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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 18, 2006 9:54:07 GMT -5
I've got a question for discussion. Can you be too radical when evangelizing? I'm talking about signs and such. Are things like "Turn or Burn" too much? Is it even possible to do "too much?"
This thought came to me after reading a post about the sandwich board. I'm not against the sandwich board by any means... I've contemplated getting one. I'm just curious to hear everyone's thoughts.
I have notice that the more controversial it is the more attention you get, which turns to more conversations.
What think ye?
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 18, 2006 10:51:31 GMT -5
I am not against sandwich boards either...but I DO think that some can go too far when evangelizing. What I mean by that is it turns into something that it shouldn't. I actually wrote an article called, "Open Air Preaching With Gentleness And Reverance." Here is the link to it: www.pinpointevangelism.com/Open%20Air%20Preaching%20With%20Gentleness%20and%20Reverance.pdfI actually wrote it with GNN "seed sowers" in mind, but it can be applied to any Open Air Preacher
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 18, 2006 10:54:41 GMT -5
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Post by Rom on Jan 18, 2006 12:57:35 GMT -5
your limit of evangalism is set by the limit of your knowledge....you feel limited once you realized you are no longer able to respond to an opposition, therefore you give up or try harder, by first re-thinking and reading into the bible more and making thought into practice...etc
Jesus showed through his blood that you can never be limited in what you believe in.
preachparsly, you said this:
"I have notice that the more controversial it is the more attention you get, which turns to more conversations. "
so you realize that the more contraversal one gets, the more attention you will adhere. its annoying because you will cause slight irritation to another by repeated acts, not necessarly bad acts.
so what i am saying, if we dont keep annoying others about Chirst, we won't get into those 'deeply seated' sins in people's minds, for God loves the people who can act and do in limitless ways. Its tough at first, but then you can claim you are truly serving the limitless God by being limitless yourself.
let me know what you think
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 18, 2006 15:00:39 GMT -5
revk-
That is a very good article. It is very easy to be unbalanced. I think a temptation or trap OA preachers can fall into is self-righteousness, because of the persecution. When we go out there just trying to stir up people instead of preaching the word and letting the Holy Ghost stir their conscience. Then of course they do react negatively quite often. Many times we can be persecuted, not for the words' sake, but because of rudeness.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 18, 2006 15:17:27 GMT -5
Rom... you have a very different philosophy than most here. I think the reason when you first came to this site everyone jumped on you is because you seem so... (hmmm.. what's the word..) abstract?
I'm not sure if I necessarily disagree with your post, I would just have to know what you mean by limitless. You may mean simply limitless in the bounds of Christ. Or in reverence to the Bible and the moral character of God. I think the reason it may see different than what I just stated is because of the abstractness. I guess the abstractness makes me feel like you have a lot of middle eastern thought in you. I may be completely wrong, that's just what it comes off to me as.
I'm curious, how long have you been born again? And since then have you had much discipleship? Is there any certain ministries or preachers that you listen to?
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 18, 2006 16:20:20 GMT -5
Rev. K,
I just read your article. I am sure it is possible for people to go too far, have wrong motives, lift themselves up, sound self-righteous, etc. However, Jesus did call people names (I do not like unbiblical words like fag), and the Bible does use words like whore and whoremonger. Jesus also used much satire. Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal.
I think it is important to be direct and to the point. Do not speak in generalities. The people must know you mean them. This is biblical. Peter did not preach on the day of Pentecost saying "we have cruficied the Lord with wicked hands" but rather "You guys have crucified the Lord with wicked hands." He made it personal.
I do not know which preachers you are talking about. I have never seen any websites where preachers continually brag about how big the crowd was, how angry they were and how many times they have been arrested. (I am sure they exist but I have not seen them).
Speaking to people one on one is much different than preaching. Jesus handled the woman at the well with compassion because she was broken and contrite and saw the penalty and consequences of her sin (Jude 1:22-23).
