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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 18:55:30 GMT -5
That sounds like something Rick Warren or some of those psychology preachers would come out with. The purpose of creation is to glorify God. This is done by obediance. God commands all men to repent and believe. If you don't do that then you are disobeying and therefore you deserve Hell. Your own belief has no relevance to the rest of the world. Others have 'their' beliefs too, but it is all irrelevant. As far as wisdom, knowledge and understanding in this world goes, the only thing that is absolute is the Word of God. The Bible is clear, except ye repent...ye perish! ... the stock you place in the Bible is part of your personal belief. How are my beliefs any less relevant than yours? Again your logic or lack thereof astounds me. PS: What do you have against Rick Warren? I always found his Bible studies enlightening.
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Apr 8, 2006 18:58:52 GMT -5
What did they do to me? Nothing.
It's what they're doing to each other, themselves and God. It breaks my heart.
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Post by tomah on Apr 8, 2006 19:02:51 GMT -5
Check my site, I have an article about Rick Warren there.
Belief in the Bible isn't the same as any 'belief' because the Bible holds an authority that nothing else nor no one else has!
1) ITS UNITY
The Bible is a very complex book with many diverse factors and it’s unity is so apparent that it gives strong support to its divine origin. It contains an amazing continuity of message in spite of the fact that in contains many different ingredients. i. It was written over a 1500 year period, covering 60 generations. ii. Over 40 authors were involved in its final composition, each from widely different cultural and occupational backgrounds, including kings, a fisherman, a tax collector, a doctor, a shepherd, etc. iii. It was written in different locations over three continents, (Asia, Africa and Europe). iv. It was written in 3 languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Even with all this variation of contributing factors, the Bible has one single, unified theme concerning God’s redemptive plan for man, showing that God was behind it all.
2) ITS INDESTRUCTIBILITY
I am sure that no historical artefact has been attacked as frequently and vehemently as the Bible and yet it has weathered the test of time through it all. Atheistic philosophies, higher criticism, modernists, liberal theologians, rationalists, humanists, communists and every conceivable brand of critic have launched repeated assaults against the Bible to no avail, but instead the Bible has triumphed over them all each time. For example, during the 18th century, Voltaire confidently boasted of the eventual extinction of Christianity and the Bible. However, only fifty years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society used his press and house to produce countless Bibles.
“The Bible is no mere book, but a living creature, with a power that conquers all that oppose it.” - Napoleon
3) ITS CONTINUED POPULARITY
Inspite of all the opposition and persecution, the Bible remains the all-time best seller! Since 1456, when Johannes Gutenburg’s press printed the first Bible, 7 billion copies have been printed. No other book even comes close to that in popularity and circulation. It has been here for around 1900 years and it is still loved, read and studied by millions!
4) THE ACCURACY OF ITS MANUSCRIPTS
There are over 5,400 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, over 10,000 of the Latin Vulgate, and at least 9,300 other early versions. A total of over 24,000 manuscript copies or portions of the N.T. are in existence today
Compared to other ancient writings such as Homer’s Iliad or Ceasar’s Gallic Wars, the Bible has more manuscript evidence supporting its reliability and accuracy of translation than any ten pieces of ancient literature combined! So conclusive is the evidence supporting this fact that one prominent scholar noted, “To be sceptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament.”
The accuracy of manuscript translation, as well as the huge amount of manuscript material in existence, gives strong support to its divine authorship and preservation.
5) ITS SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY
Despite popular belief, the progress of science has not undermined the Bible’s accuracy. Not a single scientific fact or discovery has ever disproved anything in the Bible! In fact, they have repeatedly confirmed the scriptures’ accuracy. E.g. the Bible revealed that the earth was round nearly 2,200 years before the 15th century explorers realised that the world wasn’t flat after all (Isaiah 40:22). The Hebrew word for ‘circle’ in this verse means ‘sphericity’ or ‘roundness’. Before the invention of the telescope, Kepler counted 1,005 stars, Ptolemy counted 1,056 stars and Tycho Brahe 777. But in 600 BC, Jeremiah revealed that the number of stars was innumerable, (Jer 33:22).
