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Post by Guest0421 on Apr 5, 2006 9:45:23 GMT -5
I will not pray for false brethren. You need to repent. Do you not have the love of Christ in you? You do not reflect Christ at all. How foolish it is to say you will not pray for someone, especially one who you feel is deceived. It would almost make one wonder if you have unforgivingness in your heart. I am not against GNN, nor trying to defend them, but your post is foolish. Do you honestly believe that? If you do, do you say it like Paul, weeping? What 'heresy' do they promote? You contradict yourself. Ummm.... AMEN There is something seriously wrong with that guy!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 5, 2006 10:17:13 GMT -5
GNN said that Open Air Outreach will be featured in a "Hate Speech Documentary". We inquired about this because we knew nothing of it. Here it is: www.crucialprogression.org/ And the video they are going to use for this "hate speech documentary" is this video: cadronpictures.netfirms.com/video.htmYou know what I say? I say PRAISE GOD! That is some good preaching they are helping to spread. Does anyone see anything wrong with that video clip?
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Post by Tony Holland on Apr 5, 2006 10:23:47 GMT -5
Guys,,,,praying for you to stay patient through this. I know emotions must be running wild right now and I just encourage you to hang in there and continue to work towards reconcilliation.
Question for you. It seemed that one of the major issues that they had was that the message that you are preaching is based on entire santification rather than salvation by grace. What is the team's response to that?
Thanks guys and God Bless
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Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 5, 2006 10:36:18 GMT -5
What we preach is repentance from all known sin and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. That salvation is a free gift, by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8,9 And that whoever the Son sets free is free indeed. John 8:36
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 5, 2006 10:47:24 GMT -5
Than is there simply a "miscommunication" on that issue. Is that message any different than what we are preaching?
I guess the basic question is this. What is your response to all of the issues that GNN says sets the ministries apart?
Not trying to pick it apart, just trying to understand you, Jesse and Jeff's view of this also.
Thanks Bro!
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Post by Rodgers on Apr 5, 2006 13:00:22 GMT -5
I guess I will be as foolish as Jeremiah, the other prophets and the Apostle John, who said that there was a time to pray for a brother in sin and a time not to pray fro a brother in sin. The sin that leads to death is the unrepented sin. Sending an email out to 700 people slandering another brother is sin and as of yet they have not repented so I can not pray for these people in the same sense I would pray for a brother who is in sin but willing to admit his wrong and move on with his life. I can and will pray that GOD will convict these people to repent. However, to pray for the well-being and prosperity I can not do.
I weep every day over false brethren. To say that someone can slander a brother and still be saved is wrong. To slander a brother is to hate a brother and to hate a brother is to be a murderer and we know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Do not tell me I need to repent for calling a spade a spade. I have not sinned.
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2006 13:42:45 GMT -5
I have an email periodical that goes out from my ministry called the watchmans trumpet, it covers the people that threaten the cross, maitreya, rome, and various men from the emerging church movement and TBN, but these men openly deny atonement, holiness, and the diety of Jesus. These are the men we should be warning each other about.
I cannot say that I agree with all of what GNN does, or all that Open Air does, but just like both ministries, I have my own quirks that follow my preaching, like police, persecution and people saying I am a liar. But I have to say, between these two ministries I fit ijn much better here at Open Air. I am an advocate of the radical ministry, if you want to call it that. I am an advocate of open discussion of theology and doctrine. I think that not talking of doctrinal issues of unbiblical, if we cant voice what we believe then we obviously have something to hide.
I do belive that the issues between you guys and GNN is defenately holiness, I have been preaching law, grace, holiness, for awhile and have never had more opposition. Also I think it is a fued of calvinism and arminianism. But I thank God for the persistence of Jesse and Micah, they have opened my eyes to different aspects that I would have never examined on the GNN board.