Anyway I have to go for now but I think this is also a good topic to discuss. I respect you as a true brother in the Lord.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 18, 2006 16:43:15 GMT -5
The point of the article is very simple: People must see that your motive is love. I understand that Jesus and Peter and the Prophets spoke harsh words at times (and I mentioned that in my article), but look at who there audience was. It was people who claimed to be Children of God, but truly were not acting like it. We are not in a nation where all the people claim to be Children of the One True God. There are many who are blind, who have never read Scripture and certainly weren't raised under the Law of God. We shouldn't be so quick to do something just because we find someone in the Bible doing it. We must look at the circumstances, the preacher and the audience. There are preachers out there ( I will not name) that I have studied that seem to be (from an outsiders perspective) to be stirring up a crowd just to stir up a crowd. They argue and fight and at times when they use words like whores and whoremongers or homos, they don't use it to show someone their sin and point them to the cross for salvation through Repentance and Faith...they seem to do it to just put them down or call them a name. May we Never do that as Open Air Preachers. If you are talking to someone who claims to be a Child of God, then they need to be rebuked and I say Amen to that (that is in my article as well). As far as generalities, I have seen Open Air preachers use that quite often. However that is difficult to justify since they don't know the hearts of every person they are preaching to. What an Open Air Preacher should do is preach the uncompromised truth IN LOVe and give the lost sinners that are in the audience an opportunity to respond...simple as that. I respect you as well brother and I am not talking about anyone on this message board that I know of...just some people that I have studied as I strive to be the best Open Air preacher I can be through the Spirit of God.
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Post by Steve Noel on Jan 18, 2006 18:35:48 GMT -5
I wrote this back in July and thought it might be good to post it here.
I think that it's important to recognize that we can say the right thing in the wrong way. Particularly when we are talking about the wrath of God. In the book of Jonah there is an interesting contrast between the way God proclaimed His judgment and the way Jonah did. In Jonah 1:2 God says, "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me." Jonah 3:4 tells us the message God sent him to proclaim: "On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: 'Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.'" The message from God is one of judgment and wrath because of wickedness and sin. But notice what God says in the last verse of the book: "But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" (Jnh 4:11) Here we see something of the heart of Almighty God. His holiness and justice demand judgment on sin, yet He is concerned about the very people toward whom His wrath is directed. In fact when Nineveh repents the Word says, "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened." (Jnh 3:10) To this Jonah, God's spokesman, replies, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I KNEW THAT YOU ARE A GRACIOUS AND COMPASSIONATE GOD, SLOW TO ANGER AND ABOUNDING IN LOVE, A GOD WHO RELENTS FROM SENDING CALAMITY." (Jnh 4:2) Jonah was angry because he didn't want God to show mercy to these wicked sinners. He proclaimed God's judgment and wrath in the hope that Nineveh would rebel and not repent. Without question I believe that we are called to declare the just wrath of God against sin. But I'm also certain that we must do so with a right heart that is concerned for the very ones whom we are warning. The Lord Himself has declared, "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" (Eze 18:23). It was Jesus who wept over Jerusalem as he pronounced God's righteous judgment over it. "As he approached Jersualem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, 'If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace - but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you" (Lk 19:41-44). Let us follow in the footsteps of Jesus and the Father and not those of Jonah. I pray we would proclaim the whole counsel of God out of a broken heart that takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I pray also that we would know with Jonah that the Lord is a gracious and compassionate God who is slow to anger and abounds in love. A God who relents from sending judgment when the condition of repentance is met.
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Post by Rom on Jan 18, 2006 19:17:29 GMT -5
good guess, my background is Syrian, but i was born and raised in Canada.
and yes, I am abstract, i am extremely abstract thinker, thank you for pointing that out.
this is how i explain why i can sense the same as all of you, but i do it totally different.
lets say you want to get the colour grey. in art class you are taught to get grey by mixing black and white.
but did you know, that if you mix all colours, both subsitive and additive, you also get the colour grey.
now dont think too much about what i have to say there, but what i am saying is that you can get the same colour in two very different ways.
now people can look at almost everything in life in a very simple manner, or a very complex manner, i can go on and on with examples, but im sure you know that the end thought is generally the same.
did you know that if you read a the whole Bible, you can pretty much summerize the whole moral of the Bible, which is this: Jesus is the light of the world.
did you know that if you read just the first verses of Genesis, and the last verses of Revelations, you get the idea also that Jesus is the light of the world.