6) THE FULFILMENT OF ITS PROPHECIES
Throughout the Bible there are prophecies concerning nations, historic events and individuals. But what lends such overwhelming creditability to the divine origin of these prophecies is the fact that hundreds have been literally fulfilled in the most minute detail. God Himself established the issue of prophetic fulfilment as a legitimate test of divine authorship and authenticity, Isaiah 41:21-23, 26.
E.g. The Old Testament, written over a 1,000 year period, contains several hundred references to the coming Messiah -- all of which were fulfilled exactly in Jesus Christ. The chance that all these predictions could come true exactly as written is beyond most human's comprehension, giving to any honest enquirer undeniable proof that God inspired the writing of the prophecies in the Bible.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 19:10:25 GMT -5
All they're doing to themselves is loving each other. I seriously think that God, the great Creator of the Universe... has more important things to concern Herself with (that's right, I said HER) than two men kissing. There are bigger issues going on in our world, people.
Let them do what they want. No one is forcing you to turn gay, so why should you condemn them for how they choose to live?
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Strange and peculiar fellow
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Post by Strange and peculiar fellow on Apr 8, 2006 19:45:38 GMT -5
Evan shaible said...
Actually the scripture says.. if...
1 John 2..
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
there is another if... though...
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The whole concept of sinless perfection presupposes that the resurrection has already taken place.....
because how can the perishable ever out on the imperishable...
outside of the resurrection....
that is why the Holy Spirit's indwelling is called a deposit...
this presupposes of something that will happen.. but not a "complete transaction..."... that is for later...
What is circumcision or uncircumcision... it is nothing... What matters is the work of the Spirit.. faith working itself through love...
I think the doctrine of sinless perfection is a way for carnal Christians to measure one another's deposit... and is prideful....
What law is there against love...?
It is like this...
A new convert from an indian reservation when asked about the work of grace.. said this...
Me think you white folks no understand grace at all..
When me got off train to come to this bible study, me see sign out side.. and it say "no spitting"...
What do me do... before me know it me spit...
When me look around me see others spitting...
Me think ... what strange sign.. that make people spit, and spit more...
Then when me get to beautiful white man's house for bible study.... me think what strange folk.. because me no see sign anywhere that say no spitting....
but when me look around beautiful house... me not want to spit, and me notice others also not spit...
me thinks this is what grace is...
why spit on beautiful house... and why need sign to say no spit... and me no need anyone to say no spit.. me already know no spit in beautiful house...
(borrowed from Ray Stedman)... There is no law against love...
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Post by Tony Denham on Apr 9, 2006 1:20:53 GMT -5
Rev K wrote: Uhh... I agree with that. I agree too.
