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Post by Josh Parsley on Sept 3, 2007 20:24:10 GMT -5
A thought just came to mind. Is the teaching that you cannot ever remarry something that Jesus (re)instituted or was it in the law? If it is something that Jesus (re)instituted then when did it begin? It seems that John rebuked Herod before the new covenant was put in place.
I say (re) because from the beginning it wasn't so.
I can't seem to find scriptures that show exactly which came first- Jesus' teaching on the topic or John rebuking. Can anyone else? All I can find is where it tells about him doing it, but John was already dead when the scriptures bring it up. The only reason I would even say anything is because if John's rebuke came first, then he wasn't rebuking him because of a "new" teaching that Jesus brought but because he was breaking a teaching of the Law.
If the "new teachings" of Jesus were instituted the moment he spoke them, was the Law changed before it was fulfilled? The Law does give the ability to remarry. Or was Jesus clarifying the Law since it was a hot topic of the day?
Let it be very clear, I'm not justifying "the Whites" I think they are dead wrong. I just say that since that is the title of this thread.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 3, 2007 20:39:24 GMT -5
Matthew 5:28-32 (King James Version)
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 14:1-5 (King James Version) Matthew 14 1At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,
2And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.
3For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
4For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.
5And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Sept 3, 2007 20:41:24 GMT -5
Rebecca,
That doesn't quite answer it since in Matthew 14 John was already dead.
2And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 3, 2007 20:44:43 GMT -5
Your right! I just posted it because you were inquiring. 1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 4, 2007 6:08:41 GMT -5
By the way, I was just referring to Dan's case on this thread, not the White's because I don't know their story.
If you could not go back to your first wife or husband because they had already remarried than if you were to remain unmarried you could fall into temptation and possible adultary.The bible says that it is better to marry than to burn, but only if they cannot go back to their first spouse.
1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
I would like to hear though what everyone else has to say about this verse.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 4, 2007 8:50:51 GMT -5
Thanks for that article Josh, I posted it on my websight. It's amazing how many visitors I get on my blog! I have always been burdened for people in these situations. There are alot of hurting christians out there.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Sept 4, 2007 19:49:21 GMT -5
By the way, I was just referring to Dan's case on this thread, not the White's because I don't know their story. If you could not go back to your first wife or husband because they had already remarried than if you were to remain unmarried you could fall into temptation and possible adultary.The bible says that it is better to marry than to burn, but only if they cannot go back to their first spouse. 1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. I would like to hear though what everyone else has to say about this verse. 1 cor 7:9 is not in the context of divorce and remarriage. If it is, please show me how. Paul is simply saying for singles it is better to marry than to burn (with lust, I can only presume.) How can anyone get around that Jesus said, WHOSOEVER divorces and marries another COMMITTETH adultery. Were the disciples supposed to go out and teach people and make disciples commanding them to obey whatsoever He had commanded them? Does that include what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage? does Paul contradict Jesus? I think not. For an explanation on why Matthew adds the "except for fornication" I will try to get into shortly. But nonetheless the scripture is clear. If anyone can prove how Jesus' commands mean nothing, please show me. I believe in the historical view and the only one I believe which can harmonize perfectly what Jesus said and what Paul said on the topic. I will also try to include some early church fathers writings on the issue. Here is a book that is available to read online called, "What the Bible Says About Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage" by John Coblenz. www.anabaptists.org/books/mdr/I would like to load up an audio sermon as soon as I get home that lays it out quite nicely and answers many many objections and questions. Blessings, Miles
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Post by rebecca on Sept 4, 2007 21:39:50 GMT -5
Miles
If a man were to leave his wife and he could not go back to his first wife he would have to remain unmarried until his first wife dies. That is putting him in a compromising position. If a man were put in that position they would burn with lust if they did not have the gift of celibacy.
Paul said it is better to marry than to burn. I don't believe Jesus is as concerned with men keeping a law as He is that they do not burn with lust.
Just like king David eating the shew-bread that they were commanded not to eat. He ate because he was hungry. I know that is like comparing apples to oranges but do you see the point I am trying to make? God is concerned for man not for the laws alone that govern them.