"In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."
- Genesis 1: 1-3
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book; of anyone takes away from the words of the book this prophecy, God will take away that person's share of the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. The one who testifies to these things says,
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen."
-Revelations 22: 18-21
Light ..... Jesus = Jesus is the light of World, both of the heavens and the earth.
Now I know this is somewhat 'weird' and by no means do I want to suggest that the Bible is all a game.
What I am saying is this, God gave us everything in life to only prove one thing, that Jesus is the light of World. Without light you usually get lost. Without Chirst in our lives, you will get lost. But I go further than that and say this: just because you have the light, doesnt mean you have the way, you got to know how to use the light, know why it shines so glouriously, and know why its so helpful.
And I go further to say this, I claim alot to know about science and about arts and about technology and so on so forth. I have read tonnes of articles, magazines, books, etc etc.
But in the end, I always come to the conclusion that Jesus is the way to all things possible.
I know that I talked about neutralism and all that kind of junk......i regret mentioning anything like that, this is what i was ultimately trying to describe, but i just got caught up in continuously explaining my thoughts.
and again, i am sorry and ask for forgiveness if you thought i was trying to make Jesse look bad when he came to visit us at the university of toronto.
and oh yeah, when i mean limitless, i mean very simply unrestricted to the devil, or not being limited by evil
i hope all that makes some sense.........i know i write alot, i know its gonna be abstract to some, but let me summerize myself here:
Jesus is the light of the World
-rom
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 18, 2006 20:27:25 GMT -5
I have a lot I want to say but do not really have the time now. Yes we must consider our audience and it is true they have not grown up under the law of God as the Jews had in Jesus day. They have grown up hearing about a God who is only unconditional love, etc. This has lead to a false concept of God (graven image, idolatry, etc.- I know you guys know what I am talking about). For this reason we need to emphasize certain aspects of God, His nature, character, the Bible that are very much neglected. In 4 years of going to one of the better Assembly of God churches in the area I have never heard a message on hell. Never. Most preachers believe all judgment will be after the tribulation (most believe in pre tribulation), so they do not talk about judgment either. If you read through the Bible you will find when preachers preached judgment people would repent. Please read Psalm 94:7, Psalm 10:11, 13, Ezekiel 8:12, 9:9. The reason people have no restraint in their evil is because they do not think God will judge them or require it of them. Why? THE CHURCH HAS NOT PREACHED IT!!!!
As far as being too radical, if your heart is right, motives are right, relationship with Jesus is right, prayer life is right, I do not see why we should not be as radical as possible. The music of today absolutely spews filth and is bold, brass, and blatant. The clothes people wear is becoming more and more trashy. The homosexual agenda is blatant. Everything is up and in your face. Our society becomes more and more humanistic, more tolerant, more non-judgmental. I think it is a terrible mistake to bow to pressure to be more tolerant and understanding. I want to get people's attention, speak to what makes them tick, and preach the Word of God to them. I like to put scriptures on banners, signs, and sandwich boards. They need to know God's love is not unconditional, that God hates sin, you can't sin and go to heaven, and God casts sinners (not sin) into hell.
A banner, sandwich board sign, or t-shirt preaches to so many more people than we can.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 18, 2006 21:44:28 GMT -5
Amen. So, it is possible to be too brash? I would think so. But if our heart is right and we are prayerful about it.. will it be?
I look forward to this discussion.
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Post by Rom on Jan 18, 2006 22:19:12 GMT -5
lets play a simple game of bad or good
_____________
this question is retorical: what would you have more of: good or bad?
would you want to have all good (100%)?
or 2% bad and 98% good?
so, if you had a choice would you have all good..... i guess this depends if you can handle bad?
therefore, can you learn from the bad and make it something good?
can u do this on your own you think? not really.....?
do you think Jesus could help with that? I do!
that is why people who don't believe in Christ, try to beleive in having a perfect life, but actually don't!, but then claim that there lives are not perfect.
that is why people who do believe in Christ will either claim they are nothing without Christ, or say they do have a perfect life with Christ.
another abstract thing i thought of
so my question to the radical thingy.........