I say that we need to pray for the BRETHREN at GNN. I can vouch that they are soundly saved, I know many of them and they are Christian. They have seen their sinfulness, and most of them reflect true Christian lives. So like Paul said to the Thessalonians, pray for us, or in this situation, pray for them. I am glad that I have found this message board, it has rekindled the fire that grew dim at GNN. Persevere Jesse, Miles, and all of you.
Jesse, Is their an HTML code somewhere that I can copy and paste to link?
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Post by Juli on Apr 5, 2006 14:09:47 GMT -5
Jesse, Miles - such encouragement and blessing from the wisdom the Lord has granted each of you. Maintain that focus boys! Don't look back, and thank you for your wisdom and exhortation to the little "flock" here - you guys could have taken the low road and slandered back, or tried to defend yourself, etc. All of it would have been in the flesh...I have to say, although I don't fully understand OR agree with all your teachings on sinless perfection and holiness (but I am studying!) your actions on this board in the midst of this truly is a testimony that gives me hope, conviction, and challenges me. Thank you brothers, for your godly examples. THAT is real fruit.
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Post by Jules on Apr 5, 2006 14:22:54 GMT -5
GNN said that Open Air Outreach will be featured in a "Hate Speech Documentary". We inquired about this because we knew nothing of it. Here it is: www.crucialprogression.org/ And the video they are going to use for this "hate speech documentary" is this video: cadronpictures.netfirms.com/video.htmYou know what I say? I say PRAISE GOD! That is some good preaching they are helping to spread. Does anyone see anything wrong with that video clip? Jesse, YES! I do see something wrong with that vidoe clip - the entire crown are hard hearted, sin-loving children of the devil! That is an AWESOME vidoe clip - thanks for sharing. Is that supposed to be their example of YOU as the example of hate speech? Because it is clear that you were the ONLY one NOT filled with hate. The entire crowd was vile, potty mouthed and yelling. Again, the fruit speaks, we don't have to point out the obvious. Amen brother, I say PRAISE GOD too! Great preaching the Spirit gave you that day....
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Post by Jeff Fuller on Apr 5, 2006 14:25:16 GMT -5
Also I think it is a fued of calvinism and arminianism. So Evan... how do you see this as a fued between Calvinism and Arminianism? Personally, I don't see wither GNN or OAO taking a strong stance for either. Am I missing something?
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2006 14:35:19 GMT -5
The reason I think that way is because holiness is majorily preached by Wesleyans and Methodists and so forth. But it may not be, I mailed a staff member and he never returned an answer either way. But their server is down today so I cannot tell if he did yet. OAO takes a strong stance for Aminianism as Jesse and the staff seem to be primarily Arminian. Ray and Kirk are calvinist, and GNN sets Ray high on a pedestal. I am not sure of the doctrinal points of either, but from my observation that is the way it looks. Forgie me if I presume to much, but that is what I think.
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Post by Jules on Apr 5, 2006 14:36:40 GMT -5
Jeff, I agree with you. It does appear to be about holiness, not Arminianism vs. Calvinism. There are tons of seed sowers who disagree on those two doctrines yet still go out together and are on good terms (as this board proves). Besides, if GNN were fully Calvinistic, then by definition they shouldn't worry too much about OAO methods because they won't be doing anything to "side track" GOd's sovereign hand in election and saving people, will they? So I don't think the Calvinism/Arminian difference is what is driving this division. It appears to be VERY personal, and very focused on what they call the "santification" issue, which of course is the holiness teachings. What else could it be?
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Post by Jules on Apr 5, 2006 14:41:20 GMT -5
Evan, I agree that Ray at least adheres to some Calvinistic views, but I don't think all of them. I don't know about Kirk, I have never heard him preach. All Calvinists I have met so far use the law, but many Arminians do as well, (although clearly not all of them) but I try not to generalize. I have never emailed Livingwaters to get an answer either way, but I do know Ray goes to Calvary Chapel, and Kirk to a "non-denominational" church because I did ask that. GNN avoids talking doctrine at all costs, so it would be like pulling teeth to get their views or a solid statement of faith I think. But, in their defense, it is probably best NOT to align with theological terminoloy and doctrines because the bottom line is: GO YE THEREFORE AND PREACH! There are so few who do, we shouldn't fight amongst ourselves.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 5, 2006 14:54:56 GMT -5
rodgersj01,
I can only assume you have heard both sides of the story and have heard from God, since you can boldly proclaim, "the wrath of God abides on them." Is this assumption correct?
