the new video of his accuser, his accuser actually says, that nobody is perfect and that we all make mistakes. If he really means that, then why did he come out with the info?!
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Nov 5, 2006 17:57:16 GMT -5
So who knows?
The Lord knew all along, and now Haggard confesses to being a deceiver and liar. This shows how hard it is to tell for sure a man's heart. He was so good at deception, that the NEA even made him President, and built a church of 14,000 followers, all while living in the hypocrisy of a "dark side" that he says he struggled with his whole adult life.
It is called lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life (selfishness).
I know when I had an issue in my life in 2001 (March) as I had given myself to Christ, that seemed to be calling me back to the world, I stumbled on it it twice, then felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to either make a choice for the world or God. I fell on my face and asked for forgiveness, and deliverance from it. I so wanted to be delivered because I hated my sin and didn't want to embarrass the Lord or lead others to stumble.
I asked God to either take it from me, or kill me. I was very serious, and still would rather die than lead others into stumbling and not receiveing the only chance they have to reconcil with God, and be forgiven of their sins.
I morn for the Lord who had to watch one who so many looked to as a great Christian leader, when He knew what a wolf in sheeps clothes he was, and a hypocrite.
I am thankful he has confessed, and now now undergo a process of reconciliation with the Lord first, his family, and the body at large.
This is truly a sad day for Christianity, but should cause us to pause and examine our lives and get help with sin of any kind that we may still cling to, not in our flesh over the flesh: but truly give our all to God and submit totally everything of our lives to Him.
May God have mercy on Mr. Haggard, and all who will humble themselves before the Holy God of the universe. Beware when you think you stand, lest ye fall!
Jack
|
|
|
Post by Doc H on Nov 5, 2006 18:17:52 GMT -5
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1Cor10:12)
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1Peter5:8)
Let this incident be a warning to ALL of us who are working for the Lord.
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Nov 5, 2006 20:51:16 GMT -5
My first thought I had about this, when I heard about on Friday, was 'this just goes to show that the devil will do anything and everything he can to bring down someone who is having an effect for God's kingdom'.
Christians (those following Jesus): I admonish you to stay focused on Jesus FIRST and beware of getting caught up in this. To say or believe this couldn't or shouldn't happen would be to believe the devil and our own sin natures are not real. We are at war and never forget that. I agree with Jack and DocH and any others that have admonished and warned us to be extremely careful lest we also fall. To think it can't happen is the first step to landing flat on your face.
To imply that this takes away from the TRUTH of Christianity is to make God to be something very small. Does this undermine who Jesus is? who God is? No. It simply highlights the fact that even though the very thing they offer (eternal life) to the repentant can be (by choice) given back by turning your back on Him. God is still sovereign and will always be. The fact remains that even when and if we stumble and fall away in sin He is still in control regardless of what it may look like. This kind of thing absolutely cuts at God heart and grieves Him beyond how any words might try to give service. God created us with a will to choose Him freely so that our being with Him would mean everything. Yes we mean that much to God. Look at what he did for us some 2000 years ago. God is a God of restoring though. This is a violent world we live in so we must stay the course and remain with our eyes on Jesus. He is the beginning and source of our witness which is the source of winning souls, not us staying focused on winning souls but on Jesus. I believe this is what was meant. Amen.
I pray that God's will be done in this for all that are touched by this.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Nov 5, 2006 21:52:44 GMT -5
Darc, maybe it is just me, but it seems you try to turn EVERY thread into a "Christians Can Lose Their Salvation" thread. How do you know this man was ever saved in the first place? According to the accuser, he has been having homosexual sex at least once a month for the last three years along with doing drugs. For someone to be a homosexual, doesn't just happen over night. It is a depraved sin. He didn't just say one night, "Well I think I will go out and commit sodomy." Who knows where he started, but it was probably with heterosexual pornography. But for him to minister, be a leader of a 14,000 member Church, write books, and be the head of a large Christian Evangelical organization while being a homosexual on the side...I wonder if he EVER was saved in the first place! If he would have died in his sin, he definitely would have fallend into the "Lord, Lord" category of Matthew 7...
