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Post by biblethumper on Dec 5, 2006 0:31:35 GMT -5
So here I am listening to Dan Corner clip short statements out of Ray Comfort sermons and then giving large discussion on the short clips. He claims ray Comfort teaches a false security and a license for immorality! Ha! Amazing! You guys need to hear this "sermon"! This is the epitamy of dishonesty and twisting a man's words to lie about them! Click this link and listen to Dan Corner rave on and on and on! At 44:39 you hear Ray Comfort in a short clip then you hear Dan Corner claiming Comfort teaches that Christians can lie, etc etc. david.churchquest.com/evangelicaloutreach.org/CornerOnComfort.wmaWhen you're done, send him an email! contender@evangelicaloutreach.org
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Post by tbxi on Dec 5, 2006 1:39:48 GMT -5
I've read the piece he wrote (it is roughly if not entirely the same message) about Ray. It can be easily accessed through the site www.nocalvinism.org (flashy website, but with little substance or actual meaningful discussion of Calvinism). That part about the Russians busting into the rooms and telling them all to get out if they weren't prepared to die... Corner says the guys were committing three sins by: 1. lying 2. breathing murderous threats 3. interrupting a Christian prayer meeting. I see nothing wrong with this. The men did not lie (they said nothing untrue). They did not threaten to murder anyone, they merely sorted out the cowards from the true believers. And I was not aware that interrupting a Christian prayer meeting was a sin. Besides, "because they left under the fear of persecution as the Lord's apostles did"? ... what? Of course the apostles ran from persecution at times. If it was possible they would do so in order to continue to spread the word. But they were still prepared to die for their faith, and would not have denied it under threats of death or persecution. This is a pretty pathetic smear. Moreover, Ray did not say anything to the effect that those men were lying, and therefore were not condoning such an act even if it were true... I had to listen to this two or three times to realize this because it went by pretty fast.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 5, 2006 8:11:10 GMT -5
It is obvious that Dan Corner is a liar and has therefore lost his salvation...Revelation 21:8
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Post by biblethumper on Dec 5, 2006 10:00:09 GMT -5
It is obvious that Dan Corner is a liar and has therefore lost his salvation... Revelation 21:8Oh, RevK.... I think he lost it way way way back when he started teaching a works-based righteousness and a works-based Salvation We need to pray for this false prophet; God can even restore dan Corner!
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Post by alan4jc on Dec 5, 2006 10:22:24 GMT -5
I think instead of losing it, he never had it. Just my opinion
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Dec 5, 2006 12:39:59 GMT -5
If I listen to the message again I could point them out...but Dan Corner's arguements are full of logical fallacies. It was hard to take him seriously when I heard it the first time.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Dec 5, 2006 14:25:23 GMT -5
While I know Ray teaches an eternal security, and while I scripturally disagree with such a teaching, I do think Dan made extreme conclusions in his message about it.
But from what I've reviewed, his book "The Believers Conditional Security" is all together pretty good.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 5, 2006 18:17:00 GMT -5
I think instead of losing it, he never had it. Just my opinion I was just joking Alan. I don't believe someone can lose their salvation...
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 7, 2006 0:37:35 GMT -5
I think instead of losing it, he never had it. Just my opinion I was just joking Alan. I don't believe someone can lose their salvation... OK, Rev K....a few questions for you sir: The devil; he was cast out of heaven, correct? Now, do you think he was "living eternally" before pride was found in his heart? And the 1/3 of the angels who went with him; they were eternal beings as well, right? How many sins did they commit to get booted from eternal life? The reason I ask is because calvinists (even a professing 3 pointer such as yourself) say you cannot lose your salvation no matter what, but these obviously did lose it. It is sin that causes one to be lost in the first place, so sin must be removed---enter Christ-----and yes, I believe you must live sin free. So the question is not whether we CAN live sin free, but DO WE WANT TO live sin free. I look forward to your response!