I am far from convinced the wrath of God abides on either party. I love OAO and would help them in anyway possible.
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2006 15:00:09 GMT -5
I agree whole heartedly Jules, I was only voicing what I thoght the problem MAY be, I am not sure either way. I think that Open Air needs to start doing bootcamps only call it field training or something. I do pray that a reuniting will come because both ministries are amazing. But as Sauel Chadwick said, "Saints of the fire heart either get water thrown on them or told to leave, burning is not a pleasent sensation to anything but the fire."(Paraphrase).
Jesse, I just watched that video clip from that documentary, how is that hate preaching towards homosexuals? I dont htink you even mentioned homosexuality. It is heart breaking to see peopole opposing you so much brother, you are in my prayers.
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Post by jackjackson on Apr 5, 2006 15:56:41 GMT -5
I have taken to opportunity to have phone discussions with both Jesse and Jon Speed of GNN.
Brothers and Sisters, please don't add more salt to the wounds and continue in a direction add bad to an already bad situation.
I wanted to hear both sides, and I have. I wanted to hear the hearts of both sides, and I have.
I ask for everyone to be in prayer and "wait" on the Lord. How long? As long as it takes!
Fisrt of all, I'll start with GNN. They have admitted to making some errors. In fact I told Jon that I wish the e-mails hadn't started flying, etc. Whether there concerns are valid, is between them and the Lord. They disagree with the way crowds were gathered. This is what it seems to boil down to. Now Satan has had a field day, hurting peoples feelings, causing sides to drawn, bringing in a spirit of distrust, and disunity.
Sadly, that is where we are now.
We must be careful to not be of Apollos or of Paul, but remember that each one of answers directly to God and none of us has any mediator but Christ.
This must not be a matter of I am of Jesse, or I am of Darrel, otherwise we all look like a bunch of spoiled children, none of which is being lead by the Holy Spirit.
Now, what can be done? Jesse and Miles feel that to draw a crowd, you might say something to stir them up. GNN feels one should draw a crowd, but try and make it more a curiosity item. For example like Ray did when he had a mock funeral.
I am not saying that people might not be saved out of both styles. I am not trying pick sides, I just believe we need to keep ourselves open to not lean to far in either direction, but make sure we lead by the Holy Spirit to draw a crowd out of a loving desire to allow the Holy Spirit to do the convicting of sin, righteousness, and the Judgment to come (John 16:8). That job is God's and God's alone.
We must all agree with God's Word's through Paul, that he became all things to all people, that he might reach all the more for Christ. The goal for us who love our neighbors as ourselves is to get out of the way, and allow the Holy Spirit do His job. I have found through the thousands of one 2 ones I have done, and the 1000 plus that the Lord has blessed me to lead to Him, that I get much further with a firm yet loving conversation, in which I admit I too deserve hell, than when I offend.
That skill has developed as I have failed many times learning. Edison once said he developed thousands of way not to make a light bulb, before he found out how to make one.
I have learned much from all of you, whether GNN or OAO since I just started to post here, but the only winner in the situation so far is Satan.
I can't stand when he makes us look like fools, stepping right in the snares he has laid.
It has been said that even a strong man can't hold a one pound tongue.
I recommend we pray for God to bring unity. I pray that Jesse and Miles will be willing to at least consider that drawing an open crowd, is always better than drawing and angry closed crowd; therefore it should our goal.
Yet, I would also hope that GNN is open enough to admit that sometimes not matter how you draw a crowd, God can work through that, as we trust His Word to be the power of salvation to all who believe, as His Word drops the strongholds of Satan's blnding as it is intended.
