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Post by evanschaible on May 9, 2006 13:24:34 GMT -5
Yeah, you read right. My church is building a coffee shop IN OUR NEW ADDITION, WITH A DRIVE THRU. I am ashamed and embarrassed. Here is what they said, notice on the link, it only says 'through'. It is either a typo, or someone is trying to hide something, or I dont know. They made it look as if it was suppose to look that way, but trust me, THERE IS A DIVETHRU. This and more can be found at, www.messiahbc.org/member/twam.shtml
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 14:56:29 GMT -5
Not to pop off topic, Evan, but in your church's statement of faith I'd like to know what is meant by one point in the statement: The Holy Spirit delivers spiritual new life to you through His Word and Sacraments. He brings you back to life! New life through what Sacraments? I sincerely don't get it...or at least I don;t think I do
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 9, 2006 15:26:41 GMT -5
Yeah, you read right. My church is building a coffee shop IN OUR NEW ADDITION, WITH A DRIVE THRU. I am ashamed and embarrassed. Here is what they said, notice on the link, it only says 'through'. It is either a typo, or someone is trying to hide something, or I dont know. They made it look as if it was suppose to look that way, but trust me, THERE IS A DIVETHRU. Well, there were no architectural plans or photos of construction on the website, so I couldn't tell. But I should point out that "through which" is a prepositional phrase meaning, "by way of which" or "using this." For instance, the sentence could easily read, "which will also service a new coffee house by way of which we seek to bless..." So I was wondering if this is the sole evidence you are using to determine that, or did you learn of it somewhere else? If so, what is your objection to serving coffee to the community? It might just bring people into the parking lot, then into the store. That's why Wal-Mart sells gas at a loss, because if you can get people into the parking lot, it is likely they will stay for other things.
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Post by cervyy on May 9, 2006 15:29:05 GMT -5
Looks like a marketing ploy to me ... and maybe a good one! I knew religion and sales went hand-in-hand
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 9, 2006 15:30:49 GMT -5
Looks like a marketing ploy to me ... and maybe a good one! I knew religion and sales went hand-in-hand Amen!
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Post by messengermicah on May 9, 2006 15:33:01 GMT -5
Well Evan join the club! I guess most of us who attend local churches are subject to similiar abominations.
It is good to stay for a while and try to make a positive difference, but there is a point at which they will not yield, and then you cannot waste precious time, effort and money pouring yourself into some worldy social club or business.
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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 22:06:13 GMT -5
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Post by evanschaible on May 10, 2006 16:25:45 GMT -5
Listen, trekker, and the other false convert,
I didnt post this to debate linguistics. I attend that so called church, talk much with the pastor, and attend the voters meetings. I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! They are building a drive thru, that isnt the evidence, but it did say that it had one at one point in time. I care not for your prideful look how smart I am debates. Your worldly wisdom makes you look like a fool. Again I say, they are building a drive thru and I know they are because I GO THERE.
What is my problem with a coffee shop in a church? Oh boy, dont even get me started. Coffe shops are for the WORLD, not the church. Jesus drove men from the temple for practically this same thing. You turn to Christ, repent and be born again and then come and talk to me heathen.
Dan,
Yeah, I have dicussed the catechism over and over again. It is a Lutheran church and Luther taught salvation by sacremants just as the Roman Catholics did and still do. They dont blatently say they do, but they do. They belive in consubstantiation as well. The only problem with leaving is I have grown up in that church andI attended when it was still a church. But, I hope and pray for revival. That is all that will help it.
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Post by rsmportland on May 10, 2006 16:43:28 GMT -5
Cup o' Josephus?
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 10, 2006 21:03:12 GMT -5
what is wrong with serving the community and employing some christian teens?
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Post by ejuliot on May 10, 2006 21:11:10 GMT -5
what is wrong with serving the community and employing some christian teens? I thought you were against spending money on buildings...didn't you say just give it all to the poor? So it isn't ok to spend money on churches and neglect the poor but it is okay to spend money on a coffee house and neglect the poor?