"But if our heart is right and we are prayerful about it.. will it be? "
If we follow Jesus in the right way, are lifes will only be radical to one thing..........sin!
-let me know what you think
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 19, 2006 15:30:53 GMT -5
I think signs are great at communicating the gospel. If they weren't so effective, then why do companies invest millions and millions every year in them? People who won't go to church, listen to an open air preacher, or even take a tract, will read a sign and that is a seed planted.
The Salvation army used to use signs and banners in the days of William Booth. Leonard Ravenhill used signs in his day. And Ian Paisley street preachers with sandwhich boards. I am all for scriptural signs and banners.
People say "it not the message I oppose, but it's the method of signs" But I disagree. Nobody has a problem with McDonald signs. If a sign says "Free Cheese Burgers" nobody would mind. But if it says "Jesus is THE truth" there is an uproar. Our society has signs everywhere. People do not oppose the method of signs as an avenue of communication, but they do oppose the abrasive truth of the gospel.
I think that the safety of scriptures is a good place to be. Signs like "Unless you repent you will perish" are scripturally safe.
As far as having compassion and sorrow, here are two articles I wrote on it and a poem:
Hearts of Love and Eyes with Tears
In the day and age in which we live we have a great deal of things. Many of us have nice jobs which provide for our nice homes and our nice cars. We have lovely little churches on every corner that work tirelessly to accommodate our weekly social needs. Yet in a day of such physical prosperity, there is much spiritual bankruptcy. How many of those who go to church on Sunday are also at the club on Fridays? Let us get honest. We have hearts of sin and eyes of lust but I am telling you that the Lord is calling us to have hearts of love and eyes with tears!
Jesus wept over that which He loved and He weeps for us today because we are not weeping for ourselves. How can it be that our hearts are not in torments living in this mad world where the single greatest threat to an unborn child is its own parents? How do our hearts not ache over the thousands of souls who have yet come to even an understanding of the gospel? May our hearts fill with the love of God and may our eyes flow with the tears of God! May we be the open channel in which God can transform the world!
Have you soaked yourself in many tears in public or in private? Have you ever cried or wept like a baby in front of those perishing souls who are heading for the wrath of a Holy God. It is going to take more tears if we are going to reach this rebelious and adulterous world! Forgive me for being the one who says it but whatever we have been doing hasn’t been working.
In the early days of the Salvation Army certain women tried everything they could and labored every way they knew how to until they finally were on the verge of quitting their work all together. Then William Booth sent them two words: “Try tears.” They did and they saw revival. Church lets try the one thing we haven’t yet tried. Lets finally do the one thing we've been avoiding. Let’s try tears. Wake up! Is it possible that the only reason your own neighbor hood is going to hell is because you’ve been sleeping when you should have been weeping? Come on let us answer the question.
Make sure you hear me correctly: if anyone should have secrets it’s Christians. Let the hypocritical showmen do as they please parading themselves all around. They have their reward. But let us live secret lives of prayer which is known only to God. It is the private prayers of the Saints and not the public ministries of the showmen that deliver souls from death. I don’t believe in making promises that I can not keep and neither does God. You have God’s promise that if you sow in tears, you will reap in joy. Let’s take God up on the deal.
The Burden of the Lord
“We want people that God can share His burdens with. ‘ O, roll your burden on the Lord.’ Who does He roll His burdens on?....Get to the place where you say ‘God what’s your burden for me in life?” Leonard Ravenhill. If any disciple does not ask our Lord this question then his discipleship is in question. I asked the Lord this question numerous times and I continually received the same answer. “Preach the gospel.”
Do you know what the Lords burden is for you in your life? What are you going to work for? Like the scripture says “what is your life?” The fire is going to try every believer’s works. I had a thought once while I was on a plane looking out on all the houses. How many of us only work for money, for a nice home, for a nice car, for nice things? When the fire comes to these things I guarantee they are going to burn and many will have nothing of eternal significance to show for the life they have wasted. Maybe the one thing the church has forgotten is eternity. In the site of eternity is what you’re laboring for going to matter? Do the angels get excited about what you’re doing?
