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Post by dale on Nov 15, 2006 16:41:48 GMT -5
No, I haven't rep[ented, and forgive me for being a doubter but if this minister ups and repents I sadly suspect it is because he got caught and would be the wise thing to do to try to exploir a bad situation and get back int he fold. How many times did Swaggart, for example, turn on the waterworks when caught with a whore?
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Post by mahatma on Nov 15, 2006 17:09:30 GMT -5
I'm with Dale on this one. It's hard to trust in a person's claims of a changed life when the person has proven themself to be such a proficient liar.
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 15, 2006 21:50:05 GMT -5
I'm with mahatma and dale....to a point.
If ted haggard repents then AWESOME!
However, let the man then go into hiding and serve God with hsi family; he's ruined enough lives.
He needs to step out of ANY AND ALL spotlight.
Forever.
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Post by biblethumper on Nov 15, 2006 21:51:32 GMT -5
Note what david says in Psalm 51: "renew a right spirit within me" in verse 9. Can you renew something you did not once have? Can you renew your library card, once it expires, if you don't have one; or would you just have to ask for a right spirit, not a renewal? He also asks in like manner "Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation" in verse 12. Can your restore anything that wasn't first lost? This last verse speaks clearly and directly to salvation. Before David sinned, he had a right spirit and joy of salvation in the Lord. This is not some dispensation argument, no one was ever saved apart from Christ. But David lost it and had to asked to be renew and restored. First of all, renewing a "right spirit" within me doesn't mean he lost the Spirit. One would have to read into things to get that out of it. Notice that David doesn't pray that God gives the Spirit back to him, but to renew a "right spirit" within him. Paul says to continually be filled with the Spirit. The fact that David says down in verse 11, "Do not cast me away from your presence, And do not take your Holy Spirit from me" tells me that he STILL had the Spirit. Why we he plead with God not to take something away that he still had? Also, if you read all of verse 10, you will see that he is pleading with God to purify him, which can only be done by the Spirit of God. He is pleading with God to create in him a clean heart and to renew a steadfast spirit within him. Also, notice in your Bible that the "spirit" you are referring to as him losing in verse 10 does not seem to be referring to the Holy Spirit anyway when read in context. It seems to be referring to David's spirit. It is not capitalized in my NKJV, so the translator's of the NKJV seem to think David is referring to his spirit and not the Holy Spirit as well. Also the last verse definitely DOES NOT speak clearly and directly to salvation. This is what it says: "Restore to me the JOY of your salvation..." He asks God to restore the JOY of salvation, not salvation itself. I personally don't know the answer to David's situation in light of my own theology, but David CLEARLY didn't think that he wasn't saved or that he lost his salvation... Hey! You stole my exegetical argument! lol. Good points and true points; not debateable.
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Post by jackjackson on Nov 16, 2006 1:22:16 GMT -5
Saying they are not debateable, doesn't make it so.
I still stand by what I believe the passage means. If we are truthful; each might believe they are correct because of their "prejudice" coming into it.
David feared the Lord, and I certainly believe his words in that Psalm show that he was most certainly worried about losing his salvation. He knew that he deserved too. Just like any Christian knows that they too should loose their salvation if they did such things. To not believe you should loose it, would mean you think you deserve the salvation you have.
We always deserve hell, no matter how much we walk with God, or walk away; otherwise it is no longer by grace!!!!
Jack
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 16, 2006 9:31:45 GMT -5
Jack, whether I believe I deserve my salvation or not doesn't effect what I believe the Bible says about my losing my salvation. If I believe the Bible says something, it doesn't matter how I "feel." Truth is truth no matter what! I am saved by Grace and deserve Hell! That doesn't mean I have to believe that I can lose my salvation!
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Post by luketentwo on Nov 16, 2006 12:10:04 GMT -5
Preach that Rev, I want to hear some MORE.
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 16, 2006 12:28:44 GMT -5
One more thing Jack. I agree that saying something isn't debateable doesn't make it so. BUT, I believe that my interpretation of that Scripture is correct and that it CAN'T be interpreted ANY OTHER WAY. I agree that we all have presuppositions when we come to texts (losing your salvation, not losing your salvation, etc.), BUT how do you see that in the response I gave about Psalm 51 and David. I really don't see how it can be interpreted ANY OTHER WAY. If I am wrong, please correct me. However, don't just dismiss my response as "prejudice" if it is the correct intrepretation of the Scripture or just because you don't like the correct interpretation of the Scripture. I fear God as well, but that doesn't mean that I fear that He will take away the salvation he has given me by Grace through Repentant Faith.
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Post by dale on Nov 16, 2006 13:10:11 GMT -5
If you can lose your salvation than your God is the typical Indian giver who gives and wants his gift back.
I am with Cervvy on this one. Some free gift!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by luketentwo on Nov 16, 2006 13:11:19 GMT -5
The trouble with the King David situation is many who believe in once saved always saved use David as an example for their cause. Note what david says in Psalm 51: "renew a right spirit within me" in verse 9. Can you renew something you did not once have? Can you renew your library card, once it expires, if you don't have one; or would you just have to ask for a right spirit, not a renewal? He also asks in like manner "Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation" in verse 12. Can your restore anything that wasn't first lost? This last verse speaks clearly and directly to salvation. Before David sinned, he had a right spirit and joy of salvation in the Lord. This is not some dispensation argument, no one was ever saved apart from Christ. But David lost it and had to asked to be renew and restored. Looking to others in scriptures is very important, otherwise Paul's warning to us in Romans 11 wouldn't make sense, nor Paul's warnings about widows loosing their salvation in 1 Tim. 5:11-14, or Alexander and Hymmenaeus in 1 Tim 19-20; or warnings about Demas. The Bible names names!!!! Jack Brother Jack, I cannot find any 1 Tim 19-20. What are you refering to? thx!
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Post by jackjackson on Nov 16, 2006 18:02:58 GMT -5
OOPS! Try 1 Timothy 1:19-20.
Rev K, you seem to take these debates way too personal. What I am saying is that our conscience that is given us by God, bears witness with the law; is the second witness to every one of our crimes against God; and is where the Holy Spirit convicts us.
It is our Spirit bearing witness with ours that is supposed to let us know we are His. That is not just a feeling, it is His Spirit bearing witness.
I have met people who once had that and now deep into wilfull sins, do not have that anymore.
That is one reason I wrote "Presumption of Grace" over two years ago. I felt, based on discussions with many at our outreaches that they were trusting: a little prayer; relying on a particular verse in the Bible; relying on the fact a Pastor or parent told them they were saved; etc.......
But never really had a true knowledge that the Holy Spirit actually was bearing witness that they were saved. Scripturally, this is how we know we are saved, isn't it.
Many will be like the king in the "Emperors Clothes" not willing to have others think something is wrong with them, they, like the king, will ignore the fact they are naked, until it is too late.
Jack
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Post by Kerrigan on Nov 17, 2006 23:07:36 GMT -5
Sorry I seem to take these debates personal. I can assure that I am not. I did earlier in the discussion when I was offended by some things that you said, but have not since then. I will admit though, that I am very passionate about the truth and that sometimes can be mistaken as something else...especially when it is just words on a web page. I probably shouldn't put CAPITAL LETTERS and Exclamation Points!!! in as much as I do. Anyway, I am definitely in agreement with you that many people have false assurance...that is for sure. I am just in disagreement as to if they ever had a reason to be assured in the first place...
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