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Post by cervyy on May 10, 2006 21:31:00 GMT -5
what is wrong with serving the community and employing some christian teens? I thought you were against spending money on buildings...didn't you say just give it all to the poor? So it isn't ok to spend money on churches and neglect the poor but it is okay to spend money on a coffee house and neglect the poor? there just won't ever be enough money to do everything that would bring the poor out of poverty and all those good deads ... bah. 'Sides, the poor need coffee to don't they? Just no Irish coffees!!
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 10, 2006 21:41:30 GMT -5
what is wrong with serving the community and employing some christian teens? I thought you were against spending money on buildings...didn't you say just give it all to the poor? So it isn't ok to spend money on churches and neglect the poor but it is okay to spend money on a coffee house and neglect the poor? Actually, that was me. Besides which Evan, I remember being totally shocked to learn that a church in a neighboring town had a skateboarding team. I was incredulous to the fact that a church should be delving into what was obviously a hoodlum sort of thing. At any rate, my Baptist friend rebuked me by asking, "DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAVED BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SKATEBOARDING TEAM?" And yes, she was yelling. My references to marketing still stand. If the drive through brings people to church, why are you complaining about evangelism?
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Post by evanschaible on May 11, 2006 17:34:00 GMT -5
BE NOT CONFORMED TO THE WORLD, BUT BE YE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND
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Post by ejuliot on May 11, 2006 18:31:38 GMT -5
I thought you were against spending money on buildings...didn't you say just give it all to the poor? So it isn't ok to spend money on churches and neglect the poor but it is okay to spend money on a coffee house and neglect the poor? Actually, that was me. Besides which Evan, I remember being totally shocked to learn that a church in a neighboring town had a skateboarding team. I was incredulous to the fact that a church should be delving into what was obviously a hoodlum sort of thing. At any rate, my Baptist friend rebuked me by asking, "DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAVED BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SKATEBOARDING TEAM?" And yes, she was yelling. My references to marketing still stand. If the drive through brings people to church, why are you complaining about evangelism? Sorry, wrong person ;D... Actually the chances of the person coming to the church are very slim. It is more effective to go to those who are unsaved then try to get them to come to you...case and point: If I went fishing and I put a bunch of bait in my boat the chances of a fish jumping into my boat are very slim, but if I put the bait on hooks and threw it out in the water where the fish are I will catch A LOT more fish. Churches can try to use bait (coffee shops) to draw the unsaved in but what usually happens is that those who are saved come to the coffee shop and the unsaved that do come to the coffee shop usually don't come to the church (there is a church where I live that has a coffee shop so I have seen this first hand). It would be more effective and much less expensive for them to go out on a street corner and proclaim the gospel to them (it doesn't cost anything and many more people will hear the gospel)! The complaint is that this is sloppy and unbiblical evangelism. I heard this analogy once and thought it was very true: The police department decided that they needed to catch more criminals because the city crime rate was much too high. So, they decorated the police station, they put soft cushions and new toilets in the jail cells. They bought spiffy, shiny new uniforms for the entire squad and even upgraded to Mercedes Benz squad cars. Then they put up fliers all over the city to invite the criminals to come to the police station. They police even installed strobe lights, fog machines, and hired a DJ for the night. The police officers had a great time at the party but no criminals showed up! They couldn't figure out why this would be the case since they had put so much money and time into drawing the criminals in! Of course it is ridiculous to think that the police would try to draw criminals into the police station. The police go out into the city where the criminals are and bring them to the police station. In the same sense sinners are not going to come to a church no matter how fancy it is! A coffee house is not going to cause sinners to come...the reason being is that a church is the last place a sinner wants to be (just like a police station is the last place a criminal wants to be). It is more effective for the church to go out (mark16:15) into the world and bring sinners into the church. I hope that helps just a bit.
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Post by cervyy on May 11, 2006 20:45:04 GMT -5
If they didn't want to come to the church, I would think they would want even LESS for the church to come to them.
Making available something they would want that the church could give to them, would encourage them to come.
