|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 6, 2006 18:30:29 GMT -5
Not five mintues ago (I am at my local church), A man who I thought was a very holy and Godly man came in and asked me what was new, and I told him I was discussing theology on this board, I read him my new post in the doctrine section "Righteous Sin?" and he got awfully angry and said "Be perfect, yeah right, pbbsss!" and stormed off. This must happen often to holiness believers, I guess I am just new to it. He said that we are slaves to our emotions because we cant give them up and we cannot not sin, he said our nature is sinful and we cant help it, all normal arguments, this is rediculous, why are people, even Godly people opposed to holiness?
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 6, 2006 18:50:14 GMT -5
The godly ones are NOT opposed to holiness, they are just aware that we sin ignorantly probably everyday. I have said this before, there is such a thing as sins of ignorance. It is still sin though. I believe in the sins of ignorance because it's in the bible, which 'holiness' folk don't like to admit to, but it's there nevertheless. Just because you don't see your sin, doesn't mean that it's not there.
Inspite of this, my most earnest desire is to be holy, and I seek to walk a 'blameless' life day by day.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 6, 2006 19:14:34 GMT -5
The godly ones are NOT opposed to holiness, they are just aware that we sin ignorantly probably everyday. I have said this before, there is such a thing as sins of ignorance. It is still sin though. I believe in the sins of ignorance because it's in the bible, which 'holiness' folk don't like to admit to, but it's there nevertheless. Just because you don't see your sin, doesn't mean that it's not there. Inspite of this, my most earnest desire is to be holy, and I seek to walk a 'blameless' life day by day. I agree brother. Would also like to add this: In the words of Brother Jed Smock, "As the Holy Spirit progressively reveals the character of God and our moral obligation, the Christian is responsible to conform to this greater understanding. There may be occasional transgressions or brief lapses into sin in the life of a saint but as he grows in grace and knowledge such incidents will be less likely. He will reach a point where sin virtually does not take place..." Now, THAT I can agree with Brother Jed
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 6, 2006 20:33:49 GMT -5
ignorantly? probably? sounds like speculation.
If the only sins you commit are the sins you don't know about, I think you are ok.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 7, 2006 8:02:01 GMT -5
It is largely assumption brother, but it is based on scripture and a recognition of the holiness of God. And I know, in a sense, i'm ok. I can only repudiate sins that I am aware of, but I am constantly desiring to know more of my errors.
|
|
|
Post by repentcanada on Apr 7, 2006 9:18:01 GMT -5
Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord
Hebrews 12:14
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 7, 2006 10:27:06 GMT -5
I didnt want to start the discussion back up, but if it must be that okay. Explain this verse, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt.5:48) Or in the original greek, "therefore ye shall be perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect." If we do what Jesus commands, and we can, then we will be perfect. Love is the bond of perfectness, and if you love Jesus then you will obey him. Right?
|
|
|
Post by Tony Holland on Apr 7, 2006 10:37:59 GMT -5
ignorantly? probably? sounds like speculation. If the only sins you commit are the sins you don't know about, I think you are ok. I think this is the question that will help me understand the idea of perfection a little better. I've seen the comment a couple of times concerning "known sins" or "sins we don't know about". For a Christian, aren't most sins unknown to us when we commit them. When I am prideful, it's usually afterwards that I realize that I was being being prideful, when I lust after another (which is something that I thank God has decreased dramaticly in me) I always avert my eyes, focus on the Lord, etc....but the act has already happened before the correction. Is perfection focused on the idea that we will not choose to sin after giving our lives to Christ? Thanks for your wisdom on this all!!
|
|
|
Post by Evan on Apr 7, 2006 10:45:19 GMT -5
Her are the questions that layed me out before God and finally borught me to the truth...