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 7, 2006 9:02:51 GMT -5
I was just joking Alan. I don't believe someone can lose their salvation... OK, Rev K....a few questions for you sir: The devil; he was cast out of heaven, correct? Now, do you think he was "living eternally" before pride was found in his heart? And the 1/3 of the angels who went with him; they were eternal beings as well, right? How many sins did they commit to get booted from eternal life? The reason I ask is because calvinists (even a professing 3 pointer such as yourself) say you cannot lose your salvation no matter what, but these obviously did lose it. It is sin that causes one to be lost in the first place, so sin must be removed---enter Christ-----and yes, I believe you must live sin free. So the question is not whether we CAN live sin free, but DO WE WANT TO live sin free. I look forward to your response! My sin has been removed from me because it was placed on Christ. He who had no sin became sin for us. His righteousness was imputed to be so that I would be made right before God. I understand that you believe that we must live sin free, but I see no Biblical backing for that whatsoever. OF COURSE I WANT to live sin free, but have not attained that as of yet. If it is possible then I would LOVE to attain it this side of Heaven. I am definitely striving for it. Pray that I will! As far as Satan and the 1/3 of the Angels that he brought down, we can't really compare that to us. Yes, we have all sinned and now deserve to go to Hell, but it is by the Grace of God that we are saved, not by our own righteousness or sinlessness. The Devil and his angels have no opportunity for Grace. I don't know why that is, but it is just the way God has made it. God Bless Bullhorn...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Dec 7, 2006 18:54:34 GMT -5
Psa 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Jhn 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. Shhh.... Don't argue it just "(Psa 46:10) Be still, and know that I [am] God." Psa 4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 9, 2006 1:27:06 GMT -5
My sin has been removed from me because it was placed on Christ. He who had no sin became sin for us. His righteousness was imputed to be so that I would be made right before God. I understand that you believe that we must live sin free, but I see no Biblical backing for that whatsoever. OF COURSE I WANT to live sin free, but have not attained that as of yet. If it is possible then I would LOVE to attain it this side of Heaven. I am definitely striving for it. Pray that I will! As far as Satan and the 1/3 of the Angels that he brought down, we can't really compare that to us. Yes, we have all sinned and now deserve to go to Hell, but it is by the Grace of God that we are saved, not by our own righteousness or sinlessness. The Devil and his angels have no opportunity for Grace. I don't know why that is, but it is just the way God has made it. God Bless Bullhorn... Thanks for your response, K. I will sometimes go a day or two or three without checking the boards, so forgive the delay. I will pray for you, but I will also try to encourage you not to just go by what others have taught you, but to go by what Christ taught His disciples. The Bible teaches that sin is a choice. We as Christians can and must choose not to sin. If we constantly teach each other that we cannot be free from sin, there is no motivation to attain what Christ has clearly provided. Romans 8:2 states that we are free from the law of sin and death. Romans 6:2 also commands us to stop sinning. I John 3 clearly distinguishes between those who sin and those who do not sin. Plenty of biblical backing there. Also, Hebrews 6:1 tells us to move on from sin to perfection. Jesus commanded the adulterous woman and the healed impotent man both to go and sin no more (John 8:11, 5:14 respectively). Jesus would never command us to do something we could not attain, and then throw us into hellfire for not attaining unto it. I am not able to do it as the old bullhornbob, but the new bullhornbob. The born-again bullhornbob. I simply obey Him because I love Him! And I choose to sin no more, as He commanded. Blessings Kerrigan!
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Post by josh on Dec 9, 2006 1:30:06 GMT -5
We as Christians can and must choose not to sin. I can't keep myself from sin, since in me and my flesh there is no good thing. But its Christ Jesus who keeps me from sin.
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Devon
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by Devon on Dec 9, 2006 22:16:06 GMT -5
I don't like to argue points when it appears both sides have been debated and hammered ad infinitum, and the result is usually just a waste of time and sour feelings, but I want to stand up for my brother Dan. He seems to be under-represented a bit here.
I think Dan makes valid points throughout this segment if listened to without prejudice. It's understandable that Comfort might be viewed by many as beyond reproach because of his many years of admirable service in the faith with WOM/ Living Waters and all. And I praise God for this man! I have learned a lot from Comfort, but no man should be elevated to infallibility status (we're not Catholics)- and I believe Comfort would agree with me on that. The prejudice is clear by someone who remarks about Dan raving on and on and on. Someone else drives by and says he's not saved or has LOST his salvation.
How can a man be tested when the approach is one of prejudice? I'm shocked someone would start a new thread criticizing someone only for testing Comfort's own statements without addressing what he said. Not even Comfort is beyond the Berean's microscope (especially with regard to the issue of salvation). Test everything men say with Scripture as the criterion- the only standard of infallibility. Many of the lost approach the Bible in this way rather than an objective and serious look into the evidence. They are very hard to win too.
