|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 21, 2006 16:08:00 GMT -5
Hi all,
What is your take on the use of the word "Pervert" to describe people involved in sexual sin?
I see it used pretty frequently on the board and it just seems a unneccesairly imflammatory and at the very least, unloving.
Just a thought....our message is offensive all by itself, no reason to add to it.
Love you all!! Tony
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 17:36:16 GMT -5
Tony,
Jesus called his disciples "faithless and perverse" because they could not cast the devil out of a boy (Matthew 17).
Do you think He would call hardened, careless, unrepentant pedophiles, homosexuals, and bestials perverts?
Pervert means to be corrupt or turn aside or away from what is good or true. Morally right.
In other words, fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, bestials.
Should we call it issues, problems, hurts, etc?
Why is it unloving to make sin appear as heinous as it is to God?
I think we should paint sin in its worst light, so the moral criminals will not try to defend it.
|
|
steve
New Member
Posts: 10
|
Post by steve on Apr 21, 2006 17:59:04 GMT -5
When you read that verse in Matt, you will notice the following, 14And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
It would appear that Jesus responded to the multitude when he said O faithless and perverse generation not his disciples. Later His disciples came to him and asked why they could not cast him out. Jesus replied it is because of your unbelief. The way I read that verse is that Jesus indeed called the multitude that approached him "Faithless and Perverse". I think using the term pervert is fine as long as you are speaking with love.
Steve
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 21, 2006 18:15:19 GMT -5
Ok, lot of ground to cover there Yes, Jesus did call the disciples faithless and perverse....and it was in complete reference to their faithlesness not to sexual sin. I guess the response would be to call anyone who is weak in their faith a pervert now? Be a whole lot of name calling going on here, huh? I'm not going to try to guess what Jesus would call those people. I will look at what He did. Did He call the women at the well a pervert....nope, sure didn't. Did He call the woman who was about to be stoned for her adultry a pervert....no, can't say that He did. Well, based on that I would have to answer your question "No, I can't see that He would." I would say....call it what it is. If you preaching to homosexuals, call them homosexuals...or by their name, I would humbly suggest that if you want to single a person out (or if they single themselves out by heckling) ask their name and call them by that. I didn't say quit preaching against sin...God forbid, but the message is offensive enough without adding to the tension. I feel that our job is to preach and warn the people of what God says will happen to them if they die in their sins without repenting and putting their faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ. I also agree that it is important to bring about the knowledge of sin so people will realize that they are sinners and need a savior. I'm not talking about just giving the good test. I know a number of preachers that do this in very different ways and it is effective. The only motive that I can imagine for calling people inflamatory names is to draw attention to yourself. Lets get real.....Do you honestly believe that calling a person a pervert makes them stop and think....."Wow, He's right, I am deeply involved in sexual sin and if I don't repent and put my trust in Jesus I will spend eternity in hell." OF COURSE NOT. I am a born again Christian who has a passion for reaching the lost and ensuring that they hear the full gospel....Now, I think that it is just obnoxious when I hear people being called perverts, can you imagine what the lost think. Brother, I respect your passion, but there is a point that it just becomes a bit much. Trust in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sins....don't detract from it by making statements that just make people think you are acting out of hate.
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 21, 2006 18:20:46 GMT -5
I think using the term pervert is fine as long as you are speaking with love. Steve Could you please use a sentence in which you call someone a pervert in a loving manner? It's not the word, saying "you are living in a perverse lifestyle" is one thing. Ouch, it hurts, but say this, "You are a pervert" and it takes on a life of it's own doesn't it? I'm not suggesting softening the Gospel in any way, shape or form, but ultimately the goal is for people to receive the good news of Jesus Christ......do you think that is more or less likely to happen after you have called them a pervert?