1) If you abide in Christ every moment of every day, how exactly can you sin? 2) If God's law is written on you heart, why dont you keep it? 3) If the HOly Ghost controls your mind, your actions, your speech and your thoughts, how can you sin? The Holy Ghost wont tell you to sin. 4) If you are a new creature then why do you live like the old one?
|
|
|
Post by Tony Holland on Apr 7, 2006 11:05:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I think I have seen those questions somewhere else on this board, and they are a good reflection, but the question is this...can we live up to that standard? Do we (certainly not me) say, "I don't sin, ever"?
Addressing number 4 specificly. After our conversion we are a different person. Everything and I mean everything changed. I went from enjoying sin and practicing it, well, pretty much often as I could to hating it and resisting it with all of my heart, but I unfortunatley can't claim that I am absolutley sinless now.
Is there anyone on this MB that will say, "I live a absolutle sinless life now.", and what was the process that got you to that point?
Thanks friends!!
|
|
|
Post by rsmportland on Apr 7, 2006 12:15:52 GMT -5
Just ask the guy - why is it the "holy" bible?
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 7, 2006 13:20:56 GMT -5
The contradiction with saying that you cant live without sin after conversion is that the Bible teaches the exact opposite. Those question were mine, I think I posted them somewhere else. But here is another one...
If your flesh is crucified, you soul broken, and your spirit aflame, and you obey the leading of the Holy Ghost, how can you sin?
There are factors of Christians Perfection, like love, that many people leave out, love is the bond of perfectness, meaning that if we love God over all, if we put God first in everything, and we love him with all of our heart then we wont want to sin, and it is possible to not sin. However not imossible to sin. If all the factors line up in your life, then you can conquer sin. Here is another one....
If the love of God is shed abroad in your heart by the Holy Spirit, then why do you rebel against God and show by your lifestyle that you dont love God?
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 7, 2006 14:32:30 GMT -5
Ok....now don't take this as arguing, because I am not. I'm pretty much a bag of hammers theologicaly, so I am basicly trying to get this broken down to the simpelest form.
I think I understood what you said to be this. With the Holy Spirit it is possible to stop sinning completley...zilch, zero, no sin, period......But its not impossible that we will sin.
If I have that right.....well, ok...I'll buy that. All things are possible through Christ. I'll asked this on the last post, and I'll ask again.....Has anyone achieved this here? Is anyone living a life without sin?
Thanks Evan!!!!!!!! I appreciate it Bro.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 7, 2006 18:15:32 GMT -5
If you live without sin, when you kneel in prayer do you ask God to cleanse you afresh in the precious blood of Christ? If so, why? If you are living without sin, what need have you of the blood?
|
|
|
Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 7, 2006 20:33:44 GMT -5
Rev K wrote:
Uhh... I agree with that.
|
|
|
Post by Brian Bomar on Apr 8, 2006 2:38:37 GMT -5
I wonder if the ol' prophet Isaiah thought he had reached perfection in his hell-fire preaching of chapters 1-5, until he finally saw the Lord, high and lifted up, and said "Woe is me!"
I believe in victory over sin, but I think the quote above from Jed, and some of the teaching of Zac Poonen is far more balanced with the teachings of the word of God than what I hear alot as holiness - which is really false holiness, and a work of the flesh.
In the Pharisees, their holiness was void of true Agape Love. Any holiness we have, void of that true love, is pharasaical. I say that without any disputing. Holiness without love is what the pharisees had.
Now I pose a question: Who here can say with a pure conscience before God that they love perfectly?
This means you are always, 100%, absolutely without fail:
Patient Kind Not jealous or envious Not boastful Not rude You do not demand your own You do not get irritated No pride whatsoever (exerpts from 1 Cor 13, NLT - sorry, it's a little easier to understand for this translation for the sake of posting).
Sin is falling short of the Glory of God. Jesus was the glory of God! (....being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person Heb 1:3).
Yes, the Word does tell us to walk as Jesus walked, but I think many of us who claim perfection in such an absolute since are really too blind to see the trappings of our own carnality. We think sinlessness is not doing this, not doing that, etc. etc....
