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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 13, 2006 9:32:18 GMT -5
(Hey guys, I received this email from a student at the Toronto University. I wanted to share it with you guys and get your feedback on it. What would a good, scripturally biblical response be? Please share your thoughts. I thought doing this could be a good excercise for the boards.) "Dear Jesse, I hope you can recall who I am. I am the "Heckler" from your visit at the University of Toronto on the 11th of January. First off, I am offended that I was labeled a Heckler on the "Open Air Outreach" website. However, through the divine grace of Jesus Christ, I forgive you. Now to clarify some thoughts I think you need to hear: 1. I believe that what you are doing is purely the will of God. 2. I believe that you are a true servant of Christ and will have eternal life in his name. On the other hand , I want to quote the following: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." --Ephesians 2: 8-9 Now if you recall properly, I mentioned that I was once an atheist. Meaning I didn't acknowledge God as true, but false. However, through being more open minded and through the divine gift of understanding, I was able to 'spatially minded' conceive God; through educating myself through the Bible, by going to Church regularly and sharing my ideas about God to others of any person of any diversity (Jew, Homosexual, Muslim,, Hindu, Agnostic ..etc). When I began preaching what I knew, I was always, like yourself, conflicted with opposition. Now to re-direct to you what I am trying to say before I get you confused: Believe that Jesus is in any person on this earth, he has been before he came to earth and he will be forever. For Jesus is God and God is everything that exists. God is in words, God is in our minds, our souls, in our bodies, in our deeds, in our atmosphere...basically everywhere. Therefore, God is exposed through everything, our hair, our voices, our cell phones, our books, our theories of evolution, our school work, our food...etc. "For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." - 1 Corinthians 3:9 So basically this is what I want to say, you can preach and preach...and yes you are doing that of God's will, like I stated above, but every single man, preacher or not, is part of the building. Now to make you realize something with the following pictures I re-illustrated. I was neither in agreement nor disagreement with you yesterday, I was trying my best to be neutral and fair for as long as possible. To your view point, I was being a heckler, to the girl that was arguing with you, I was a friend.....being the opposite for you both and being neutral for my self. Why do I do this? Because I let God speak through me and God is neutral and non-conflicting. Get my point? Now the other picture will explain how my method of seeing things works. As I was standing listening to you, I was asked by a guy some questions of what my beliefs were. I told him this: "I am a man of Jesus as much as you are also" He replied: "But I don't believe in God, I am an atheist" After that, I began very simply, just like a mustard seed, began to explain Jesus as God and God as everything and everyone. I started small, then went big. Ultimately, I convinced the true essence of God and with his friend, whom also was an atheist, began to acknowledge that there was a God and that they now see him in a way like they never seen him before. Anyhow, I think that's enough said for now, reply with an open mind and speak through Christ. Just incase you are curious to know what I do or what religion I am. I am a chemical engineering student (2nd yr) I was baptized an Orthodox Christian. I am a member of Mensa (Mensa.org). I am 21 years old. God bless you Jesse. .... PS: this e-mail is not made to change you in anyway, but to make you think for your own purpose in life." Here is a picture he sent me:
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 13, 2006 9:35:53 GMT -5
My question would be neutral in what? Neutral in the battle between good and evil? Neutral in the battle for lost souls? Neutral in what is right and what is wrong?
"God is angry with the wicked every day" Ps 7:11
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 13, 2006 10:19:58 GMT -5
This guy sounds like a universalist to me or something similar.
That quote seems to be the majority of his theology.
"Believe that Jesus is in any person on this earth, he has been before he came to earth and he will be forever." I would wonder if he meant any as in anyone who is born again or if he really many every person.. But even then Jesus was not in me untill I was born again.
God is not everything that exists. The Devil is real. God is not the devil. You are real. You are not God. God is not 'in' a lot of things. He is not in fornication, lying, ect. He is not a tree..
This guy sounds like he doesn't believe God is a "person." Or a distinct personality. He seems to be one that would say all "things" are God, whether good or bad.