Did you get to read the article Josh posted? I thought it was very good. I am open to this, I do not want to be wrong here. I did spend a good deal of time studying up on this the last time we discussed it.
Matthew 19:9 (King James Version) 9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 5, 2007 6:28:41 GMT -5
Matthew 19:9 (King James Version) 9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
If a person cannot go back to their first wife because they are already married I would say according to this verse that they are free to remarry.I believe this is a continual state of fornication because elsewhere in the bible it says to forgive but you cannot forgive and go back to someone who is still in fornication.
I also do not see how you can expect someone to live a life of celibacy. If the scripture says it's better to marry than to burn obviously he was implying that not all can live celibate lives.
The reason I brought up David with the shew-bread is to illustrate how God is more concerned with man than He is the laws that govern us, not saying though that we are to throw away the law. The reason this subject I believe is so controversial is because you are dealing with an issue that is going to affect a persons well being one way or the other. It's very easy to look at the law in this issue and not get the spirit of the law. People tend to get legalistic.
The answer though is clearly in Matthew 19:9 (above) in this case.
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Post by messengermicah on Sept 5, 2007 17:32:08 GMT -5
I am with Miles on this one. That is how I see the scripture, that is how I understand it, and that is the way I believe Jesus meant it.
It is living in a state of adultery.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Sept 5, 2007 22:09:17 GMT -5
Yes I did read the article. I used to agree with it but have since changed. I re read it also. I wish it was right but I cannot twist the scriptures to fit that position. Believe me, I really wish I was wrong on this one. I think it would be extremely hard to be celibate. But you yourself are hoping that your daughters never marry. Can God give someone such as the drug user, the fornicator, the porn addict, the alcoholic, etc, the grace to get out of sin? Why not adultery?
Now, here is what the scripture plainly says... He is not saying to the homosexual it is better to marry than to burn, he is not saying to the pedophile is better to marry than to burn, and he is not saying to the divorced it is better to marry than to burn...
Paul makes the distinction clear:
1 Cor. 7
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
[only UNmarried and widows (if you are a widow you are free from the law binding you to your husband.) need apply to this here]
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
God actually does expect someone to remain unmarried if they are not in a lawful position to marry. What makes it not lawful to marry? Jesus is clear. If you have a spouse that is still living you are bound to the law until death of one partner. If her husband still be alive yet she is married to another she shall be called an adulteress. (Romans 7)
Now a scriptural reason for divorce only (not remarriage which is a separate issue altogether) is the case of (perpetual) adultery. That is a lawful reason to divorce but not to remarry. Any woman who is "put away" if someone else marries her, they both commit adultery. That is what Jesus taught, and to the best of my understanding that is the tradition of the early church as well.
Blessings,
Miles
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Post by rebecca on Sept 6, 2007 5:37:15 GMT -5
What is the definition of fornication in the Greek? I don't have a Greek concordance right now. Is this same word used throughout the bible like this article says? We should let this verse speak for itself here. QUOTE: "The Lord Jesus names "fornication" as grounds for remarriage after one has been divorced (Matthew 19:3-9). However, what does our Lord mean when using the term "fornication?" The Greek word "pornea" translated "fornication" in Matthew 19 and Luke is used elsewhere in Scripture to denote "harlotry" (Luke 15:30); "incestuous relationships" (I Corinthians 5:1); "sodomite relationships" (Jude 1:7); "betrothal unfaithfulness" (Deuteronomy 22:13-21); and "marital unfaithfulness" (Proverbs 7:10-20; Hosea 2:2; Jeremiah 3:6-9; Ezekiel 16:28-34; 23:43-45), where adultery and fornication are used synonymously. As shown above, the restricting of "fornication" to mean only "betrothal unfaithfulness" is to ignore its usage in other parts of the Bible." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found another article on the definition of fornicaion: What is the Biblical definition of "Fornication"? The word fornication comes from three separate words in the Bible, two from the Hebrew and one from the Greek. These words all share similar connotations. Each can mean literal fornication between two unmarried persons in a marriage contract; however, it can also signify adultery, sleeperdom, or an act of unfaithfulness on the part of Yahweh’s people. The first place the word fornication is used in the Old Testament is found in II Chronicles 21:81. The word fornication found in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 2181, Zanah, and is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as follows: "to commit adultery (usually on the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); fig. To commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of [Yahweh])…" One thing that might be noted is that the Strong’s only offers a broad definition and not an exact definition. Therefore, to completely understand the usage of a particular word in the Hebrew or Greek, one must examine the context of the passage in question. Many times you may find a more detailed definition in a word study or a lexicon. While, these sources often prove to be valuable in the understanding of many Hebrew and Greek words, a person also must acknowledge the fact that these were written by man and can be inaccurate in some instances. For example, The Complete Word Study Old Testament offers a more decisive definition than found in Strong’s. It notes on page 2312 in its Lexical Aid, "To fornicate, commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot, commit adultery; to apostatize, have intercourse with false g-ds or foreigners; to seduce. The main idea is to commit illicit sexual intercourse, particularly with women. However, this strong image is used in a figurative sense to describe illegal contact between Israel and other nations and their g-ds…" The Complete Word Study Old Testament suggests three possible meanings for the Hebrew word "zanah." The first being fornication (pre-marital, illicit sex), the second being adultery (marital, illicit sex), and the third being idolatry (worship of a person or thing besides Yahweh). The second word denoting fornication in the English is found only once in the Hebrew, in Ezekiel 16:29. The word fornication in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 8457, taznuth, and simply means a type of idolatry. Being that this word is only used once, the quest for an exact definition should not be too exhausting. The third word signifying fornication is found in the Greek and is first used in Matthew 5:32. This word derives from the Greek word, No. 4202, porneia and is defined in the Strong’s as follows, "from 4203; harlotry (incl. Adultery and incest); fig. Idolatry: - fornication." Again, we only find a broad definition for this Greek word, "porneia." Porneia is used 32 times in the New Testament and conveys many different definitions. For example, the word fornication in Matthew 5:32 is often taken to denote an act of adultery, however an in-depth study will prove this understanding false, and confirm the real usage of this Greek word "porneia" in this particular passage, which is fornication, pre-material sex. In the fifth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul admonishes the Corinthian assembly to remove the sin that they were allowing in the assembly. One of the sins listed by the Apostle was a gentile committing "fornication" with his father’s wife. Now this is not what we consider fornication, but more accurately this signifies incest with his stepmother. Trying to pinpoint this word without examining the passage in question is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe. www.yrm.org/qna-fornication.htm---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by rebecca on Sept 6, 2007 9:38:43 GMT -5
If what this writer says is true here according to the Greek concordance than the word fornication means Adultary, fornication , incest or harlotry.
QUOTE: "The third word signifying fornication is found in the Greek and is first used in Matthew 5:32. This word derives from the Greek word, No. 4202, porneia and is defined in the Strong’s as follows, "from 4203; harlotry (incl. Adultery and incest); fig. Idolatry: - fornication."
He claims this is a broad definition but it is either the definition or it is not.
I actually was starting to believe this was just fornication but on second thought looking at it, it is not according to the Greek.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 6, 2007 12:05:06 GMT -5
As I was saying, I attended Without Walls two years ago and I am still on thier mailing list.
I just now recieved a pre-recorded call from Randy White and he said that he was in surgery with his daugther on Thursday, they were able to remove 90% of the tumor.
I have a burden for them and we need to keep them in prayer and try to make a difference in whatever way we can if given the opportunity. I don't believe on giving up on people. I'm glad there are some who never gave up on me.