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Post by Evan on Apr 9, 2006 8:22:32 GMT -5
Hey Rev, you believe in perfection brother!! Praise God!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 9, 2006 10:15:36 GMT -5
I do believe that is what I said, "If any man sin..." Now I do agree with you, there us another if. However, would tell this to a new convert, "Since Jesus died for you you can sin, there is no point in trying not to because we all sin, it is our nature. You dont have to worry about sinning, because Jesus died for you." Obviously you wouldnt tell someone that. That violates the very meaning of repentance. Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Now when we are saved, we cant come to God and say we have no sin, it would be lie, but if we confess our sins then He will forgive us and CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not SINNED (past tense) then we are calling God a liar, because his word is not in us. What did the psalmist say? "the word have I hid in my heart, that I MIGHT NOT SIN AGAINST THEE." If the word is on your heart, the love of God shed abroad in your heart by the Spirit, and you abide in Christ, how can you sin? It is not impossible however to sin, but possible to not sin (Again to qoute Jesse for I think the third time). I have never heard that one before. But when Paul was talking about that he was talking about the final ressurection of the dead. What else does Paul have to say about this... Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (To set the context) Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Hmmm... Does this not talk of ressurection life? Not the final ressurection as you suppose, but the LIKENESS of his ressurection. Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Which brings me to your indian analogy. Notice the indian didnt spit at the nice house. Why? Becuase he was no longer under the law, but under grace. Likewise we dont sin because we are not under law, but under grace. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. really, if you dont practice sin then you wont be prideful, or measure eachothers 'deposit' why? Because you will be of no reputation and really not care what others think. Who cares who frowns if God smiles.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 9, 2006 11:23:20 GMT -5
Hey Rev, you believe in perfection brother!! Praise God! Still think we have a disagreement as far as the definition of the terms. In the truest sense of the words, I still don't believe in "sinless perfection." And even if I did, I HAVE NOT reached that state myself, nor do I think it is NECESSARY for salvation. By the way, is this the same Evan as evanschaible?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 9, 2006 11:24:41 GMT -5
Yes, why?
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Post by Sean on Apr 9, 2006 12:36:27 GMT -5
Hello, I'm new to this site. I thought I would post part of what Zac Poonen wrote on this subject. You can read the whole thing if you go to his site. "We are told clearly that all Scripture has been given in order to make us `perfect' (2 Tim. 3:16,17 KJV). So, we could say that those who are not interested in Christian perfection will also not be able to understand God's word aright (see Jn. 7:17 also). The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; and God reveals His secrets only to those who fear Him (Psa. 25:14). " "This is the narrow gate that we have to go through first. Then comes the narrow way of sanctification. Those who do not pursue after sanctification will never see the Lord (Heb. 12:14). While it is possible to be perfect in our conscience here and now (Heb. 7:19;9:9,14), it is not possible to be sinlessly perfect until we have a glorified body at Jesus' return (1 Jn. 3:2). We can be LIKE Him only then. But we must seek to WALK as He walked, even now (1 Jn. 2:6). As long as we have this corruptible body, unconscious sin will be found in it, however much we may be sanctified (1 Jn.1:8). But we can be perfect in our conscience (Acts 24:16) and be free from conscious sin (1 Jn.2:1a), even now, if we are wholehearted (1 Cor. 4:4)" www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article26In Him, Sean
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 9, 2006 12:48:35 GMT -5
Just curious brother...that's all ;D
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Strange and peculiar fellow
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Post by Strange and peculiar fellow on Apr 9, 2006 14:28:26 GMT -5
Evan said...
exactly Evan...
When you judge others by the law... you judge the law...
The law brings knowledge of sin.. so that people spit, and spit, and spit, and spit more... it is their nature...
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might
But God gives a new nature....
one that does not consider others by their "measure of deposit"... but by the new law of the spirit..
Romans 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. Romans 2:26-28 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter) Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:28-30 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter) Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:5-7 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Colossians 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-15 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter)
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
This doesn't nullify the grace of God but proves it...
to re-quote your verse in the proper context of Roman's
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (To set the context)
This means once the new nature is applied... the written code is cancelled out...
If we continue in a life marked by sinfulness we cannot know God... because the new nature is not operating within us...
If we say we have no sin.. we make God to be a liar.. and the truth is not in us... because we have sin as long as we are in a body of death... but we do not obey its lusts but overcome them... until we are once, for all delivered from this body of death at the resurrection... The law of the spirit "keeps us" from the law of sin that wages war...
Because without the spirit... we would all perish...
but this is a "new" law.. that we did not have prior to God giving it to us... by his grace..
otherwise... there would be both physical death,a nd spiritual death...
But the Spirit of Christ keeps us ... until the promised hope of our calling.. if we remain in the faith...
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
our righteousness doe not come from us... but from Christ who dwells in us... and keeps us... and preserves us...