Much of what we are seeing is quickness to speak, rather than really listening. I took the time to hear both and what I heard was both OAO and GNN want souls to repent and fill the nets. That is what I want, that is what you want; and most importantly it is the "WILL OF GOD" that we win souls.
True Christians will get together, lovingly resolve differences, or part without malice towards each others ministries.
May we settle this on our knees, not with our fingers.
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2006 16:11:19 GMT -5
AMEN, What do we do then to not cause dissention? GNN want us to leave here, but Jesse doesnt care if we post on GNN. I have left GNN until recopncilliation is made, as I have seen only GNN slander and have heard nothing from OAO about anything. That is just me, from my point of view it isnt really I am of so and so, but rather I am doing what God leads me to do. God is leading me here, and I am learning much. Thanks again.
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Tony Cruz
Full Member
Be on fire for God and people will come out to see you burn!
Posts: 107
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Post by Tony Cruz on Apr 5, 2006 16:46:28 GMT -5
i really dont understand whats going on. i saw the video and i dont know why jesse was speaking to them about their sin and did not reason with them that their sin is seperating them from God. I have been learning from both messegeboard that God is the one who draws all men and we shouldnt be doing that by our own methods and that is why their division but if we just preach the law and stay in the realm of the conscience and allow the Holy Spirit to bring conviction and those who have questions can be told to wait until you are done speaking and you will answer any questions they may have. That is what i'm learning for all of this is that we in our own strength are coming up with ways to draw a crowd, we are called to preach whether they listen or not, whether they stay or keep on walking.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 5, 2006 16:52:38 GMT -5
The reason Jesse looks so harsh I think is because for one, he is harsh (praise God) and for two, it is only part of his sermon. I think if we could see whole sermons than we would hae a better idea of where the little short clips are coming from and in their context would most definately be biblical and fitting as I trust that Jesse indeed knows what he is doing.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 5, 2006 17:19:55 GMT -5
Tony, the reason I will not try to defend myself against their accusations is because in the past when I have done that they have twisted it around to try and make me look even worse then I did in the beginning. I have found it best not to do anything at all.
They have created a straw-man figure that is spiteful, angry, and selfishly does unbiblically things to draw crowds in the open air. Because I am not that straw-man, I do not have to respond to those accusations.
I commit myself to the judgment of the Lord.
But they have made it very clear that one of their main issues with Open Air Outreach is that we preach holiness. Miles Lewis was just banned from GNN because he travels with OAO and we preach holiness. GNN has taken an official doctrinal stance against the message of holiness.
They say the message of holiness is unbiblical and that telling a non-Christian that they need to turn from all their sin is like speaking a foreign language to them and is unreasonable.
I do not see how you could preach the gospel without telling someone they needed to turn from all known sin.
But this I know, there is no pregnancy without pain. Open Air Outreach has been birthed in affliction - brought forth in agony from the onset.
Since the open air team has been full-time we have been opposed by the world and even betrayed by our own brethren. But the truth of God is marching on.
When you take a stand for heaven you can expect all of hell to come out against you. God will take you through the fire but he'll make you a better man for it.
It doesn't matter who is against you if God be for you. It doesn't matter what men say about you, only what God says matters. At times it will hurt, but you'll live. You will recieve wounds, but you'll survive.
So serve the Lord in love and faithfulness. Preach the bible as it is found in the bible. Keep marching even when you have to go up hill. Keep going on even when it's against the tide. Put your hand to the plow and never look back. And in the end, the eternal rewards far surpass the earthly suffering.
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Post by Straw Man on Apr 5, 2006 17:49:05 GMT -5
If anyone is building a strawman here I think it's Jesse. GNN never said that they were against holiness. They did say that they were against preaching entire sanctification / Christian perfection to unbelivers though. There point was simply that sanctification is for believers, not unbelievers. GNN believes strongly in calling sinners to repentance as far as I can tell.
If the gospel offends - so be it. If we offend, then we are not martyrs! Persecution is not the sign that God's with you. That's the logic that the same Jehovah Witness use.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 5, 2006 17:53:06 GMT -5
What they call sanctification or sinless perfection, we simply call repentance.
