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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 15:14:39 GMT -5
So, I ahve been thinking about this....There has been a craze lately for "Christian" Churches to be BIGGER. It seems like every church I have been to is either starting a building project, in the middle of one, or just finished one. Some of the churches in my area have spent millions of dollars to build elaborate buildings and others hundreds of thousands of dollars. My dad said something to me about this the other day, he said God sees it as robbing him of His money when the church abuses its funds. Should we tithe to our church if they are robbing God or should we tithe to a ministry that is serving God instead? What thinks ye?
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Post by messengermicah on May 9, 2006 15:26:59 GMT -5
Great question and great timing. I totally understand your concern. My wife and I have been attending a local church for over 4 years now. We were married there and my wife is employed there.
I have always tithed to the local churches of which I have been a part of so I have no problem with the idea of tithing. I was at one church for 14 years, another for 1, and this one for the last 4. I do not change churches all the time and have been very supportive in other ways to the churches.
Towards the end of last year, however, I became convicted in my conscience of tithing to that church because it seemed the emphasis was so much on the building of a building, while the members are so worldly, disobedient, compromised, or in some cases outright sinful (if you are saying why do you go there, there are some godly people there and it is probably one of the better churches in the area).
I do not think it is right to pay tithes to a ministry where the emphasis is not on raising up laborers and disciples but rather social club members. Why does the mentality of these churches have to be one of a hospital instead of a training barracks for soldiers.
I cannot pay tithes to a church like that anymore. Let the consequences be what they may.
I know in my heart I would love to be able to throw myself into the work of a local church that is actually focused on being the church and not a social club or business.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 9, 2006 15:30:22 GMT -5
So, I ahve been thinking about this....There has been a craze lately for "Christian" Churches to be BIGGER. It seems like every church I have been to is either starting a building project, in the middle of one, or just finished one. Some of the churches in my area have spent millions of dollars to build elaborate buildings and others hundreds of thousands of dollars. My dad said something to me about this the other day, he said God sees it as robbing him of His money when the church abuses its funds. Should we tithe to our church if they are robbing God or should we tithe to a ministry that is serving God instead? What thinks ye? Why build buildings at all? I have noticed everytime I go to visit my parents, there is a church meeting in just about every school. As a matter of fact, Sunday I drove past the high school that I graduated from and EVERY PARKING SPACE WAS TAKEN. Similarly, the middle school and one elementary school that I went to have churches in them. Also, I noticed sunday that there is a new church meeting in the cineplex by the mall. Honestly, couldn't you guys just meet in tents and give all of your money to the poor? Maybe you don't even need to worship. You could worship God by feeding God's sheep.
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Post by messengermicah on May 9, 2006 15:36:11 GMT -5
I think that is the point we are making.
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Post by josefurban on May 9, 2006 17:37:22 GMT -5
So, I ahve been thinking about this....There has been a craze lately for "Christian" Churches to be BIGGER. It seems like every church I have been to is either starting a building project, in the middle of one, or just finished one. Some of the churches in my area have spent millions of dollars to build elaborate buildings and others hundreds of thousands of dollars. My dad said something to me about this the other day, he said God sees it as robbing him of His money when the church abuses its funds. Should we tithe to our church if they are robbing God or should we tithe to a ministry that is serving God instead? What thinks ye? I have been terribly grieved over the general subject of the modern church, especially in America, as of late, so if I sound too blunt, then please forgive me. First of all, permit me to quote a statement I have made in the recent past: The church has never been and never will be an institutional building that is based on worldly principles to operate. The church is the living, breathing, moving, active BODY OF CHRIST. It is composed of many members, and they each need one another. The Lord never commanded His saints to build buildings in the New Testament. Not even once. The whole modern institutional setup and the system of tithe established in the modern church is completely wrong according to the New Testament. AW Tozer said when referring to the modern church structure and system, "We must have a new reformation. There must come a violent break with the irresponsible, amusement-mad paganized psuedo-religion which passes today for the faith of Christ and which is being spread all over the world by unspiritual men employing unscriptural methods to achieve their ends." Leonard Ravenhill said, "The church as we know it today seems a million miles from the New Testament church. That may be a great generalization, but I will stand on it. There is a gulf between our average Christianity and the church of the New Testament that makes the Grand Canyon look like a cavity in someone's tooth." I agree wholeheartedly. There are many culturally engrained doctrines that have been attached to "Christianity" in America as a result of the terrible condition of the church as a whole. I believe tithing is one of them, and here's why I am absolutely against tithing: In the Old Covenant, the tithe was part of the Mosaic Law dealing with National Israel. It was never a part of the universal moral Law, it is strictly