Can the Lord give you His burdens or do you just shove them back at Him? The Lord was able to share them with His prophets. It says “The burden of the Lord came to….(Nahum 1:1, Habakkuk 1:1, Malachi 1:1, Zechariah 9:1,KJV) Has the burden of the Lord come to you? Have you tossed and turned and sweated at night because the multitudes are going to hell? Do you cry and get angry at the fact that Satan is playing monopoly with the souls of men? What will you do? How will your life matter? Let us all live with eternities values in view. May the Lords priorities be our priorities and His burdens be ours.
THERE IS A LOVE
There is a love comes from on high That fills God's people below It brings them joy as well as sighs And fills until it flows
There is a love that counts no cost In reaching the dying masses Through eyes compassionate it sees the lost And labors while time passes
There is a love, the heart it breaks For this world quickly dying Internal pains and lasting aches It sets the soul to crying
There is a love that hates all sin And delights in holy living It speaks the Word, the lost to win For the One who is forgiving
- J.M.
When was the last time you moaned and groaned in prayer over the lost? Check your heart.
But I also understand that it doesn't say Jesus wept in EVERY sermon. We need to be reasonable and balanced also. There is a time for a deep, compassionate pleading, and also a time for a strong, sharp rebuke. Both are completely biblical.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 19, 2006 16:19:38 GMT -5
Amen. That's what I was pondering when I started this thread. Looking for that balance. I've noticed this depends a lot on the crowd I'm preaching to. The more blatant sinners they are usually the sharper my preaching. How does everyone else react? Or do you change from crowd to crowd?
I'm really thankful for this board, because there are so many OA preachers on it. I have never seen anyone OA preach other than myself( and recordings) so I am always curious how others work in the OA.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Jan 19, 2006 16:28:59 GMT -5
As far as the message for the crowd, I strongly believe in LAW to the proud and GRACE to the humble. That is a very biblical message.
As far as us as preachers go, I believe we need to say HARD truths with SOFT hearts.
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 19, 2006 21:38:18 GMT -5
As far as the message for the crowd, I strongly believe in LAW to the proud and GRACE to the humble. That is a very biblical message. As far as us as preachers go, I believe we need to say HARD truths with SOFT hearts. Amen Jesse! Well said!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Jan 19, 2006 22:04:17 GMT -5
I read this in a Wesley sermon today:
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Post by Kerrigan on Jan 19, 2006 23:07:50 GMT -5
I Open Air Preached in Slidell, LA right after Hurricane Katrina hit. I had a team of 9 people with me and we preached under a couple of tents on the front lawn of a local Church. Under one tent was the free food and under the other was the free clothes. Now, you would think that after all these people had been through they would be humbled by their situation to say the least. But as Open Air after Open Air went by, a Righteous Anger began to come up in me. I began to preach more boldly against sin because less and less people seemed interested in the preaching. They were hard hearted people who God was trying to wake up through the destruction brought forth from His hand. But they still were greedy, prideful and indifferent. They acted like nothing had ever happened and that the most important thing to them was to get back to "normal" life. Most wouldn't stop to think that God has spared them and given them another chance, another day to repent and trust His Son for their salvation. I thank God that there were some who responded humbly and maybe there were some who responded later on or once they got home. But in my experience, when people don't want to hear the Gospel, the most important message they could ever hear (their life literally depends on it), I preach harder and harder until they start stopping....
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Post by Messenger Micah on Jan 20, 2006 0:03:14 GMT -5
I think it definitely depends on the crowd. There are times when they are quiet, listening, soaking it up, taking it in. Those times you really want to explain and clarify things. Other times when the crowd is rowdy, wild, drunk, they need sharp rebukes. As you start to lose their attention throw in some humor or satire. To get people to stop be very dramatic.
Earlier we were talking about how people's hearts cannot be known generally. That may be true in some cases but in many it is not. It is not hard to know the sins going on at a homosexual parade, or a bar, or a rap concert. Also I think with most audiences you can speak generally about sexual sin and most will be guilty.
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Post by Rom on Jan 20, 2006 15:41:48 GMT -5
As far as us as preachers go, I believe we need to say HARD truths with SOFT hearts. Genius!
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