Possibly a mix of hinduism with "Christian" terms.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 13, 2006 11:05:59 GMT -5
I didn't read him mentioning anything about eternity...Heaven and Hell, but I suppose if he did that he would be a universalist, believing that all are on their way to Heaven. He sounds very much like a pantheist. He sounds like he has a "buffet" style religion. He also seems to just make stuff up, for lack of better words. He definitely does not base things on the Bible. Since he claims to be a man of Jesus, I would just quote a lot of what Jesus said...you know what I mean Jesse...Hell, Born Again, either for me or against me, etc. This guy has definitely broken the 2nd Commandment, having made a God up in his mind to suit himself...so idolatry seems to be his major problem. However, if he became a heckler when you preached the Law he is probably holding on to other sins as well.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 13, 2006 11:32:49 GMT -5
Ahh minus the hinduism part. Pantheist was the word I was looking for. Although, doesn't hinduism believes that all "have god in them?"
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 13, 2006 12:55:29 GMT -5
Now, I could be wrong but in Hinduism, they don't necessarily beleive that everything is god, but they do have freedom to make anything they want into a god. Last count I think they had around 400 million gods. They also believe in reincarnation and karma, so they are careful not to harm a caterpillar because it could be their Aunt Betty or Grandpa Bob or something...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 13, 2006 14:43:23 GMT -5
I must be getting them mixed up with the new age movement or who ever says everyone has their own "God Consciousness" or something to that effect. Oh well... they are all the same- lies.
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 14:56:53 GMT -5
hello all
this is the guy talking from the picture, claiming to be 'neutral'
just to restate, im a baptized orthodox christian............however, i believe that all of u are claiming to speak of me in a negative way, when that would it self claim u are not men of god either, u all speak with ur mind and logic, but now with your soul, aka the holy spirt, which is part of the holy trinity.........i am not a universalist, nor do i really no what exactly that means, also i am not making up my own religion, for i dont believe in man-made art. i also would like to jesse to post the second picture that i sent him.........in it you can see how effective i was and not effective jesse was in claiming god.........
look my basic point of view is this:
I believe that Jesus is the ONLY way back to God. That is what all of us believe in. I have many firends whom are non-christians, but do believe in Chirst and his glory, not for the sake of religion and practice, but for the sake of understanding the concept of a 'Trade-Off"
Jesus shed his blood for all of us, not only for Christians, but for all man-kind.
I am also offended by the blind-claim and name calling on this site....... where does Hinduism come into play in my message?
For all of u reading this, look carefully at this world and at yourself, and ask if you are carrying his cross? I know I am trying to all the time and that means I am not here on earth to be sung for my popularity, making money, or making others feel less superior than I.
All I am on earth for is to shed His glory, and to make people of all walks to realize that He came for them all, but to let go of logic and simple concept of literal reading of the Bible, I am to use my mind, body and soul to love and share Jesus.
And to anyone, who claims I am forming my own religion, ask yourself this: Is their anyone on this earth who claimed being perfect in Christ though following a religion, even Christianity?
For God so loved the world, that he gave me freewill to come on this site and tell you all how I fell about him.
And God so loved the world, that he will let you respond to my posting in anyway you like.
Thank you all,
Christ is in our midst.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 13, 2006 15:06:31 GMT -5
Rom,
"Be ye therefore PERFECT even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 Now go and sin no more. John 8:14
Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible
P.S. I mean you!
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 13, 2006 15:17:59 GMT -5
Rom, no offense man, but whatever you are talking about is not Christianity and is NOT the One True God. Anyone can throw around the name of Jesus and say they are following Him. But their must be a true test as to whether we are really following Him or not...otherwise we would never know who Christ's true followers are and who aren't. People have different understandings and views of God and CHrist all the time. But their is only One Christ and One God. The question is how do we know who He is and what He is like? The answer is from the Bible. God's Holy Word. It is infallible and inerrant. The reason I said that you are following a different god (lower case "g") is because the god that you seem to be describing is not the God of the Bible. And since the God of the BIble is the only God that really exists, your god doesn't exist. I made up a god in mind before I became a Christian, but then I saw myself in light of my sins. I saw that I need to repent of my sins and put my faith in Jesus Christ. To see if you really are a Christian or not, take this little test: www.needgod.com/ and see how you do. 2 Corinthians 13:5: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2013:5&version=49 Also, go read the book of 1 John and the book of James in the Bible. God Bless...
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 16:25:56 GMT -5
"Rom, no offense man"
I am offended, so if you mean no offence, then please re-state your reply.