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Post by ejuliot on May 11, 2006 21:13:41 GMT -5
If they didn't want to come to the church, I would think they would want even LESS for the church to come to them. Making available something they would want that the church could give to them, would encourage them to come. You know, I hate getting shots! I absolutely hate them, but I have severe allergies so I have to get 3 shots once a week! If I don't I will get sick. You see sinners may not want to have anything to do with Jesus Christ but they NEED him just like I NEED my shots. If the people at my doctor's office did not pursue me (and they do at times) I would probably not get my shots even though I will get sick. In the same sense sinners are comfortable in their sin, but it is killing them. I do not hold a grudge against the nurse in the doctors office who is always reminding me to get my shots or the nurse who sticks that horrible needle in my arm because I know they are doing it to help me. In the same sense those who go out into the world as Christ commanded are seeking to give the shot of the gospel to a sick people who are dying and going to hell. Mark 2:17 "When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." But the main point is that Jesus, Paul, Peter, and countless more went OUT as they were commanded to because there they could reach the sick, but the "evangelism" that tries to draw sinners in for the most part just draws the healthy and not the sick. It is therefore rendered ineffective and costly.
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Post by ejuliot on May 11, 2006 21:15:25 GMT -5
P.S. sorry if my analogies make absolutely no sense. They always make sense in my head but my friends always tell me that they don't when they come out of my mouth. But I tried really hard. ;D
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Post by cervyy on May 11, 2006 21:26:29 GMT -5
No, those were analogies were good actually.
But, like, someone could hate doctors and shots and all those things, go and get the shot because they know they need or, like they might die AND then never see the doctor again and continue hating them. But they got the shot and now they're okay.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 12, 2006 1:47:46 GMT -5
Well Juliot, when you make an analogy about church, perhaps it would be better to not to use the imagery of a jail cell.
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Post by ejuliot on May 12, 2006 3:18:42 GMT -5
Well Juliot, when you make an analogy about church, perhaps it would be better to not to use the imagery of a jail cell. Ha ;Dhahaha! Good point!
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Post by evanschaible on May 12, 2006 10:53:14 GMT -5
Juiet,
I wish the entire church of Jesus Christ could get a grasp on your last two posts. I have to confess that right now I can honestly say with Leonard Ravenhill "I am embarassed to be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ today, because I belive it is an embarrasment to a holy God."
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Post by orchid on May 12, 2006 23:04:44 GMT -5
Listen, trekker, and the other false convert, Coffe shops are for the WORLD, not the church. Jesus drove men from the temple for practically this same thing. You turn to Christ, repent and be born again and then come and talk to me heathen. If you're going to use this line of thinking to justify your anger towards adding a simple coffee shop to a place of congregation then maybe you should also look at some of the other "worldly" things that the church enforces on it's followers. Try say, tithing. What use exactly does God have for earthly money? The printed money of the United States is OF THE WORLD and not the church. It's just a coffee shop. I'm sure even God enjoys a cup o' joe once in a while.
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Post by cervyy on May 12, 2006 23:35:51 GMT -5
I always imagined God enjoying a nice soothing tea ... something raspberry or blackberry flavored ... mmm, now I'm thirsty!
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Post by orchid on May 12, 2006 23:37:31 GMT -5
Perhaps he's a pink lemonade kind of guy
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 10:36:27 GMT -5
I don't know, I think Waffle House coffee is the nectar of the gods. Surely YHWH or Elohim spends late nights in WaHo after everyplace else has closed.
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Post by orchid on May 16, 2006 21:12:30 GMT -5
Worship at the bowling alley, and sunday school at Waffle House
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Post by Morluna on May 17, 2006 8:34:32 GMT -5
You don't have to yell... he didn't know...
Personally I think it's horrible... if done the way you described it. What would be really cool would be for the church to give away coffees and then maybe have some kind of Bible study people could stick around for if they wanted. And you could always take donations to help pay for the coffee. People will be happy to give, mostly. Anything being sold out of the church just rubs me the wrong way...
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