If any man boasts in his flesh... h doesn't understand grace...
But boast rather in the Lord.. this is beneficial for th hearer, and for the believer...
Otherwise men might misunderstand you.. and start a new doctrine that leads many away from the faith...
If you are trying to acomplish God's initiative work of grace.. through obedience to the law... you will be dried up and broken, and empty...
Rather obey the spirit... and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh...
Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 6...
1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Working out your salvation according to and by the law is working it out according to the flesh, and is carnal....
and I believe the doctrine of entire sanctification(which on this board is called holiness)... is carnal Christianity... and is not holy at all but earthly and unspiritual(although it has the outward appearance of wisdom according to the flesh)...
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 11, 2006 12:18:22 GMT -5
Why is perfection so hard to believe? God has made provision for every weakness we have. And to those who say, ‘Are you perfect’ (like I once did), or ‘show me one who is perfect’, I answer like Wesley, “You don't seek out of love, you are like Herod, you only seek the child to slay it.” If you don’t believe Jesus and the apostles, why would you believe if one were risen from the dead? And remember without love we are nothing but sounding brass, love is the bond of perfectness (Col. 3:14). But every infirmity we own as humans is provided for, Observe… ---- Our bodies…“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Rom. 8:11) “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” (Heb. 10:22) “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? …Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:1,2; 6,7) ---- Our minds…“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Rom. 12:2) “For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (I Cor. 2:16) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;” (Eph. 4:22-23) “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” (Phil. 2:5) “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” (Phil. 4:7) “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” (II Tim. 1:7) ---- Our Spirit/Heart (There are many, but here are a few)…“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (I Cor. 3:16) “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (I Cor. 6:11) “Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” (II Cor. 1:21,22) “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (II Cor. 7:1) “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” (Rom. 16) “And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.” (Rom. 5:5) ---- Temptation (not that we won’t have any, but we can endure it)…“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.” (Matt 6:13) “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (I Cor. 10:13) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (Jam. 1:12) “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the Day of Judgment to be punished:” (II Pet. 2:9) ---- If all of these factors come forward, as they should in the life someone “redeemed from all iniquity”, how can we “serve sin”? The only reason that you serve sin is that you are not dead to it.
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Strange and peculiar fellow
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Post by Strange and peculiar fellow on Apr 12, 2006 14:51:27 GMT -5
Evan there is no debate on those scriptures brother,
it is just very simple...
If you are preaching perfection.... (instead of sanctification)... you are preaching a fleshly, unbiblical concept...of which it is most certain, that no one has obtained.. with the exception of Jesus Christ...
Those scriptures are alluding to sanctification... not to perfection...
Why is it so hard to rely on grace and faith.. instead of on a doctrine?.. (which in a subtle way you are claiming to be true for you, that you have obtained it..., and hold)...
otherwise... if you are preaching something to which you have not obtained... that is a sin called hypocrasy...
simply put... I think you are stumbling over a human, carnal, and fleshly doctrine that is hindering...
rather than preaching something that you have obtained, is sound for growth and edification, and is holy and upright...like sanctification...
my friend there is no debate over sanctification... but on this board "holiness", is a cover for the doctrine of "entire sanctification"...
which is a carnal, unbiblical concept...
no one wants to behead anyone... but rather wants to stop the beheadings...
many a Christian I know have given up the faith as a result of a chasing after the wind for doctrines like this... and many a Christian has beheaded many others for not achieving what they believe is a state they dwell in...
but the fact is even the apostles did not shy away from their faults as they recorded them.. even the Apostle John worshiped an angel in ignorance... and didn't feel the need to edit it...