We call men to turn from all sin. What we preached in that video was that men must turn from all known sin.
The message of the gospel is repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ.
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Tony Cruz
Full Member
Be on fire for God and people will come out to see you burn!
Posts: 107
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Post by Tony Cruz on Apr 5, 2006 18:23:09 GMT -5
jesse, i admire your faithfulness to the Lord. When you preach holiness i believe your telling your hearers that this is the only way that they will see God and this requires repentance on their part. Dont you think that they are blind and they do not see their sins until they are taken through the law so that they can see the sinfulness of sin. Holiness is to strong of a word for them to hear from the beginning. Rather than explaining holiness perhaps explaining repentance would be best. I dont write so that you can change your way of preaching but putting stuff out there perhaps that has not been said or done. I truly believe that we need to preach the truth and that it is a strong message for those who are swimming in their sins and want to stay there. I for one have been taught that their is a continual struggle from the flesh and it wars against the spirit, and when paul said that i want to do good but i do those things that i dont want to do and the things that i want to do i do not do.I also understand the one where Jesus says "go and sin no more" now did that mean that she was no longer to go out there and wilfully keep sinning waking up in the morning and saying "i hope i make alot today prostetuting". I believe she stop commiting adultery but did she lust? only God knows b/c scripture does not say. I persue holiness in my life just like when i was living for the devil i was not perfect in smoking, it took awhile for me to get use to as well as drinking and every other sin out there you get better at it and so i believe that even if we are new creatures that we are headed towards being perfect as our Father is perfect. Please jesse i would like to learn about what you think and believe of what i wrote. Please help me understand this.
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Apr 5, 2006 18:26:47 GMT -5
Does anyone see anything wrong with that video clip? No I see nothing wrong with this clip. Jesse comes across as being spirit-filled and showing longsuffering towards a very hostile, sin loving crowd. I see nothing unbiblical in the way GNN or OAO draw a crowd although the latter is certainly more controversial but we must always be led by the Spirit as to how to confront a particular crowd. They are not all the same. I was recently criticised by a christian for offering a $10 to anyone who would prove that God did not exist. I still believe there is nothing wrong with that. However I do take issue with using unbiblical/ungodly methods for attracting a crowd for example Ron Luce - Battle Cry Outreach where ungodly rock music was used to attract youth, which unfortunately GNN leaders were not willing to condemn. Let's just agree to disagree on the two methods and only criticise and condemn if the methods are unbiblical/ungodly.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 5, 2006 18:29:40 GMT -5
The video clip was the end of the second day of preaching.
We preached the day before to that crowd for about 5 hours and we preached to that crowd the second day for about 6 hours.
The video clip was actually the last 30 minutes of the 11 hours of preaching. We didn't start off that way, we ended that way.
We took them through the Law, we answered their objections - for two full days. And so we ended the message very simply, "Go and sin no more".
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Apr 5, 2006 18:30:09 GMT -5
We were on that campus in the video clip for two days, several hours each day. It would make sense that hecklers would bring a video camera and catch one of the most heated parts of the day.
I saw the man filming.
He filmed me preaching when I addressed the crowd on issues of false religions and philosphies. I saw him all over the place, getting different angles while we were preaching. Sometimes coming very, very close to the action.
That video doesn't show the part where Miles was telling a calm story to a very attentive crowd and a random man came by and tossed a water balloon (thank God it missed).
It doesn't show the parts where the young lady holding the scripture sign at the end gave Miles the finger when he turned his back.
It doesn't show the part where a young ma who came with a bullhorn to heckle us, actually helped us maintain the crowd with his amplification, and at the end of the meeting shook our hands.
You want to talk about hate? Where's the clip when the man who was filming put aside his camera, got in Jesse's face and started to literally scream how God was already on their campus, so they didn't need anyone to preach to them "SO LEAVE OUR CAMPUS!" And they began to chant.