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luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Post by luvofchrist on Sept 8, 2007 20:39:46 GMT -5
Sorry but I am not trying to debate anyone. I just do not see it anywhere in the Bible where it is ok if it was done before the person was a Christian. I know many people who seem to be model Christians that are in this situation. Still I would never have a clear conscience about condoning this situation. I would not want to be in their shoes on judgment day. If I am wrong then I am wrong but I would rather error on this side that the other because that is how I see it in the Word of God. I don't want to debate either because I do not get on line much anymore, but I don't believe Jesus is at all recognizing those other marriages. The verses that get me are John rebuking Herod for having his brother's wife because it was not lawful for him to have her. Herod was not a Christian. He was a sinner. So are you saying that when you come to Christ, He cleanses and forgives every sin except divorce? Because if I follow your line of reasoning that's where it leads: divorce being the unpardonable sin.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Sept 8, 2007 21:45:02 GMT -5
Sorry but I am not trying to debate anyone. I just do not see it anywhere in the Bible where it is ok if it was done before the person was a Christian. I know many people who seem to be model Christians that are in this situation. Still I would never have a clear conscience about condoning this situation. I would not want to be in their shoes on judgment day. If I am wrong then I am wrong but I would rather error on this side that the other because that is how I see it in the Word of God. I don't want to debate either because I do not get on line much anymore, but I don't believe Jesus is at all recognizing those other marriages. The verses that get me are John rebuking Herod for having his brother's wife because it was not lawful for him to have her. Herod was not a Christian. He was a sinner. So are you saying that when you come to Christ, He cleanses and forgives every sin except divorce? Because if I follow your line of reasoning that's where it leads: divorce being the unpardonable sin. I don't think he is saying that the divorce itself is held to anyone's account. It is the remarriage that is the issue. Jesus said that divorcing and remarrying IS committing adultery. If someone is a homosexual before they get saved and then they "become a christian" but they are still being a homosexual, are they forgiven of being a homosexual? If someone is committing adultery and then they become a christian, if they are still living in adultery are they forgiven? What is repentance? Saying sorry or turning?
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Post by rebecca on Sept 10, 2007 11:37:09 GMT -5
I'm starting to believe fornication just means whor-edom.There are other sexual sins besides adultary and premarital sex. Just dressing like a whor-e is whor-e_dom (fornication):
I'm still open, this is just an observation.
Isaiah 3:16-24 (King James Version)
16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.
18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21The rings, and nose jewels,
22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.
2 Chronicles 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
Isaiah 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Ezekiel 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.
Ezekiel 16:29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith. Ezekiel 16:28-30 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 5:31-33 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter) Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John 8:40-42 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)
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luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Post by luvofchrist on Sept 10, 2007 18:22:49 GMT -5
So are you saying that when you come to Christ, He cleanses and forgives every sin except divorce? Because if I follow your line of reasoning that's where it leads: divorce being the unpardonable sin. I don't think he is saying that the divorce itself is held to anyone's account. It is the remarriage that is the issue. Jesus said that divorcing and remarrying IS committing adultery. If someone is a homosexual before they get saved and then they "become a christian" but they are still being a homosexual, are they forgiven of being a homosexual? If someone is committing adultery and then they become a christian, if they are still living in adultery are they forgiven? What is repentance? Saying sorry or turning? Miles, So, to solve the problem of the couple committing adultery they should get divorced? So then do two wrongs make then make a right? I don't think so! Matt 19:8-9 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV Even Jesus said that divorce and remarriage in this instance is not committing adultery.
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Post by Miles Lewis on Sept 10, 2007 21:28:34 GMT -5
Laying that reason being marital unfaithfulness aside for just a second... lets say the divorce was not because of marital unfaithfulness. Is anyone willing to say that someone who is divorced and remarried IS committING adultery and needs to repent (by repent I mean stop practicing that sin, not simply saying sorry)?
By the way, Luke's account says,
Chapter 16 18Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Also Mark's account,
Chapter 10 9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Neither mention the part about except for fornication. I believe that there is a reason for this. I could be wrong and am open to other's thoughts. But nonetheless, for the sake of dealing with one topic at a time. Is someone who is divorced (not due to the other committing adultery) and remarried (with their first spouse still living) COMMITTING adultery? Do practicing adulterers inherit the kingdom of God?
I know what the Bible's answers to these are plainly and if I can be shown it to mean anything else with the integrity of the scriptures still intact, please show me. I fully realize the ramifications of this position. But let God be true and every man a liar. I would love to be wrong on this one.