Brother, friend, it is time to stop striving after man made doctrines that exalt the believer.. and start humbling ourselves.. and relying on faith, and grace in Christ and start exalting our God!!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 12, 2006 14:59:41 GMT -5
You misunderstand what the Bible teaches brother. There is a difference between blatent sin or known sin, and sin that we know not is sin. Brother, do a study on the covenants. You cannot truly understand anything about scriptural holiness until you truly understand the covenants.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 12, 2006 23:07:20 GMT -5
Could you explain those differences with examples (blatent sin and sin we don't know) I hear the same thing (entire sinless perfection) and don't really think this is a Biblical concept. I see many examples of freedom from the bondage of sin (being a slave to sin) but don't see where anyone in the New Testament claiming to be sinless.
Thanks!!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 13, 2006 10:15:58 GMT -5
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be this minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal this even unto you." Philippians 3:15
Paul here claimed to be perfect which is why he could confidently say, "Be ye followers of me..."
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 13, 2006 23:54:45 GMT -5
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be this minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal this even unto you." Philippians 3:15 Paul here claimed to be perfect which is why he could confidently say, "Be ye followers of me..." I would be cautious about stating Paul's claims without reading the context of the scriptures Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, Phi 3:14 I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Paul was clear, very clear, that he had not reached perfection. Again, this is a example of the importance of pursuing Holiness (which is what we should be doing) not reaching some level of sinless perfection.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 14, 2006 8:16:54 GMT -5
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be this minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal this even unto you." Philippians 3:15 Paul here claimed to be perfect which is why he could confidently say, "Be ye followers of me..." I would be cautious about stating Paul's claims without reading the context of the scriptures Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, Phi 3:14 I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Paul was clear, very clear, that he had not reached perfection. Again, this is a example of the importance of pursuing Holiness (which is what we should be doing) not reaching some level of sinless perfection. I'd have to say AMEN to that Tony!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 14, 2006 8:26:42 GMT -5
And if you take that into context he is talking about the physical resurection, and not about the ability to stop sinning. Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
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Post by Tony Holland on Apr 14, 2006 8:41:56 GMT -5
Awesome stuff.....Thanks for that Josh....Had I put the context in context it would have been even more clear.
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Post by Evan on Apr 14, 2006 12:12:36 GMT -5
Notice the difference of wording, "ressurection of the dead" , "The power of his ressuerection". Maybe he was talking about the ressurection life (Romans 6).
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Post by Tony Holland on Apr 14, 2006 13:05:52 GMT -5
Maybe, I don't know......but it was still pretty clear that he plainly said that he wasn't without sin......agree?
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 14, 2006 15:00:18 GMT -5
I believe the perfection that he had not attained yet was the resurection from the dead (a glorified body). Not without sin. Do you think Paul meant that he transgressed the law frequently?
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 14, 2006 15:58:34 GMT -5
No, I don't think that Paul sinned regularly or frequently, but he does seem to be be saying that his rightousness is not from anything that he has done, but from the sacrafice that Jesus made on the cross.
My opinion and as I have said before on some other threads....I'm certainly no theological giant, but some of the scripture that I have seen presented as "clear evidence of the requirement of sinless perfection" is....well, not really clear. There is certainly a great deal of evidence for the requirement for us to constantly seek God and increase in holiness as we become more and more aware of our sinful condition.
Honestly, these discussions are really confusing. I hear (and I am paraphrasing of course) " I am sinless....well except the sin that I don't know about" I have said this before and I'll say it again. A true christian will not plan to sin. He or she will not realize that he/she is sinning until the act has been commited. Here is a example. I struggle with lust MUCH less than I did before being saved, and each day, that struggle is less, and less. God, of course is winning. Now, there are still some times that I will look up, see a attractive female, and lust. I immediatley avert my eyes and focus on something else, but the act has happened. It's not lust only if you look for more than 10 seconds. It's still sin and something that I have to ask God's forgivness for. This leaves the question...and you didn't pose it, but I have seen it suggested on other posts.......are you claiming that I am not saved because of that act. I'm not trying to be coy, just (still) trying to understand what exactly some of the folks mean when talking about this topic.
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