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 21, 2006 18:49:14 GMT -5
Romans 1:28-32: "Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
We've all read Romans 1 and know how God feels toward those who have rejected His grace. In fact He is very discript in calling sinners by their sin and not their name isn't He? I know I've said some things here that will make people respond, but I agree with taking the approach of the Spirit's guidance and there have been times that I've said things to someone, while sharing the Gospel with them, that I wouldn't say but God would. I am going to do a word study of this any takers? Tony, I used to do those perversions that you say you "don't know what Jesus would call those people". BY HIS GRACE and MERCY HE HAS SET ME FREE! I once was one of them...LOST(1 Cor 6:9-11) Praise the Holy Name of JESUS!!!! and I must say that we must speak what the Lord by the Holy Spirit gives us to speak and trust that the same Holy Spirit is working on the sinner across from us and they will become contrite and broken by the power of the uncompromised Word and Spirit... surrendering! Amen?
|
|
|
Post by steven on Apr 21, 2006 19:13:03 GMT -5
If you re-read my post you will see that I said using the term pervert is ok. I did not say calling someone a pervert is ok.
Example.
In todays world there are people controlled by perverted spirits lusting on children because of sexual sin. The result of fornication. Or,
That spirit controlling a lifestyle is a perverted spirit. I would be very careful in calling anyone names while preaching. That is not love. There is no point attacking the sinner.
Another example. In todays world saying Gay means homosexuality. However, the word gay means happy. If you use the worded pervert or perverse or perverted in proper context, there is nothing wrong with it.
I hope this clears up any misunderstanding an my end.
S
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 21, 2006 19:21:08 GMT -5
my apologies Steve, I misread what you were saying Bro
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 22:11:51 GMT -5
Tony,
The woman at the well and the women in adultery were repentant and humble. That is why Jesus dealt with them in the manner he did.
We do not have any record of Jesus in the flesh preaching directly to those involved in homosexuality, bestiality, and pedophilia. These are all perversions and the moral criminals have become perverts. A good, sharp, direct, pointed rebuke is just what many depraved people need to awaken them to the depths of depravity they have sunken to. I have found this to be helpful at times.
Open rebuke is better than secret love. Proverbs 27:5
Someone mentioned that calling people names is not love. Jesus did this frequently. Usually I do label a person according to their sin when I am preaching. Having a conversation is much different. I call homosexuals "homosexuals".
I consider homosexuality to be in the same category as pedophilia and bestiality. It is perverted and unnatural. They need to see how depraved they have become.
People will see your love for them as you continue to work with and interact with them over a period of time. I say this from experience of working the same area over a period of over two years on a weekly basis.
Tony, you mentioned that we should call people by their sin. Do you ever preach directly against the sin of homosexuality, do you encounter homosexuals and do you call them homosexuals?
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 21, 2006 22:13:46 GMT -5
We've all read Romans 1 and know how God feels toward those who have rejected His grace. In fact He is very discript in calling sinners by their sin and not their name isn't He? Hey Brother!!!! Good to see you hear. I'm actually glad that you brought up that scripture. It kind of ties in with Matthew 17 and many other scriptures in that it is a group being rebuked. No one specific, but the harsh words seem to always be addressing "all" of the people that fall into the category that is being spoken of. It seems when Jesus confronted a individual (woman at the well, adulterer about to be stoned, rich young ruler, etc) He was always direct, but gentle. I will say in agreement that if you REALLY believe that the Holy Spirit is leading you to call someone a pervert.....well, I am certainly no one to argue that. I realize that God is much, much bigger than I am, but it's pretty tough for me to get my hands around receiving direction from the Lord to do such a thing.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 21, 2006 22:21:48 GMT -5
Romans is a letter written to Christians and Romans 1 is not Paul speaking to the unsaved in an Open Air setting. I don't think I will ever call someone a pervert. I don't think it is necessary to show them that they are a sinner in need of a Savior. However, I don't think that I can say it is Wrong per say. I also can't say that it is right in ever situation. I think you need to let the Lord lead. Walk in the Spirit and be led by the Spirit...and Tony, I just want to say that I thank God for you brother... ;D
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 21, 2006 22:28:09 GMT -5
Your definition of perversion was this: Pervert means to be corrupt or turn aside or away from what is good or true. Morally right. Now rest assured that I am not trying to convince you to call everyone perverts, but with this definition, everyone who commits any sin is a pervert...yes?