For a while now I had decided to remain silent in theological discussions, and remain fairly anonymous. But I cannot let Miles and Jesse take the brunt of this alone. For months I have been travelling with them, preaching the same message "Repent and Believe." Even though I was not a big part of GNN, I do praise God for them, and it broke my heart when all these e-mails started going out. To say the least, I was bewildered. I've only met the men of GNN a few times and they are wonderful fellows, full of the spirit of God and love for the lost. I'm sad I won't have much of an opportunity to join with them in ministry.
I've discovered that how you get a crowd is how you keep a crowd. If you get a crowd with money, often you have to keep them with money. If you get a crowd with fiery antics, you have to keep performing to keep them. If you preach, they stay for the preaching. This is all a learning experience - God and God using Godly men to teach us, the open air and our prayer closets our classroom.
Many times on college campuses Christians and unsaved alike bring up this mythological "unknown sin" that everyone has in their heart. In the words of Miles Lewis "If you can name it, you can repent of it." Even David asked God to reveal the secrets of his heart so that "unknown sin" could become KNOWN!
I thank you all for your prayers, support and encouragement. You'll see me around a bit more on the boards now. ;-)
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Post by Straw Man on Apr 5, 2006 18:33:31 GMT -5
What they call sanctification or sinless perfection, we simply call repentance. EXACTLY! The slanderous straw man you built up was that GNN has taken "an official doctrinal stance against holiness." The TRUTH is that GNN has taken an official doctrinal stance against OAO's evangelistic preaching of their view of holiness.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 5, 2006 18:35:55 GMT -5
It is a doctrinal stance against sinless perfection non the less. There is no denying that GNN has taken a doctrinal stance on this one particular issue.
Great men like John Wesley, John Fletcher, William Booth, Duncan Campbell, Leonard Ravenhill all preached sinless perfection and they all suffered for it.
(By sinless perfection, we mean the turning from all KNOWN sin. Not the inability to sin, but the ability not to sin. That is the Open Air Outreach view of holiness)
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Post by Straws Man Friend on Apr 5, 2006 18:40:29 GMT -5
If anyone is building a strawman here I think it's Jesse. GNN never said that they were against holiness. They did say that they were against preaching entire sanctification / Christian perfection to unbelivers though. There point was simply that sanctification is for believers, not unbelievers. GNN believes strongly in calling sinners to repentance as far as I can tell. If the gospel offends - so be it. If we offend, then we are not martyrs! Persecution is not the sign that God's with you. That's the logic that the same Jehovah Witness use. I think that I will have to agree with Straw Man here. There is a difference of opinion here. OAO seems to preach that if anyone ever sins again that they are going to go to Hell. While GNN calls people to turn from all sin without saying, "You can sin again if you want to." The thing you are accusing GNN of doing, building a Straw Man, it seems you are guilty of the same Jesse. GNN not preaching to tell people to turn from all sin is non-existant. They DO preach that and you know it. You have heard them preach. Yet, they don't believe in sinless perfection as you do. So, it doesn't seem like you or they will change their minds on things, so why not depart in a Godly way instead of going back and forth with this. This seems, to me at least, a difference of opinion when it comes to theology. OAO seems to think that as soon as someone gets saved, they have to be "sinlessly perfect" while GNN believes that they don't. Calling "Sinless Perfection" by a new name (hence "Complete Repentance") doesn't change what it means. My question is this: Before OAO or anyone else on here believed in (or practiced) "Sinless Perfection" as a doctine, where were you going to go? Were you going to Hell? Were you preaching a false or wrong message to your crowds before you preached "Complete Repentance" as you do now? Please answer these questions...
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Tony Cruz
Full Member
Be on fire for God and people will come out to see you burn!
Posts: 107
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Post by Tony Cruz on Apr 5, 2006 18:43:10 GMT -5
in matthew 11:7-9 Jesus asked what did you go out to see. John was not a pretty sight and his words were also not so pretty. people also get nervous when people get all rowdy and angry that you are doing something wrong.
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