national and thereby applies only to the Nation of Israel. To enforce tithing we must also enforce the whole Law, including the most important initiation rite: circumcision. Remember, whoever failed to tithe was only under a curse, but whoever failed to be circumsized would be utterly CUT OFF from the Lord and from the commonwealth of Israel. However, the NT, specifically the writings of Paul, clearly refute physical circumcision and teach to the contrary. We cannot throw away the parts of the old law that we don't like and conveniently keep the ones we do. That would be heresy, yet that is just what tithing is. Paul never commanded Christians to tithe, not once in all the NT. Gentiles were never commanded to obey Jewish ceremonial and national law in the NT. No true Bible-studying Christian can argue that tithing is a work of the Law. It is absolutely and unrefutably clear. Therefore, with tithing as a work of the Law in mind, hear the words of the Apostle Paul in Galatians: Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.Those who tithe to keep the law are under a curse because they don't continue in ALL the things written in the book of the law to do them. Contrary to being under a curse if you don't tithe, those who have been justifed by faith in Christ are under a curse if they DO tithe to retain righteousness yet ignore all the rest of the law according to the above Scripture. Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband. Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. When I preach against the bondage of tithing and exalt the liberty that is in Christ, I am undoubtedly persecuted for it all the time, just as he that was after the flesh persecuted him that was after the Spirit, but I say, CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON! We who are in Christ are children of the free woman! I don't think it could be clearer. Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? I believe the answer is clear. So if we are not commanded to tithe, you may ask, how do we support the ministry of feeding the poor, clothing widows and orphans, and providing for Gospel workers as the NT commands? The answer is simple: by a generous, loving, and willing heart that loves your neighbor as yourself. If you truly obey the 2nd greatest commandment and love your neighbor as yourself, you will be MORE THAN WILLING to give generously as much as you possibly can. You won't be limited to 10 %. You will only be limited by your income. You will be eager to spend as little money as possible on yourself to supply your basic needs, and eager to give away all the rest out of true LOVE and not out of obligation to the LAW!!! Hallelujah! Which brings us to Jesus' commands regarding stewardship: Luk 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luk 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.Jesus commands us to sell our possesions and give to the poor! Why on earth would He do that? Because He knows as born-again-transformed-by-grace Christians we would be eagerly itching to show our love by any and all measures possible! He also knows that if our treasure is on earth, then our heart will be also and we will end up being thrust out of the Kingdom of God for having our hearts set on worldly things. Therefore, it is impossible to have accumulated worldly goods and possesions and have our hearts on the things of Heaven at the same time according to His own words. Notice the above Scripture is NOT a suggestion: it is recorded in the absolute as a command. This goes directly along the lines of these Scriptures: Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Mat 19:19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. God does not make it possible for a rich man to enter Heaven by lowering His standards and disregarding His commands to forsake all and sell your belongings like He commands, instead, God makes it possible by transforming the heart of a rich man to be so generous with his riches that he doesn't lay up any treasure on earth for himself. God makes it possible by so transforming the heart of a rich man, that the same rich man is eager to sell his possesions and give to the poor and to be content will food and covering. 1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. So to answer the original question at the beginning of this post, my advice is this: Don't tithe period. Instead, take your income and spend as little as possible on yourself for your basic neccesitties and give the rest away generously out of a loving heart. I say never support an ungodly unbiblical system that's robbing God of His glory lest you become a partaker of their evil deeds by supporting them. Instead, most definately support a biblical cause. The NT commands us to give to the poor, and to help widows and orphans. And it also says that those who labor full time in the word and doctrine are worthy of their wages (wages which should cover their expenses and not their excessive luxories like is so common among American pastors by the way). I would highly encourage everybody to visit this site at this link and read/listen to all the resources posted here: revivalarmy.com/custom3.html. It goes much more in depth with what I am saying and it can truly transform your walk with God forever. Especially if what I am saying sounds a little radicial, or wrong, or whatever, I believe once you read the information there and listen to the sermons you will believe differently. Sorry the reply is so long but I felt led to post all of that. God bless.
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Post by josefurban on May 9, 2006 17:45:04 GMT -5
Why build buildings at all? I have noticed everytime I go to visit my parents, there is a church meeting in just about every school. As a matter of fact, Sunday I drove past the high school that I graduated from and EVERY PARKING SPACE WAS TAKEN. Similarly, the middle school and one elementary school that I went to have churches in them. Also, I noticed sunday that there is a new church meeting in the cineplex by the mall. Honestly, couldn't you guys just meet in tents and give all of your money to the poor? Maybe you don't even need to worship. You could worship God by feeding God's sheep. This is exactly what I've been preaching. That's right on.