Could you give me examples of when Jesus did this when speaking to a individual and not about a group? I'm not finding any....I may be very wrong on this, but not finding any.
....and fornication and adultery (which has to include lust) right. Actually, when did one sin become worse than another? James 2:10
Honestly, the only time I have encountered a homosexual has been in a one to one witnessing encounter and yes, along with other sins I confronted her directly about homosexuality. It was the sin in her life that was the best example of openly living in sin, minute and minute, day after day, year after year. I'm not one of those who think that you don't have to mention homosexuality in a preaching/witnessing encounter. I know that there is a lot of teaching that says "skip that sin and just focus on the others" I say, hit the obvious sin first because thats probably the biggest one in their life.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 21, 2006 23:55:37 GMT -5
Tony,
Actually I used a definition from the dictionary so technically it was not my definition. Yes, though that would make any sin a perversion since it is not morally right. Technically, then this would make them perverts, although like yourself I do not think it is necessarily appropriate or effective to call all sinners perverts.
Jesus called individuals devils. Herod a fox. Samaritan woman a dog. I do not really see the difference in calling a group names or an individual names. Paul called someone a child of the devil in Acts 13.
It is natural for a man to have sex with a woman. It is not natural for a human to have sex with the same sex, a child, or an animal. Fornication and adultery are sins to be sure, and people who engage in them are acting pervertedly, however it is natural for the opposite sexes to be physically attracted to each other. Adultery and fornication are the selfish fulfillment of a natural desire. Pedophilia, bestiality, and homosex are not natural desires.
All sins are equal in the sense that they can all send a person to hell. All sins are not equal in that not all sins receive equal punishment. Not all crimes receive equal punishment. There are degrees of punishment in hell and degrees of rewards in heaven. See Luke 12:47-48 and Romans 2:5-6.
I appreciate your honesty Tony in answering my question. I am not against what you do or what you think I should do. I used to think exactly the same way. However, I have spent much time preaching to homosexuals in a beehive of homosexual activity (parades and Lincoln Road, South Beach). I think at times it is beneficial and necessary to label them as perverts. Generally I do not and just refer to them as homosexuals (I never use words like fag, queer, etc). However, when there is debased homosexual activity going on blatantly and the multitudes are defending the sin as being ok, it is sometimes a good idea to shift gears to demonstrate the absurd by being absurd. I believe there were times Jesus did this as well as the prophets (Elijah mocking Baal's prophet's). I think if Jesus was on the earth today He would not always speak in King Jame's English.
Usually people who post saying some of the things you are saying do not often preach to homosexuals. This in and of itself does not mean you are wrong and I am right. I just think you might gain a different perspective if you preach to large amounts of homosexuals.
