osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 11, 2007 13:42:17 GMT -5
Well, the title says it all. A church in Texas cancelled a navy vet's funeral 24 hours before it was to take place after reading in his obituary in the local paper that he was survived by his life partner, or that he was a homosexual. Story is here: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20221295/Personally, I think this is dispicable. This man served our country with honor. He fought for the freedom of religion YOU all enjoy and the freedoms that allow members of your faith to do this. Thoughts? Comments?
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Post by Peter Fox on Aug 11, 2007 18:19:48 GMT -5
What about the freedom to disagree with his lifestyle?
What is truly "dispicable"(sic) is people who can't see the forest for the trees.
I quote a saying attributed to Voltaire:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Maybe we ought to step back and see what FREEDOM really means.
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 11, 2007 18:34:46 GMT -5
Go ahead and disagree with his lifestyle then. I don't care if you disagree, but there is a MASSIVE difference between disagreeing with his lifestyle/not supporting it and DISHONORING him by denying him a proper funeral.
Open your eyes and see this for what it really is. It's bigotry in it's most blatant form. This isn't denying you the freedom of anything. What your faith and the people of this church ARE doing is dishonoring this brave man who fought for our country valiantly, and, regardless of sexual orientation, he deserves to be honored for that, not being told "he isn't good enough for a funeral here", which is what they are saying in essence.
Have you seriously missed all those verses about "treating thy neighbor as thyself" and decency towards your fellow man?
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Post by tonyholland on Aug 11, 2007 19:44:06 GMT -5
How intolerent of you osubamey. To judge that Church for following their own lifestyle choice. Thats really hate speech and I am pretty disappointed in you.
You left out a couple of things from the article
I would say that the Church may have had just a little problem showing a tribute video with that kind of activity. I saw the families comments saying that it wasn't true. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure a Church that didn't feel comfortable holding a funeral for a homosexual person had no problem lying about the pictures that they were provided.
Paid for another site, made the video and provided food. Sounds more than fair to me.
OSU...can't have it both ways. The church made a decision based on principle. Who are you to say that the Church was wrong?
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 11, 2007 21:53:06 GMT -5
Hate speech? Are you kidding me? I see nothing that I wrote that could even be REMOTELY construed as hate speech. I never said Christians should burn at the stake for this, I never said that we should go on a cleansing purge, I said they were wrong. If telling people that they are wrong is hate speech, then everyone in this group who has ever told anyone else they were going to hell for living the life they wanted is guilty of hate speech. Yeah, that means you too, my friend.
Unless the video is released, you have no proof that either the church or the family is lying. I didn't leave that part of the article out because it would hurt my case, I left it out because it wasn't relevant. It turns into a "he said, she said" type matter. So, unless you have proof the family is lying, do not continue to disrespect them and their relatives' memory with your sarcasm. For all you know it COULD be the pastor who is lying.
Further, I have pictures up on my Facebook of me "embracing men". Does that mean that I am a homosexual? Does that mean that this church would not give me a funeral? It d**n well better not. Granted, this man is an admitted homosexual, however that shouldn't change a thing. If you don't want pictures of him kissing his life partner, fine, whatever. Immature of you, since you'd probably show pictures of a heterosexual couple kissing, but whatever. But guys with their arms around each other or thrown over each other's shoulders... I have pictures like that. Almost every guy I know does.
Since you opened the "he said, she said" avenue, let's look at some stuff you just happened to leave out.
I know the priest said that they didn't know until the day before. Yeah, yeah. A sister who just lost her brother would certainly go to the trouble of lying about that just to get some publicity.
It doesn't matter what their offer was. They still refused to have the funeral there solely because he was a homosexual, and they canceled it only 24 hours before the service was to take place. How would you feel if a church called you up 24 hours before your wedding and said, "Oops, sorry, we can't host your wedding. But here, we'll pay for another church on another date, film your wedding for you, and make the food for all the guests." Sorry, that just doesn't cut it. Not for an occasion as important as a wedding. Not for an occasion as important as a funeral.
Finally, how would you feel if someone in your family died and the church they were supposed to have the service at called 24 hours before it started and said you couldn't have the service there because your relative was a Christian. You'd immediately cry discrimination.
Hello, Pot. This is Kettle. You're both black.
I can say the church is wrong based on the following quote, which I'll leave you with. A little bit of scripture from your most precious holy book.
Luke 6:31 "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
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Post by Miles Lewis on Aug 11, 2007 23:19:10 GMT -5
Classic. Good one Tony.
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 12, 2007 1:08:14 GMT -5
Classic. Good one Tony. You're not actually serious, are you Miles? Come on, I thought you had better taste than that. What I said doesn't even begin to approach hate speech, you know that.
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Post by Peter Fox on Aug 12, 2007 5:24:00 GMT -5
Classic. Good one Tony. You're not actually serious, are you Miles? Come on, I thought you had better taste than that. What I said doesn't even begin to approach hate speech, you know that. Maybe "hate speech" isn't the best phrase for it, but "intolerance" would certainly hit the mark.
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 12, 2007 9:47:28 GMT -5
You're not actually serious, are you Miles? Come on, I thought you had better taste than that. What I said doesn't even begin to approach hate speech, you know that. Maybe "hate speech" isn't the best phrase for it, but "intolerance" would certainly hit the mark. Intolerance? That's not any more intolerant than telling someone we won't hold your funeral because you're a homosexual. Read my earlier posts. Hello pot, meet kettle. You're both black.
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Post by tonyholland on Aug 12, 2007 14:04:45 GMT -5
You may have missed my sarcasm OSU---I know full and good well what you said wasnt hate speech any more than us preaching against homosexuality (In a proper manner) is hate speech......but we hear all the time that it is.