|
|
|
Post by Miles Lewis on Nov 6, 2006 3:36:44 GMT -5
I do find it interesting that nobody is saying: "We'll, he's only human" "Nobodys perfect" "He couldn't help it" "everyone sins" etc etc. All of the worlds lame excuses to justify their own sin, they would never use to justify the sins of a preacher. Why? Because they know it's simply not right. Even though I believe there is never an excuse to sin, because sin is always avoidable, I am terribly grieved at this entire situation. My heart breaks for Ted and for all those affected by this tragic reality. I met Ted once at TBN and we talked about open air preaching. He knew of Holy Hubert and his book "bless your dirty heart". I do hope and pray that Ted has truly already repented, as he claims, regarding the drugs. And that the sexual accusations are not true, though the board of his own church is now saying it is. I pray that Ted be reconciled back to God just as King David and the Apostle Peter were. Amen, I was thinking this same thing today. It is because the grace of God that brings salvation HAS appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. (Titus 2:11-12) People just know that a Christian does not do these things. Definitely a sobering warning to all to those who think they stand, take heed lest they fall. No one is above temptation. Very sad indeed.
|
|
|
Post by mahatma on Nov 6, 2006 12:37:48 GMT -5
RevK,
His accuser said that he wrestled with the problem of coming forward but that in the end Haggard's continued support for the anti-gay marriage amendment made him feel that it wasn't reasonable to stay silent, and I say good for him...it's a tough thing to say on a national stage "yep, I'm a male prostitute and I sold drugs."
As for when Haggard started "being gay" my guess would be at birth. Most likely he has always known he is gay, felt horrible guilt about it due to his upbringing, got married, had kids, tried and tried to deny who he is,m tried to submerge his feelings under crusading against what he is (which is often what turns out is happening with these preachers...the ones who rail against greed are robbing people, the ones who are so against homosexuality are gay etc). In the end it sounds though like he couldn't keep under control who he actually was.
The shame is that he put his family through this, instead of telling his family, breaking things off in a more honorable manner, and starting to live his life in a more honest way. Is there seriously a single person here who believes this guy is never going to have another male lover? Come on.
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Nov 6, 2006 12:56:06 GMT -5
Darc, maybe it is just me, but it seems you try to turn EVERY thread into a "Christians Can Lose Their Salvation" thread. How do you know this man was ever saved in the first place? According to the accuser, he has been having homosexual sex at least once a month for the last three years along with doing drugs. For someone to be a homosexual, doesn't just happen over night. It is a depraved sin. He didn't just say one night, "Well I think I will go out and commit sodomy." Who knows where he started, but it was probably with heterosexual pornography. But for him to minister, be a leader of a 14,000 member Church, write books, and be the head of a large Christian Evangelical organization while being a homosexual on the side...I wonder if he EVER was saved in the first place! If he would have died in his sin, he definitely would have fallend into the "Lord, Lord" category of Matthew 7... I understand you have to believe the way you do because of your belief in P of Calvin's 3 points or I mean 5 Points. Yes I do have to do this because it is very important Scripturally revk. You and I could go round and round about whether he was or whether he wasn't. Means nothing. The fact is the man seemed to have fruit that would say he was saved, that's how we know. Yes, you and the rest of the world are correct in that it appears he also was in sin but does that mean he was never saved. No. I do believe others here in this thread have alluded to this truth that Christians Can Lose Their Salvation as well revk. My prayer IS for him that he would repent and come back to our Father just as the Prodigal had to repent and come back into salvation. My prayer is that his wife and children and the rest of us would also do what is Scriptural and that is to forgive him. May God have mercy on him and his family and that congregation, in so much as that no more would fall away. God Bless.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Nov 6, 2006 16:05:45 GMT -5
Let me just say this Darc...I don't HAVE TO believe the way I do. I BELIEVE the way I do because it is what I find in Scripture. I knew nothing about Calvin until long after I believed the way I do. I only talk about being a "3 point Calvinist" because it helps to categorize me. People seem to be more interested in who they follow (calvin or arminius) these days then what the Bible says. I am not of Paul or Appollos or Calvin or Arminius or Wesley or Corner, but of Christ and believe what I believe because it is what the Bible says. In fact, I have NEVER read ONE of Calvin's works and never intend to. I know what the Bible says concerning these things and can understand it for myself just fine.
That's just it Darc...you will NEVER know this side of Heaven whether Haggard was ever saved before or not and I will never know either. So, let's just stick to the facts: He needs to repent and we need to forgive and pray...simple as that.
|
|