Thanks
God Bless
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 13, 2006 16:49:41 GMT -5
Rom, well the Bible says that the Gospel truth will be offensive to those who aren't saved. It definitely wasn't my goal to offend you, but if you got offended in the process of me telling you the truth, then there is nothing I can do. If you want, I can just lie to you instead and not offend you...
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 13, 2006 16:49:54 GMT -5
Rom,
Of course you're offended. The truth does that to people who don't want to hear it. Rev K is right in pointing out that you don't base your beliefs on Scripture. You clearly have made up your own god and as such you are an idolater. Your baptism is irrelevant. Unfortunately you have been immersed into the spirit of the world which sees tolerance as the greatest virtue. Christianity is exclusive. What you believe is irrelevant. God never asks you what you believe. He tells you the truth and you choose to believe or reject it. You justify yourself to your own peril.
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 13, 2006 17:40:11 GMT -5
Open rebuke is better than secret love. Proverbs 27:5
As many as I love I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent. Revelation 3:19 (Quote from Jesus Christ the most loving man who ever walked the face of the earth)
Great peace have they which love thy law; and nothing shall offend them. Psalm 119:165
If you were a Christian you would love God's law and would not be offended if someone shows you how you are breaking it.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 13, 2006 18:17:01 GMT -5
I do apologize for mentioning Hinduism. You clearly stated that "God is everything that exists." That is a complete lie from what I see in scripture. Which to me sounds like what I've heard from several "new agers. ' Do you have any "proof" of this claim?
I am glad that you did come to the site. That way you can defend you stance.
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 18:45:33 GMT -5
ok, now i appriciate all your claims and deep faith comments, and dont worry, i believe you will all go to heaven.
first off, i never denied Christ, and if that ever came across anyone's mind, i hope and pray you can forget it.
now another thing i must mention is this, dont think that making me feel like i am not a good man will get you a one way ticket to heaven. for Christ warned us of hypocrisy!
"Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful from yielding fruit"
-Jeremiah 17: 7-8
my ultimate claim, based on this quote is this: i am just trying to yield fruit. to some people, my fruit is "good", to others my fruit is "bad".....this quote never claimed what type of fruit to produce
"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."
-Proverb 4:7
None of you have any depth of understanding me based on a few things: you don't have enough wisdom...........why i say this??? i say that because no one ever assumed that maybe this guy might be differently situated geographically..... i can claim that i live in the most diverse city in the world, Toronto (stated by the UN). unlike most of you americans or non-torontonians, i have a full dose of diversity every single day, i see hindus, buddists, muslims, bi-sexuals, transexuals, homosexuals, atheist, prosetutes, sinners, christians of all types, Jews, agnostics, etc etc etc etc sometimes all in the same hour (my lectures).......... and what can i say to all that? well beside the fact that toronto is by capita the most peaceful city on this earth, everyone is basically the same and treat everyone the same way they would wanted to be treated.
"Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folloy, as far as light excelleth darkness" -Ecclesiastes 2:13
anyhow, we are all doing God's work, whether you are part of this world in all of your views or in mine, they are all valid to God in the end:
"But unto everyone of us is give grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ" -Ephesians 4:7
Also, based on the fact that i feel rebuked: "Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you"
-Luke 6: 27-28
And i have one more claim to make:
"In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me."
Psalm 56:11
Christ is in our midst
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 19:49:22 GMT -5
QUOTED FROM ABOVE
"I do apologize for mentioning Hinduism. You clearly stated that "God is everything that exists." That is a complete lie from what I see in scripture. Which to me sounds like what I've heard from several "new agers. ' Do you have any "proof" of this claim?
I am glad that you did come to the site. That way you can defend you stance. " " well, do you have any proof that God is not everything?
"The earth is the LORD's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein."
--Psalm 24:1
so let me repeat that "the fullness thereof" <--- aka everything and everyone
"dwell therein" <---- all deeds (good or bad) and thoughts, etc....
thanks and i await all responses (both negative and positive)
my goal is to do this, be neutral, or bringing people back to God. For God is not the neutral you might think of as "balanced scale or whatever" but as in non-arguable
we shouldnt be claiming God by aruging and being good bible quoters (which i have been...lol)
the way to see God is like this
I want anyone who reads this to do the following:
1. Go to a mirror
2. Touch the mirror with your finger
3. Try to see if you can physically touch your reflection. [You will note that it is physically impossible to touch your own reflection. (there will always be a gap)]
Now think of God as the 'Gap'
.......I will continue this later.............