But, yes,,,,you are being intolerant. You are being intolerent of the Church being intolerent. I guess using this path of thinking, it's ok for the Church to do what it did because it is ok to be intolerent. Right?
I think the difference is.....as Christians, we have no problem with being intolerant of lifestyles that are sinful. Calling someone intolerant in today's society is pretty much as bad as calling a person a Nazi. Bottom line is this....the Church had every right to reject the wedding and was being very nice by paying for another site, finishing the video, and taking care of the food for the service.
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 12, 2007 19:47:23 GMT -5
You may have missed my sarcasm OSU---I know full and good well what you said wasnt hate speech any more than us preaching against homosexuality (In a proper manner) is hate speech......but we hear all the time that it is. But, yes,,,,you are being intolerant. You are being intolerent of the Church being intolerent. I guess using this path of thinking, it's ok for the Church to do what it did because it is ok to be intolerent. Right? I think the difference is.....as Christians, we have no problem with being intolerant of lifestyles that are sinful. Calling someone intolerant in today's society is pretty much as bad as calling a person a Nazi. Bottom line is this....the Church had every right to reject the wedding and was being very nice by paying for another site, finishing the video, and taking care of the food for the service. Did I ever say being intolerant was a good thing, or the right thing? No, I didn't. In fact, I said just the opposite. I said it was wrong. Intolerance has no place in our global society today, not with individual people, not with religion, not with government, nowhere. Also, I contest that I am being intolerant. I am saying that I believe that what happened was wrong. But am I saying the Church can't do it? No, I'm saying that I feel that they shouldn't. There is a massive, massive difference. The church, on the other hand, has been intolerant for centuries, often of people of the same faith, but also those of others. Saying someone can't be a homosexual (when it is perfectly natural) or can't be Muslim, or can't be whatever IS intolerance. Further, it is sinful to YOU. And who are you to say that you can say who is right or wrong? Who are you to say that a book says that you are right and others are wrong? Who are you to say that YOUR God is right and everyone else's are wrong? Just because you disagree with the lifestyle does not automatically make it wrong. Finally, a main point to all of this is that the church, supposedly an honorable institution, went back on it's word. If they had refused the man the funeral to begin with, fine. Wouldn't be right, but whatever. But to go back on your word 24 hours before it is to happen... no, that's not right at all. That's low, callous, and very un-churchlike.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 12, 2007 22:08:21 GMT -5
OSU, it is quite hypocritical of this service member that would attend a Christian church and never confess and forsake his sin. If he attended this church he would hear messages of repentance toward God and away from sin; homosex, lying, fornication, idolatry, etc. Unfortunately, the real tragedy is that he may have died in his sin and now is in hell in torment. We don't say these things lightly, we love people enough to tell them what our Master said,"Repent and believe the gospel." All Christians were once in the same condition before God, guilty as sin. Only the blood of Jesus cleanseth us of our sin.
You say that this event was wrong. But how do you judge that? Why is your standard of morality the correct one? Who died and made you king? Ah, but I know the One who is King, and he has a standard of perfection that no human meets. His morality is perfection and you and I don't meet them. He is the same One who will judge this global society you so smugly speak of. That somehow, you can fix all the wickedness of men in this world. The problem is that you and other judgmental selfish people like yourself will not rightly judge your own hearts. That is why you wrongly think you are good when you are not. I don't think I am better than you or any other sinner, I was the same, but am now made an adopted son of God by the blood of my Saviour.
You, OSU, are without excuse, you still have an oppurtunity to stop your rebellion toward God and receive His mercy. I would encourage you to do that now.
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osubamey
Junior Member
WTOP 10 Oswego - News Director
Posts: 62
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Post by osubamey on Aug 12, 2007 22:51:45 GMT -5
John, I'd ask that you read the article next time before replying. The man did not go to the church. The church offered to hold the funeral there because the man's brother is a janitor for the church.
Further, please save your preaching. I am living my life the way I have chosen to live it. Your faith is not proof for me that your God is the "right" God. I have chosen this path and I will accept whatever consequences lay ahead. I don't believe myself to be "lost" or "fallen" or "in need of repentance", so I would appreciate it if you did not refer to me and my life as if you know what is better for me that I do. Thanks.
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Post by John McGlone on Aug 13, 2007 2:48:33 GMT -5
Ummm...I guess my reading was a bit skewd there. I missed the brother as a janitor para. I presumed he was a church attender, not a member, and was not known there. That happens alot you know.
I will continue to preach the good news that Christ will save you until you repent or one of us dies. I must do that or I don't care a bit about you, even tho I don't know you. You have nominated yourself as god, but a piece of dust has no authority or power. Even, if you delude yourself unto eternal death....Repent!
It is not that I know what is best for you, but God does.
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Post by tonyholland on Aug 13, 2007 8:09:30 GMT -5
Very well then, we say the same thing. No one says that a person can't be a homosexual, just that they shouldn't and that there is a consequence for doing so. Using your logic, you would agree that Christianity isn't intolerant.
No, either what I am saying is the truth or it isn't. I believe that the Bible is true so that is where my moral understanding comes from. Either I am wrong, or you are wrong, or we are both wrong, but we can't hold conflicting opinion and say, "What is right to you, is ok for you." It's either truth, or it is not.
My understanding is that the Church cancelled the service as soon as they found out, paid for another site to hold the service, paid for the food for the service, and even completed the tribute video for the family. I'm going to take the Church's word that they aren't just making all of this up. Why would they originally agree to do the service and then cancel it if they knew all along? Doesn't make any sense.
Please stop trying to restrict John's free speech rights. Again, this is pretty intolerent of you.
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