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 22, 2006 0:21:47 GMT -5
Well, looks like we are pretty much at nothing more than a difference of styles.....which is a ok thing. I have no problem at all conceding that there is a possibility that I may have a complete different view on the word if I was involved in some of the open air situations that you are involved in. I don't see the need in the added provocation, but I do feel that you are serving the Lord as he is leading you, so I don't question your motives at all. I do pray that God will lead you on this issue in accordance with His will....whether that falls into my opinion or not ;D Blessing Brother and keep preaching!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 22, 2006 8:48:57 GMT -5
Romans is a letter written to Christians and Romans 1 is not Paul speaking to the unsaved in an Open Air setting. I don't think I will ever call someone a pervert. I don't think it is necessary to show them that they are a sinner in need of a Savior. However, I don't think that I can say it is Wrong per say. I also can't say that it is right in ever situation. I think you need to let the Lord lead. Walk in the Spirit and be led by the Spirit...and Tony, I just want to say that I thank God for you brother... ;D yes I agree with you in that Romans is written to the church as is the entire Bible, Amen. I am not sure what you are meaning by that statement. We use the Word in all situations, in season and out of season, in open air and in 1to1 etc. I certainly am not saying to call someone a pervert who is in sexual sin either. It is the Word that brings salvation and it was by someone using the Word that pointed out my sin of sexual immorality to me that was when was I broken. We have to make a stand. If we don't know what we need to know about God's truths then we will be ill equipped in any situation. If the Word says a person who has married a divorced woman is an adulterer then we must not compromise that truth. If we love our neighbors we will speak the truth to them. There is way too much compromise in the church and we are paying the price because of that. That's a whole nother topic though. The bottom line is the more of the Word we have in us the more we will be used to speak against every sin, false teaching, false doctrine etc. Without it we err.
|
|
|
Post by Miles Lewis on Apr 24, 2006 19:01:01 GMT -5
Like when someone in the open air moons me or flashes me or tries to grab my rear... I just might give them an open rebuke and say, "Sir, you are a pervert." I love them and I hope they become convicted for their perverted deeds. Sometimes I make it a point to say that homosexuality is not a preference, it is a perversion. I guess it could be more loving if you use the Sir or Ma'am before calling someone a pervert. I don't always do that though. I also don't always call someone a pervert. I am sure I have but I can't think of the last time I did. I don't think it is wrong to use that word. Provides an accurate description. Miles
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 25, 2006 0:04:18 GMT -5
So much of this is so subjective. It depends so much on the circumstance, the situation, the crowd, etc. What is perfectly appropriate in one setting is not appropriate in another setting.
I think what concerns people is they think we just run out and do a bunch of things in the flesh, with no purpose, no plan or anything, just act on our emotions.
I am always trying to learn more and become more effective, but everything I do when preaching is calculated and has a purpose.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 25, 2006 0:31:15 GMT -5
So much of this is so subjective. It depends so much on the circumstance, the situation, the crowd, etc. What is perfectly appropriate in one setting is not appropriate in another setting. I think that this is the key. We need to be careful that we are always walking in the Spirit so we will be led by the Spirit in everything we say and do when we are preaching. This all starts with prayer of course. We also need to be careful not to talk badly about what other preachers are doing until we know the full story...
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 25, 2006 9:17:53 GMT -5
These are some really good comments and I realize also that I should have been more clear about the situations that I have seen that really bothered me.
Miles--The example that you used about calling a person a pervert after they have mooned you or performed some other obscene gesture seems to be the right use of the word. Humerous for others, disarming to the person who is heckling you with their body parts and convicting as a afterthought.
Micah--You are likely correct in that the issue is subjective. I stand by my opinion that I can't imagine too many situations in which that would be used though. :-)
RevK--You are exactly right that we need to know the whole story before we are criticial of something that another preacher does. That leads me to do what I should have done in the first place and describe the situations where I see this that bothers me and let the group respond to that.
Situation 1: This message board. I have seen some post where the word was being used to describe another person, ie, "We need to pray for the perverts here". That seems to be a case where we know that it is going to be read by some of the non-believers here and it doesn't appear that it would do anything more than inflame them.
Situation 2: I have seen, and listened to audio of, preachers using involved in exchanges such as this. Preacher: ....so you are a homosexual? Listener: Yes, so what. Preacher: Then you are a pervert and a abomination to God. Listener: Why are you calling me names? Preacher: Because that it what you are.......
What's wrong with this? The guy never did hear that he was a abomination. He never heard that his sin offends God....all he heard was someone call him a pervert and after that he is locked down and not willing or ready to recive anything else that the Preacher has to say.