Blessings,
Miles
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Post by rebecca on Sept 11, 2007 13:05:38 GMT -5
Miles Quote "Is someone who is divorced (not due to the other committing adultery) and remarried (with their first spouse still living) COMMITTING adultery?"
Yes, I do believe they are in that case. Miles: Quote: "Do practicing adulterers inherit the kingdom of God?"
No, I don't believe they do but what happens if the other spouse marries and they cannot go back to them?
I am still trying to figure out the correct definition of fornication. The ancient Greek just says that porneia means fornication but what exactly is fornication? Can you give scripture showing me what fornication is exactly because in the OT it seems to have different meanings.
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Post by michaelsei on Sept 27, 2007 22:33:27 GMT -5
No, I don't believe they do but what happens if the other spouse marries and they cannot go back to them? Deuteronomy 4:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; 4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 28, 2007 6:51:46 GMT -5
Is fornication committed between single people only? Doesn't this include those that are married too? Shouldn't we be looking at the Greek?
Strongs #4202, 4203, 4204, & 4205:
Greek4202. porneia, por-ni'-ah; from Grk4203; harlotry (includ. adultery and incest); fig. idolatry:-fornication.
Greek4203. porneuo, porn-yoo'-o; from Grk4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (lit.) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (fig.) practise idolatry:-commit (fornication).
Greek4204. porne, por'-nay; fem. of Grk4205; a strumpet; fig. an idolater:-harlot, whor_e.
Greek4205. pornos, por'-nos; from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of Grk4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by anal.) a debauchee (libertine):-fornicator, whor_emonger.
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Post by michaelsei on Sept 29, 2007 13:32:29 GMT -5
Is fornication committed between single people only? Doesn't this include those that are married too? Shouldn't we be looking at the Greek? Vines Expository Dictionary: <A-1,Noun,4202,porneia> is used (a) of "illicit sexual intercourse," in John 8:41; Acts 15:20,29; 21:25; 1 Cor. 5:1; 6:13,18; 2 Cor. 12:21; Gal. 5:19; Eph. 5:3; Col. 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3; Rev. 2:21; 9:21; in the plural in 1 Cor. 7:2; in Matt. 5:32; 19:9 it stands for, or includes, adultery; it is distinguished from it in 15:19; Mark 7:21; (b) metaphorically, of "the association of pagan idolatry with doctrines of, and professed adherence to, the Christian faith," Rev. 14:8; 17:2,4; 18:3; 19:2; some suggest this as the sense in Rev. 2:21... www.mf.no/bibelprog/vines.pl?word=fornication
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Post by rebecca on Sept 29, 2007 20:12:42 GMT -5
Isn't this modern Greek? The ancient Greek says that fornication means fornication and gives no definition. If I can find it I will show you.I found an ancient Greek websight on the internet. This is the problem, there are alot of modern versions of the Greek and we have to look at the ancient Greek.
This is Strongs: Greek4202. porneia, por-ni'-ah; from Grk4203; harlotry (includ. adultery and incest); fig. idolatry:-fornication.
We could use different concordances all day long but it will do us no good till we look at the ancient Greek.
In my opinion Strong's is the second best way to go.
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Post by rebecca on Sept 30, 2007 7:09:33 GMT -5
So what is fornication? Adultery is a specific word for sexual relations while you are married but fornication is much broader it seems.
2 Chronicles 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
Isaiah 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Ezekiel 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whor_doms, to provoke me to anger.
Ezekiel 16:29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
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Post by michaelsei on Sept 30, 2007 21:46:48 GMT -5
I think I see what you're getting at. Fornication is a sexual term explicitly. God uses the example of a human relationship to depict the spiritual one, because He has placed us here and the natural is an image/copy/shadow of that which is real/spiritual/original. By implication it is also defined as idolatry. Webster's 1828 Dictionary FORNICA'TION, n. [L. fornicatio.]
1. The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.
2. Adultery. Matt. 5.
3. Incest. 1Cor. 5.
4. Idolatry; a forsaking of the true God, and worshipping of idols. 2Chron. 21. Rev. 19. I hope that helps.
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