However, perfection is not in doing or not doing, but in becoming like the Son of God in every single way. Have I been perfected, in the absolute image of Christ? No, I have my bad days when I am irritable, or I gossip about someone, or I get puffed up about this or that. Why? Well, I am not completely conformed to the image of Christ in His fullness. But that is what I seek, and I do seek it in fatih, through the Word of God, through prayer, through confession, through repentance.
I say this because the scriptures are more than just do's and dont's.
Becoming the man, Christ Jesus, is the reality. If we fall short of Him, in any way, then we are not perfect. If we think we have arrived, then we are woefully deceived, and we will not move another inch until we draw near to the Lord, see His Holiness, and cry out for God to purify our hearts by His blood, and ever fill us with His abundant love for all mankind.
Three mistakes we should avoid when measuring our love:
1. Do not mistake zeal, diligence, and passion for love.
2. Do not mistake zeal, diligence, and passion for love.
3. Do not mistake zeal, diligence, and passion for love.
Also, the Holy Spirit is not convinced when we try to prove our love by the things you do. I know many who say "Of course I love, I am doing this". We don't manufacture love by our works, we receive love as a gift through faith, and that manifests itself into good works.
I guess I'll end with that. Let us not say "I want to be perfect, I'll do better". That is just the law, and eventually it will cause you to die. Let us draw near, and be renewed every day in the Holy Spirit through faith, until men say of us, as they did of Stephen, that our face shines as the face of an angel.
|
|
|
Post by Brian Bomar on Apr 8, 2006 2:53:39 GMT -5
Jesse,
In the law, there were several different types of sacrifices. One was the guilt/trespass offering, another was the sin offering (there were others, but we will speak of only these 2 right now).
The guilt/trespass offering was for exactly what it sounds like. When you committed a sin, and you knew it, you brought a sacrifice for that sin.
What most of us are calling sin, and repenting of in the name of sin, really falls in the more specific category typologically as being "intentional sin". Messing up, doing wrong, violating God's law, etc. But the offering is NOT a sin offering, but a trespass offering. This is important, for trespass is to knowingly cross across God's standards.
Now, go back a chapter:
You get the point. Now...
So, in the law (which is a type and shadow of Christ), God has a specific sacrifice demanded for willful sin, which everyone makes when they know of it. But He also has a sort of blanket sacrifice (if you will allow me to use such terminology in this context) to cover all the sins.
Now these are types and shadows for us.
When we sin, and we know it, we come to the Lamb for a fresh cleansing. This comes through confession, repentance, and faith.
But who knows how many times we sin against God, and are totally unaware. This is why Jesus was made for us both our Guilt offering and our sin offering, as well as the other offerings that are perscribed in Leviticus.
Isn't that beautiful?
This also helps us understand Hebrews 10:26 better, seeing how the entire book of Hebrews is referring back to the law to help us understand Christ.
|
|
|
Post by brianbomar on Apr 8, 2006 3:00:12 GMT -5
He he....what I typed in was Zac P-o-o-n-e-n. A great brother from India. Silly boards....
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 7:07:13 GMT -5
Good posting Brian...I thank GOd for you and WELCOME to the MB my brother. I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said! And I wait anticipantly for any rebuttals...
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 8, 2006 12:35:55 GMT -5
The past, brother, the past. I am constantly finding past sin that went unconfessed brother. But I like the question that Jesse asks so often, If you have repented of that sin why do you keep going back?
As you know repentance means to leave the sins you've done before and show that you in earnest grieve by doing them no more. We have all sinnED and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom.3:23). Sinned being past tense. But IF, and again I say IF, any many sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (I John 2:1). Again I say, IF YOU SIN. Why didnt the apostle say when you sin?