In the mean while, tell you think what the Gap represents? In terms of faith or space...etc
have fun
-rom
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 13, 2006 20:24:45 GMT -5
Rom,
You said you never denied Christ, but God says, "They profess that they know God but in works they deny Him being abominable, disobedient and unto every good work reprobate" Titus 1:16
You don't deny God by your mouth but by your lifestyle. Wrong lifestyle comes from wrong believing. By the things you say you are believing wrong about God. That is idolatry.
Neutral fruit is impossible. You are not neutral. You are either for God or an enemy of God (Romans 5:10, 8:7, John 3:19-20, 7:7, 15:25, James 4:4). A bad tree cannot produce good fruit and a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit (Matthew 7:17-18). You either love God supremely or yourself. You have a false image of who God is so therefore you are not living to glorify God but living to please yourself. You love yourself supremely and not God. Therefore your fruit is corrupt.
I live in Miami so it is very diverse here also and I do not believe the way you do so that is no excuse. We have many different groups of Hispanics, Haitians, African Americans, etc. We have signs in English, Spanish, and Creole.
You quoted about loving your enemies. You are an enemy of God (even though you may think you are not), and we are told by God to love our enemies, He has given us a heart to love our enemies, and we love you so we rebuke you (see again Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6, and Proverbs 27:5).
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 20:46:25 GMT -5
Dear Brother Micah and to whomever reads this,
I don't know what you are trying to tell me, but it seems that you have concluded that my deeds are corrupt.
First off, my life is not corrupt because I accepted Christ as the only way to heaven, (I was born again) in both my actions and in my claims.
I feel like you are hiding some of your own sins by pointing out my own!
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed"
- James 1:25
There you go in plain english. Act in law of balance and be neutral for the balance is in the neutral and seeing is not the way to act upon truth. The symbol for law concieved by brilliant people is the ever famous lady, holding a balanced scale and wearing a blindfold. Foreven Jesse was a victim of balance and if he didn't go through the process of law and justice, aka being affected by natural law of balance (bad deeds = time in jail) ......he wouldn't have been born again if he didn't go through that process of justice. If Christ didn't die on the cross for us, what else could he have traded for our sins?
For even our Christ was in the game of balance, he weighed out our sins for his perfection on earth.
Let me know what you think
-Rom
Christ is in our midst, he is and ever shall be!
Stop telling me I believe in Idols.....you are just throwing claims with no defense WE ARE ALL HYPOCRITS
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 13, 2006 21:11:52 GMT -5
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 21:23:47 GMT -5
how are u confused?
maybe you are confused of opposition?
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 13, 2006 21:27:33 GMT -5
Rom,
I was simply joking. I had a hard time understanding your sentence because the punctuation is missing.
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Post by Rom on Jan 13, 2006 21:29:08 GMT -5
Let me break it up for you carefully, i guess i missed some comma's (I claim to have bad grammer)
Act in law of balance (Act without opposition)
and
be neutral (Be yourself)
for the balance is in the neutral (For being yourself, means you do not oppose)
and seeing is not the way to act upon truth. (What you can see with your eyes is not what you should be feeling in your heart)
Hope that clarifies a bit
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 13, 2006 21:32:35 GMT -5
UM.....LOL.... ;D
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 13, 2006 23:36:16 GMT -5
Rom,
You need to stop living by what you feeeeeeeeeeeeeeel and begin to live by truth.
The only sin I accused you of was idolatry, but I will accuse you of being an enemy of God, living to please your self. In other words your whole life is one big sin in the sight of God. You need to repent now before it's too late for you.
You are the hypocrite. You are deceived. "Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves" James 1:22
You hear the Word but do not obey it, claim everyone is hypocrites because you are a hypocrite. You are deceived. You are full of pride. You are an idolater. You may not think so but your God is the devil.
REPENT OF YOUR SINS NOW BEFORE YOU END UP IN HELL FIRE FOREVER!!!!!!