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Post by biblethumper on May 9, 2006 21:17:55 GMT -5
The tithing issue is agreed upon....
However....
To say that there were no buildings in the Book of Acts and to use that as springboard for tearing down the ones we today have up would be a little much, don't you think?
Hasnlt it occured to you that the REASON no buildings were up was because of the fact that they were not received by those of the local authority?
No Believer COULD build a building; it was IMpossible.
Now, because of God's Grace, we can now build churches to stand as beacons of light in a dark world.
Sure, there are many excesses that take place everyday...
But let's remember, Jesus may never had commanded us to build a church yet He never said we couldn't either....
Be it a building, home, school etc etc...
The House Church Movement is great, and yet so are the buildings which stand as a testimony of the Grace of God.
Amen.
PS: Tithing 10% is great, or 30 or 90.... I simply believe we pray and God answers.
Who ministers to you?
Give to that individual or ministry.
Also, if you cannot tithe at your own church, get out of that church.
If I can;t trust my pastor with my money, why would I trust him with my soul?
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Post by messengermicah on May 9, 2006 21:44:32 GMT -5
I wish it was that simple. Most churches all operate the same way. Also not everything in these churches is bad. The churches in the bible were not without there problems and faults either remember. There are also good things going on as well as goldy people. Most of the people I preach with on a regular basis came out of my church. Many of the people support us and pray for us. I liked the article and love your heart for God Josef. I am not sure I agree that tithing is not for the New Testament. I can scripturally back up why I believe that and may do that later. However, I am not dogmatic about it and am certainly not going to persecute you over it. The article was good though and I am open to it.
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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 21:56:47 GMT -5
Wow, you guys are making some very good points! I agree with giving as much as you possibly can and not being confined to 10%. Thank you Josef! Thumper: "If I can't trust my pastor with my money, why would I trust him with my soul?" -Ouch...that hurt. You have a very good point. I understand what Micah is saying too. I wish that my churches had some redeemable qualities... It is sad because the one at home has persecuted my brothers and sister for preaching the law and the one at school is dead as roadkill. The only problem is that there are no churches in my area that are not dead! This is something that I am going to have to seek out in a lot of prayer! Thank you so much to all of you.
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Post by ejuliot on May 9, 2006 22:02:59 GMT -5
You'll never believe what just happened! I just went and told my dad about this thread while he was on the phone with a friend. He had just been talking about the same thing on the phone! I told him what thumper said "If I can't trust my pastor with my money, why would I trust him with my soul?" My dad was really struck by that and said that this might just be an answer to prayer...please pray that God will give my family wisdom in this matter.
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Post by josefurban on May 10, 2006 20:42:00 GMT -5
To say that there were no buildings in the Book of Acts and to use that as springboard for tearing down the ones we today have up would be a little much, don't you think? Hasnlt it occured to you that the REASON no buildings were up was because of the fact that they were not received by those of the local authority? No Believer COULD build a building; it was IMpossible. I don't think it is a little much. I say they sell their fancy buildings, give the money to the poor and the needy, and meet wherever the Lord tells them to meet. The fact that there were no buildings in Acts should be MORE of a springboard to get rid of these massive excesses we have now than to keep building them like we are. We shouldn't spend all of our money and resources on something that is totally unneccesary and on something the Bible never commands us to do. More money is wasted on steeple house buildings than on anything else in the American Christian "church". Think of how many full-time preachers those mass millions could fund around the world. The Great Commission would probably be fulfilled already if we didn't have steeple houses to waste all our money on. I hear more of an emphasis on "building pledges" and tithes in most churches than I hear on holiness! The whole rotten system is handed over to the love of money. Steeple house buildings are poor stewardship and an absolute waste of Mammon. The only exception would be when the Lord clearly directs it and provides for it (and He wouldn't rob the poor to do it like I see today). If it was so important, wouldn't there be at least one command to do it in the New Testament? That would be a mighty big thing for Jesus and the Apostles to somehow forget to mention. Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?Point # 1: No man can build a church. Only Jesus builds the church. He said, "...on this Rock I will build MY Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it". We can only work together with God to win souls and plant new converts into assemblies to disciple them, but Jesus Himself builds the church. Point # 2: Since Jesus said the gates of Hell would never prevail against His church, this proves a very clear truth. The fact that the gates of Hell ARE prevailing against the modern institutional "church" that is based on buildings PROVES beyond a doubt that these things are not his church. They are of the world, and being of the world, they are Satan's domain. Point # 3: The way you use the term "churches" is wrong. The correct term for what you are trying to say is "steeple houses". It may be by God's grace we can build steeple houses, but that doesn't mean it's God's will. A sinner can blaspheme and God's grace could permit him without being struck down with lightning, but that doesn't mean it was God's will for him to do that. In the same way, just because God permits it doesn't mean it is his will. Point # 4: No steeple house ever stood as a light in a dark world, ever. The only Light of the world is the light of Christ (John 1), and the light of Christ shines through His Body, which is the church, the house (dwelling place) of God, the pillar and ground of truth, with each member fitly joined together as living stones growing up together into a holy temple in the Lord. God doesn't live in steeple houses, He lives within His saints. Point # 5: Steeple houses are not a light to a dark world, they are actually a hindrance in many ways to getting the true light to it. No man lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel, yet this is exactly what the institutional "church" has done. Point # 6. Steeple houses are going to burn with fire and perish at the judgment of God. Then it will all be truly revealed what great vanity they are. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Very true. But HE DID COMMAND us to use our money and resources as wisely as possible for His glory, and most steeple houses are in blatant rebellion against such commands. 1. I'm not all for the House Church Movement (just in case you think I am I don't know). I'm for the true Church movement. Many house churches are in a spirit of rebellion and are anti-leadership and I can't stand for that for a second. However, the true church I believe, as you said, should meet in homes, schools, buildings, or wherever the Lord provides while still focusing on our primary task: winning souls and making disciples. We should use all our efforts, money, time and energy on the fulfillment of this mission alone. 2. No building or steeple house ever stood as a testimony to the grace of God. The only time we should build a steeple house is when the Lord clearly commands us to, which is very rare. And at that, the light of Christ is the testimony of God's grace, which doesn't shine through buildings, it shines through people. Amen to that!
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 10, 2006 20:55:52 GMT -5
tithing to a church is robbery, period. i do not believe there is an exception, because even in the good, fundamentalist churches you all attend the tithe pays electricity, water, gas, etc and they may never have spent monies on a building project. money pays the pastor, and is distributed into other areas that do not concern me.
why not spend your hard-earned money on saving peoples physical lives, by donating to aids, cancer, etc? after all, how do you expect to minister to the lost if they are already dead?
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Post by ejuliot on May 10, 2006 20:57:52 GMT -5
What is the point in keeping them alive if they are going to go to hell anyways in the end? Why not keep them alive AND save their soul?
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 10, 2006 21:01:19 GMT -5
they are not going to hell, anyway, i doubt jesus would have said to a man being mugged, "i am not going to help you, you're buddhist."
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Post by josefurban on May 10, 2006 21:02:56 GMT -5
I liked the article and love your heart for God Josef. I am not sure I agree that tithing is not for the New Testament. I can scripturally back up why I believe that and may do that later. However, I am not dogmatic about it and am certainly not going to persecute you over it. The article was good though and I am open to it. I am fairly dogamtic against tithing for a reason because it brings people under the bondage of the Law, downgrades the beautiful freedom that is in Christ, and twists the true commands of Christ regarding stewardship and generosity. He demands way above just tithing! And so many "church-goers" think they are OK if they just intellectually acknowledge "faith" in Christ, go to a steeple house, and pay their tithes, but nothing could be further from the truth! I have heard ALL the arguments and scriptures used for tithing so believe me I have definately searched this out on both sides. However, my research ended at the book of Galatians. I would highly encourage you to read Galatians with tithing in mind bro and see if you have the same belief!
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 10, 2006 21:04:17 GMT -5
i believe you, you said to...
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Post by messengermicah on May 10, 2006 22:57:02 GMT -5
Josef,
You may be right, but even though I enjoyed your article, it was very vague as far as being a proof that we shouldn't tithe. You did not refute any of the arguments people bring up for tithing, just basically said that Paul never commanded it and it is bondage to the law.
By the way, I live very sacrifically by American standards so I am not trying to defend giving less. I agree that 10% is too little.
I just think if you are going to be dogmatic on something that is not all that clear, then you should be more thorough.
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Post by Grant on May 11, 2006 8:34:24 GMT -5
My two cents: if someone is giving all they can from their heart, let it be between them and God. We will each be accountable to our stewardship so whether we give to a church whom we trust uses it for His kingdom or give to trustworthy charities or give directly to the needy themselves, the Lord provides so let Him lead us.
Personally, I still tithe to the church I attend, but mostly because they give about 70% to missions. But I'm continually being drawn away from this church and have already begun giving much more outside of the church since outside is where my heart is drawn.
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Post by revevangelist on May 11, 2006 22:06:38 GMT -5
Great Post, Just came by to say Hi.
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