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 14:38:58 GMT -5
ignorantly? probably? sounds like speculation. If the only sins you commit are the sins you don't know about, I think you are ok. So in your opinion ignorance of the law exempts you from the law? Oh hoh hoooohh boy... *grins* Your logic astounds meUnless of course you disagree with his statements, in which case I would love to hear your take on that question.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 8, 2006 16:18:20 GMT -5
Morluna, Do you have a conscience? If so then you cant plead igorance.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 8, 2006 16:55:50 GMT -5
You see, I think we often times forsake the simplicity that is in Christ. For one thing, a true Christian will never intentionally sin, "he cannot sin because His(God's) seed remains in him." If you are born of God than you wont practice sin becuase you are born of God. (I John 3:9)
The apostle John gives us a concrete definition of sin sayin, "Whosoever commiteth sin trangresseth also the law, for sin is transgression of the law." (I John 3:4)
Ill buy that, do you ever knowingly cross God's standards? If so how can yousay you love God? Jesus said "if you love me you will obey my commands."
That is the common misconception about Christian Perfection. People say that holiness people think they have arrived and consequently cannot grow, which would inevitable produce pride. The funny thing is, pride is sin. If we cry out to God to PURIFY our hearts will he not do it? If you cry out in faith and God doenst do it then either God is not faithful or something is wrong on our end.
The life of perfection increases the need for God more than ever before. You must always, at every moment adibe in him. Obey him in love through all things.
You cannot become the man Jesus, but you can be conformed into his LIKENESS.
But you set us on the same plane as the pharisees and we have holiness with love. "...Love which is the bond of perfectness" (Col. 3:14)
That sounds to me like a different and more complicated way to say exactly what Jesse meant.
Tragic mistake, all was good till now. Not a biblical belief. When presupposes a set time. Like WHEN I go to the store I will buy some milk.
John says IF you sin. IF, IF, IF. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (I John 2:1) It seems there is a huge misunderstanding about the astronomical differences of IF and WHEN.
|
|
|
Post by Juli on Apr 8, 2006 17:09:57 GMT -5
you know, as one who doesn't fully understand holiness or this teaching that stirs up so much division lately I must say, I thought of an interesting parallel and it is what made me want to discover thru the Word what the Truth is, as hard as it may be. We all know the saying about throwing a rock into a pack of dogs, the one who yelps is the one who gets hit. It is the same in preaching, the sinners who scream back and heckle got hit, we all know that. But I started thinking - was my initial reaction to this teaching of holiness (which was a yelp indeed) for the same reasons as these others? Because I was "hit"? I think it may have much to do with the matter. I do still think I am in the flesh at times, many times. I strive not to be, and certainly don't doubt my salvation as a result because I am convicted and do repent and do not REMAIN or continue in sin - but, I must confess, I would love to be free from sin the way Jesse and Miles and others claim Christians can and should be. So why am I resisting this teaching so much? That is GOOD NEWS brothers and sisters. So I decided that it is worth looking into. It certainly seems to be much like my initial conversion, which was a reocgnition that I was slave to sin and needed deliverance. I feel that once again in a way, if that makes sense. Any comments on this? WOndering what others think...
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 8, 2006 17:17:53 GMT -5
AMEN Juli. Praise God. I do recommend John Wesley's a plain account of Christian Perfection. ( www.onebodyevangelism.com/index.php?Prg=Instruction&WW=800&T=) It is the truth, I denied it and tried to refute it, but I soon learned that God's word is the final authority and God's word taught it. So I believe it and by the grace of God live it.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 8, 2006 17:29:05 GMT -5
I'm not following this sodmite thing at all...been too busy lately, but would some of you administrators GET THAT PERVERTED PICTURE OFF NOW BEFORE I VOMIT!!
And no, i don't HATE homosexuals, I HATE homosexuality!!