The whole contention here has to do with whether you believe the Bible teaches that true believers can fall away from the faith or not. No one can deny that the Bible clearly warns against falling away and apostasy in numerous places. The warnings are not there to take up space, but to keep Gentles on guard, circumspect, careful to avoid evil-- because up-grafting and re-grafting CAN and DOES take place (Romans 12). Falling away also occurs, a simple Strong's search will tell you that. You can only fall away from something you were once in.
I hope no one here believes the warnings are there to keep us from losing rewards. God indeed does have a reward (merit) system, but it has to do with good works.
If I am a 30 year old "Christian drunkard" who turned to the bottle because my wife left me, but was soundly saved at age 21 will I only get 10 crowns instead of the 40 crowns I was hoping for when I die? No, if I were to die at 30 unrepentant, I'm in Big Trouble with God. You might retort, "Well, you were not truly saved at 21!" How do you know that? If we talked when I was 25, and I died at age 26, you would have rejoiced at my funeral with me because of the evidence you witnessed of me. It is at the age of 30 that I became the evildoer, a backslider, I returned to my vomit, and was re-enslaved by sin. I hope everyone here would exhort me to repent from my drunkenness, and not try to examine whether I was really saved at 21 or not. WHAT MATTERS IS WHERE A MAN IS NOW.
God is able to keep us, BUT we have to consent by keeping in His love (Jude 21, 24) and remaining in Him. We have to keep listening to Him and keep doing what He says. We should never take it easy on sin or take sin lightly with fellow Christians. This is a dangerous way to live the Christian life. We are to flee, hate, and fear sin. I can't believe Jesse was being berated on here by bible thumper for striving for perfection and a sinless life THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT- this should be applauded by Christians, not criticized-- UNBELIEVABLE!
Dan makes a good point about Comfort saying there's a difference between a soundly saved convert falling into sin and the false convert diving into sin- are they not both choices? Hence all the warnings to Christians to stand firm. Fall into a swimming pool (you were snared) or dive in- either way you get wet.
Again, the whole issue of contention revolves around if you can fall away or not. My simple conclusion is this: You cannot fall away IF you remain in Christ <note the condition>. Leave Christ, turn from Him, reject Him, believe a false Gospel, remain unrepentant and you're on your own-- and in Big Trouble with God...oh yea, that applies whether you had a past moment of faith or not. The Christian walk starts at conversion, it doesn't end there- in fact the devil gets busy trying to turn you against God, .......ask Job.
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 10, 2006 17:01:22 GMT -5
I can't keep myself from sin, since in me and my flesh there is no good thing. But its Christ Jesus who keeps me from sin. Josh, you contradict scripture with your statement. Jesus saves from sin. We are commanded to be filled with God's Spirit. He should be in you, if you are a Christian. Paul says to cleanse yourself of all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. God is not in heaven with a remote control, dominating your every move. He gives you the choice to sin, or not to sin. This is so evident in scripture, why even debate this?
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Post by sean on Dec 10, 2006 17:21:33 GMT -5
We cleanse ourself "through" Christ. When Paul tells us to cleanse OURSELVES he is speaking of cleansing ourselves by the grace of God in us and given to us.
I think Josh may be saying the same thing. Maybe.
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 11, 2006 2:00:53 GMT -5
We cleanse ourself "through" Christ. When Paul tells us to cleanse OURSELVES he is speaking of cleansing ourselves by the grace of God in us and given to us. I think Josh may be saying the same thing. Maybe. Ok, look at it this way: To take a shower, you need 3 elements - you, the water, and the soap. You must wash yourself with the soap of the Word of God, and rinse clean with the water of the Holy Ghost. But these elements alone will not accomplish cleansing without YOU getting it done. Cooperation is the word that comes to mind here!
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Post by josh on Dec 11, 2006 2:53:26 GMT -5
Cooperation is the word that comes to mind here! Works righteousness comes into my mind when I read that.
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 11, 2006 23:16:04 GMT -5
Works righteousness comes into my mind when I read that. Josh, can you do anything in this life before you DECIDE to do it? You can CHOOSE to believe the gospel, or you can CHOOSE to reject it. Anyone who has followed this board for any amount of time knows I would never base my salvation on my own good works, but my responsibility to do good works is commanded by God. The work of redemption was done by Christ, but the works of righteousness afterwards are to be performed by us, the saints of God. Read Ephesians 2:10, not just 2:8 and 9. I can list more "works" scriptures if you like?