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Post by Travis M Chapman on Jan 14, 2006 0:03:43 GMT -5
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jan 14, 2006 6:55:09 GMT -5
Yeah but don't you think that that is too logical...? I think you should let go of that, obey the true Gospel which is exclusive and a simple concept. Here is something a friend of mine put together to see if someone has the true Jesus or not. I know it is long, but is simply uses the scriptures and has the references to back it up. I am sure you are man of reason and one who actually thinks. This can be rare in our day and age. I commend you for that. From what I see, you use scripture to defend your point, therefore I will conclude that you believe that the Bible has value... a truth value. Do you love the truth? Certainly you must! Or else why would you want others to believe something you know to be false. Truth is exclusive. Can I ask you a few simple questions? Do you feel that you have the truth? If you have truth and someone completely rejects your ideas, does that make them incorrect in their belief? Where do you get your information from? How do you know that to be true? Lastly, what if you are wrong? I also appreciate you coming on here and discussing what you believe. Contending earnesty, Miles
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 14, 2006 11:13:44 GMT -5
That scripture is not saying what you are making it out to be. Here is the same verse from another version.
The earth and everything on it belong to the LORD. The world and its people belong to him.
It is saying that everything is owned by God. The people that dwell in the earth are his creation/posession.
Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
If evil does not dwell with God, then that excludes a lot of things in this world that God does not "dwell in."
Do you really believe that God dwells 'in' everthing? So is Satan "indwelled" by God?
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Post by Rom on Jan 14, 2006 16:28:28 GMT -5
Look, I really don't expect this argument to end, if we keep opposing each other with all this: "You need to stop living by what you feeeeeeeeeeeeeeel and begin to live by truth. The only sin I accused you of was idolatry, but I will accuse you of being an enemy of God, living to please your self. In other words your whole life is one big sin in the sight of God. You need to repent now before it's too late for you. " Who ever said that I was in advantage for myself, does anyone know what I do? I had a choice to come to university or to help my dad with the family business, i decided to go to university because it was the right thing to do, not the easy. I could've choosen to choose and degree program in my university, but i choose to do environmental engineering. I could choose to do civil or some other type of engineering that would make me a larger income, but i choose the unpopular type of engineering because i am a man of God and I choose something that won't benefit be materialistically, but will satisfy me in a way that is everlasting, by perserving and benefit the earth God created. Look, if I was what you thought I am, then I wouldn't have gone this far to argue what I believe in. I am looking at the same Christ all you can see, but in a very much more complex way. Think of the idea of colours. If you mix black and white, you get Grey, very simple concept.......however, if you mix all colours, both additive and suntractive, you also get grey. Meaning this: if you look at God the way all you on this message board do, then you will definately see Him for that is how a simple mind is desinged to see him (Black & White, simple). However, if you have a complicated and spacial mind, like mine, then you are naturally gonna see God also in the same way, but in a much more complicated and ingenius way (colourful and complicated) Ultimately, its not a bad thing to be smart, that's why God give's us brains, some brains come with a low IQ, and some with a high IQ... regardless, God gave us that option. That's why the Bible can be read in a very simple way, or a very complex way, either way, a person should conclude the same thing, that Jesus is the only way back to Heaven. Now I must recall for all of you on this site, there were alot of name calling and a lot of typing with out alot of thinking....im not surprised But if anyone is confused about this, then don't argue with me, because God wanted you to understand him in a very simple way, obviously not in my way: God wants us to be wise: "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." -Proverb 4:7 So just to repeat myself, I do believe in the same thing as you all, I don't make Idols for myself, I don't even use my high IQ as an IDOL, I am using it as a Gift from GOD, to understand him in a very complicated way that I am able to. And just to note why you need wisdom, when Jesse was at my university preaching, he told a Gay guy that he is wrong for being Gay. That God made AIDS to stop gay people, well last time I read the news, AIDS is all over the world, especially in Africa, were there aren't alot of Gay people. lol.........(no harsh feelings Jesse, I too say stupid things, but that was necessary to bring up, just to prove that you were not speaking perfectly when you were speaking with you mind, next time, let God speak through your soull, it always works.) anyways, i know that i am probabally gonna get some comments which will go againts me .....heck, i don't ever recall a visiting team being cheered on to win at the home court/crowd.) but i'll always defend the true Christ, the one that came for us ALL, not just the Christians or the Methodist. (One who emphasizes or insists on systematic procedure.) God bless all
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Post by Rom on Jan 14, 2006 16:56:03 GMT -5
BY THE WAY!!!! Jesse is a Great Guy, continue supporting him in everyway possible!
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