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 17:59:12 GMT -5
You see, I think we often times forsake the simplicity that is in Christ. For one thing, a true Christian will never intentionally sin, "he cannot sin because His(God's) seed remains in him." If you are born of God than you wont practice sin becuase you are born of God. (I John 3:9) I'm sorry, but that is total and utter bulls*it. Even if you are a born again Christian, you are not perfect, and there will be times when you will intentionally disobey your supposed laws of God. If you deny this, you are a hypocrite and a liar. Morluna, Do you have a conscience? If so then you cant plead igorance. I am far from ignorant by dear friend, and I don't see how you can make that rationalization at all. How can someone in Indonesia who has never seen a Bible or heard the word Jesus take it upon themselves to believe that he is the son of God and turn their life towards following his teachings? That makes no sense at all to me. If they have nothing to guide them, and no one to inform them, how can they be held accountable? I posted that link to note the conflicting views between what Rev K said in that thread and what Jesse said here. I see a contradiction in their two responses... It looks like Jesse is saying that a Christian can sin unknowingly and thus cannot repent for that sin, and thus is not held accountable for it. Is that what you were trying to say Jesse? Please correct me if I read that wrong. Can you guys explain that to me? I'm not following this sodmite thing at all...been too busy lately, but would some of you administrators GET THAT PERVERTED PICTURE OFF NOW BEFORE I VOMIT!! And no, i don't HATE homosexuals, I HATE homosexuality!! Awww... don't hate sweetie. Come on now, I could very well have posted the larger version. I minimized the size greatly. :B Your discomfort and intolerance will not silence me, like it or not. Besides, they're just kissing. Jesus kissed his disciples if I remember correctly. In many societies around the world, it is perfectly acceptable for two men to kiss on the mouth or to hold hands as they walk together. It's a display of brotherly affection. Nonetheless, I think we can safely assume those two are not displaying "brotherly" affection, haha... But what's wrong with that? They're lovers. Let them love, and if you don't like it you can scroll down the page and ignore it.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 8, 2006 18:12:39 GMT -5
If people who haven't heard the gospel are not accountable and are not sent to hell, then what's the point in preaching?? Better if we all just kept our mouths shut and let people go on ignorantly into heaven!!!
P.S. if you had any respect at all for people, you would remove that picture.
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 18:32:20 GMT -5
If people who haven't heard the gospel are not accountable and are not sent to hell, then what's the point in preaching?? Better if we all just kept our mouths shut and let people go on ignorantly into heaven!!! P.S. if you had any respect at all for people, you would remove that picture. Not gonna do it. ^_^ Not to be patronizing, but do you know what the main point of Christ's teachings were? I was taught this in church, by my youth director in Sunday school, so please refrain from disregarding it as heathen rubbish like you've chosen to do everything else I have said on this forum... The main goal, the most important part about His teachings, was to love God, love thy neighbor, and to use the teachings found in the Word of God in order to live the most enriching and spiritually rewarding life possible while on this Earth. He wanted us to turn to God for guidance on how to live life in the best possible way, so that we would not go through life lost without a sense of purpose. The goal of True Christianity is not to simply gain a bus ticket to Heaven! Therefore, yes, you SHOULD go and tell people about your beliefs. You should share your testimonies and share the love of Christ. The people of the world could benefit from His teachings while still in THIS life. But if you never get to them, and if they never hear the name Jesus, they should not be condemned to Hell because of that. This is my personal belief. The thing I am trying to stress here is that the end result, whether you get "saved" before you kick the bucket or not, should not be the most important thing. The most important thing is how the presence of spiritual understanding affects your quality of life in the here and now.
|
|
|
Post by tomah on Apr 8, 2006 18:42:08 GMT -5
That sounds like something Rick Warren or some of those psychology preachers would come out with.
The purpose of creation is to glorify God. This is done by obediance. God commands all men to repent and believe. If you don't do that then you are disobeying and therefore you deserve Hell.
Your own belief has no relevance to the rest of the world. Others have 'their' beliefs too, but it is all irrelevant. As far as wisdom, knowledge and understanding in this world goes, the only thing that is absolute is the Word of God. The Bible is clear, except ye repent...ye perish!
|
|