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Post by josh on Dec 12, 2006 0:36:52 GMT -5
So you do good works to maintain your salvation?
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Post by josh on Dec 12, 2006 1:10:20 GMT -5
The work of redemption was done by Christ, but the works of righteousness afterwards are to be performed by us, the saints of God. Read Ephesians 2:10, not just 2:8 and 9. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " - Ephesians 2:10 So what can we gain from this verse: 1) We the workmanship of God. 2) We are made for good works. 3) God has prepared what works we are to do. 4) We are to walk in them. ummmm..... where is the part in this verse about our works making us righteous? This verse shows us that God has preordained what we are to do in this life. But are we to work at our own righteousness? The Bible says in 2 Cor. 5:21 that we are already righteous in Christ. Galatians shows us that none can be righteous by the deeds of the law. Paul lays down in Romans that we are made righteous by faith in Christ. Lets look at the example of OT believers, they were counted righteous because of faith in God. So as NT believers are we to be counted righteous by faith and works? Certainly not. Our works don't make us righteous but they merely show that we are righteous in Christ. "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous - deeds are like a polluted garment." - Isiah 64:6
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Post by josh on Dec 12, 2006 1:15:07 GMT -5
We are commanded to be filled with God's Spirit. All Christians are filled with the Spirit at conversion (Eph 1) How do we cleanse ourselves? I thought like it said in 1 John that the Blood of Christ cleanses us. God is the one who cleanses (1 John 1:9) Who enables us not to sin?
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Post by josh on Dec 12, 2006 1:25:22 GMT -5
but the works of righteousness afterwards are to be performed by us, the saints of God. "...to those sanctified in Christ Jesus" - 1 Cor 1:2 We are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and not by our own good works. "Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." - Galatians 3:5-12 I don't see anything there about our own works making us righteous. In fact I see the opposite. Faith in Christ makes us righteous.
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Post by Kerrigan on Dec 12, 2006 8:30:14 GMT -5
Good stuff Josh!
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 12, 2006 15:24:59 GMT -5
So you do good works to maintain your salvation? Most of your responses are to something YOU are making up. I never claimed any of the things you are implying. Maintain your salvation? Isn't that why we go to church every Sunday, for a tune-up, and 21 point inspection? LOL Josh said: I don't see anything there about our own works making us righteous. In fact I see the opposite. Faith in Christ makes us righteous. So if you are righteous, then work righteousness. Josh, what is faith? Is it not the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen? Faith is a choice to believe God. You have to cooperate with God. You have to choose to obey God. So yes, our good works prove we are saved, and it is us who are doing them, and not an infrared signal from God's remote control. You are not a robot. I repeat, not a robot, not a robot. I am amazed at how much of a response I have elicited from you, Josh. Do you think Adam and Eve chose to sin, or were they predestined to fall? I thought God created man in His own image? So if by choice man can sin, can he not also choose NOT to sin? Are we just a bunch of pawns on a planet, with God watching it all play out just as He planned it? Do you not have a free-will, Josh?
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Post by bullhornbob on Dec 12, 2006 15:33:40 GMT -5
Yeah, too bad he made up all of those arguments on his own. I never stated anything that he implied in his responses Good try, Josh.
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Post by josh on Dec 12, 2006 20:54:58 GMT -5
So please do explain your view point on righteousness.
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Post by josh on Dec 12, 2006 21:01:39 GMT -5
Maintain your salvation? Isn't that why we go to church every Sunday, for a tune-up, and 21 point inspection? LOL I go to church to learn more, Glorify God, and have fellowship with believers. How does one become righteous? The bible says "None seek after God" so our salvation has nothing to do with our choice or cooperation (John 1:12-13) Epehsians 2:10 which you quoted before shows us that God has preordained good works for us to do. Straw man argument. Let me quote John MacArthur on this issue: "The only free will a fallen man has, is to choose his own poision". We can choose not to sin, but in ourselves we can never acheive it. Thats why its Christ who keeps us from sin. Yes if you believe God is Sovereign! A Slave never has a free will choice but is bound to do what his master commands.
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