Just my opinion on this, and as was pointed out, I haven't done a lot (which is saying one encounter) of preaching or witnessing to Homosexuals.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 25, 2006 13:41:24 GMT -5
If I mention a certain sexual sin and a person cheers, goes crazy, puts on a big show, I may call them a pervert.
|
|
|
Post by messengermicah on Apr 25, 2006 13:50:07 GMT -5
Tony,
You have to be careful watching and judging things just by clips. You do not know all that took place before the clip you are seeing played. The preacher may have preached about the topic for 15 minutes with the person sitting there and then walks up for a one on one exchange with the preacher.
Many times I have been preaching with people standing, listening, heckling, interacting for long periods of time and telling me all the kinds of sin they are involved in and it is all a big joke. Then when I label them someone will walk up on the scene and accuse me of labeling someone that I did not know anything about. They were not there for the last 20 minutes so they do not know what I know about that person. Also, (this is not an excuse to run around calling people anything you want) sometimes the Holy Spirit can supernaturally reveal information to you about a person.
I have had so many times where a person would tell me they are a Christian and answer all my questions correctly, but in my spirit I knew they were not a biblical Christian. Everytime this has happened as the conversation continued they ended up cursing me.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 25, 2006 13:55:37 GMT -5
Calling someone a pervert, at the right time in the right situation is fitting.
Certainly not something we should use flippantly and not something we should say just to inflame someone.
But pervert sure is an ugly word huh? It's a really negative word. And that is why it is so fitting to describe someone involved in sexual sin. The world tries to make negative things look positive by calling them "adult" films or "adult" Shops or "Gentlemen Clubs". But we as preachers need to make negative things actually sound negative, calling them adult-ery shops and adult-ery films. Or the "Gentlemens Club" I will often tell the crowds in the open air that a more fitting name is "Dirty Pervert Club". It makes you a pervert, not an adult or a gentlemen.
We need to be truthful and loving in our preaching. Love is truthful.
But like I said, at the right time in the right situation it's fine. Jesus calling the generation of His day perverse I see as timely and fitting.
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 25, 2006 15:49:49 GMT -5
Totally agree. That is a dangerous thing that I have been guilty of in the past. (Even had to apologize to Jesse, Miles and Jeff for something very similar) In this case though, the audios and video was in length and in context. It appeared that the preacher was using the exchange in a effort to draw more people to the crowd. Not saying for sure that is what happened, but that is what it appears to be.
I would pray that this is also a lesson to us. Many people may only have the opportunity to see or hear bits and pieces of what we are preaching and will form a opinion based on that. Let every word we speak be truthful while reflecting the spirit of Christ.
I wholeheartedly agree that sin need to be called exactly what it is. Watering down the truth of sin simply gives a out to people who live a sinful lifestyle and it is important that the message be clear. I also agree that love is truthful....Love is also sometimes gentleness and kindness.
You have each given a consistent analysis that there is a time and a place to use that word. I believe that each of you are men of God and I trust that the Holy Spirit will guide each of you in your preaching to others.
I thank each of you for answering God's call in obedience and I pray that you don't think that I am critical of any of you. I realize that my initial posts on this subject were strong and I stand by my statements, but woe to me if anything that I would say would stand between you and what God has told you to do. There are two things I know for sure.
1) God is all powerful all knowing and all loving, and supernaturally leads His children to carry out his will.
2) I am not God.
Everything that I have said has been my opinion, and I pray that it causes none of you frustration, but simply something to reflect on.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 25, 2006 16:10:18 GMT -5
Which audio/video is this? I'd like to see it myself. Is it available online?
|
|
|
Post by tonyholland on Apr 25, 2006 16:14:46 GMT -5
Which audio/video is this? I'd like to see it myself. Is it available online? I'll do some hunting for you probably tomorrow night. It was a tall blonde guy, dressed very nicely....but I can't for the life of me remember his name. It was about a year ago when I saw it (this is when I was getting really interested in open air preaching).
|
|