Theological Challenges
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Post by Theological Challenges on Apr 10, 2006 2:27:19 GMT -5
I pulled this quote from a reading for my Old Testament class. The author quoted this guy, but I'll refrain from sharing the author's opinion on the quote. I'm just interested in knowing how you all feel about this. Do you agree?
It reminded me of the points made by someone in the "homosex" discussion saying that the growing opinion in the academic world is that homosexuality is influenced by many factors, making it less of an individual choice. I'm not saying this is true, I'm just using this as an example of, if it were true, facts that would challenge the commonly accepted interpretation of the Bible on the issue. I do not want to talk about that though, or even homosexuality at all, I just wanted to offer an example so you would know more along what lines I'm thinking.
So with all that in mind, reactions, anyone? What do you do in the situation that facts surface that contradict your interpretation of the Bible? We could even extend this to what you do when something happens in your life that challenges something you've always believed? Do you reexamine your theology and reshape, or just ignore the contradictions?
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Post by Alison the WarMonger on Apr 10, 2006 2:30:27 GMT -5
Oops, didn't realize I wasn't logged in, and I was confused at the redundancy of the "name" and "subject" question, not realizing you wanted my actual name. So excuse my silly mistake, and for the record, that was posted by me.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 10, 2006 2:34:54 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly agree with that quote.
For reasons I am too tired to explain right now... tomorrow my lovies...
Good night.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 10:04:49 GMT -5
I also wholehartedly agree with that statement. Religion is the quest to answer the question "why?" If one excludes facts on the arbitrary consideration as to whether they agree with texts written thousands of years ago by men ignorant of much of what we take for granted in today's society, one is seriously impeding religion's task. Christianity should not fear the discovery of truth, it should fight for it. People fear change, however. And fear is a powerful motivator. Please see my post under "People who have never been exposed..." I have reprinted part of it below: Jesus' mission was not to absolve sin, but to remove the urge to hurt our fellow man (and woman) and to teach us how to live a life of compassion and love. I have a hard time reconciling the Jesus who ate with outcasts with the God who sent floods to kill the entire world population with one act of mass genocide. Hitler may destroy people with fire, but God does it with water. I have a hard time reconciling the Jesus who preached a doctrine of forgiving one's enemies with a God who sends bears out to maul over 40 children for calling a prophet "baldy-head." This God sounds an awful lot like the kind of person who uses violence or the threat thereof to keep people in line, this God seems to demand absolute allegiance to a whimisical code of "justice." Perhaps we should call him "Il Duce" or "der Führer." This God's modus operandi is fear. Jesus' called for love, and died in the most symbolic act of compassion known to man. How dare you compare them? How dare you sully a message of personal fulfillment with one of terrorism? How dare you call for all men live their lives in fear? That is not the message of Jesus. The message of Jesus is a message which allows all to have the courage to be--something that fear makes impossible. If I may, I would like to quote a few human thinkers on the topic of religion and truth. "Fundamentalism is rigourously and systematically used to indoctrinate and subjugate young minds. It is a contraceptive designed to prevent intellectual fertilization." --Stephen Jay Gould "Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based." --Ambrose Bierce "Real religion should be something that liberates men. But churches don't want free men who can think for themselves and find their own divinity within." --Federico Fellini "What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite." --Bertrand Russell Indeed, Alison, I think the best way to explain why some religious people wish to supress the truth is because "The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear."-Herbert Agar Of course, Bertrand Russell put it aptly when he said that "Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly on fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes....A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering over the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men." For all of you out there who are undecided on this question of how religion supresses truth, think of it in these terms: "You ought to be suspicious of people who want to keep you in ignorance, and you ought to ask why. Whose interests does it serve to keep you ignorant...? Your own?" Quoting Michael Nava and Robert Dawidoff.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 10, 2006 13:56:15 GMT -5
Very nice quotations Trekker.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 15:27:52 GMT -5
Anyway, back to fear...
Why other than fear would a thread like that be deleted? It is no more offensive than the homosex threads. Or perhaps their fate will be the same now that non-fundamentalists are posting. Are the good old boys scared that their glass ceiling is developing cracks? Fear is a powerful motivator, indeed.
One question though. I was just going to post a response to Armen's outburst about the abomination that is the largest Christian denomination in the world, Roman Catholicsim, when the masturbation thread was deleted--so I'll post it here instead, this thread at least deals with fear. Perhaps the fear that he expresses at the mere mention of the Catholic Church is related to the location listed in his profile: Northern Ireland. Anybody else notice that?
Your fear is what leads to terrorism. On two levels. One, your propogation of fear terrorizes many, and two, it encourages people to commit acts of terror on those around them.
If God sanctions violence, why then can man not?
Shame on you! Shame on you for allowing fear to affect your image of God. You are so affraid of those who are different from you, who believe in a different way that you will invoke God's name against God's own children! Shame! How dare you?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 14, 2006 18:18:40 GMT -5
I have a question, Why is the question Why even their? It would seem that the way you belive, why would not matter. Purposelesness and pointlesness is on the other side of the coin of atheism and agnosticism.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 14, 2006 23:11:04 GMT -5
Actually, you're right. "Why?" is pretty irrelevent to me. What matters is that we're here. Now, that's not to say that I don't think about it, but I can't see how trying to define an answer really helps to live life in a positive way.
What do you think?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 15, 2006 1:46:27 GMT -5
I have a question, Why is the question Why even their? It would seem that the way you belive, why would not matter. Purposelesness and pointlesness is on the other side of the coin of atheism and agnosticism. I must agree with Hopefulheart--welcome back, by the way--"why?" is not particularly important to me. It doesn't matter why humanity exists, or why there is poverty in the world; it only matters that there is such a thing. We have to cope with the situations we encounter regardless. Just because I don't claim to be Christian, does not mean that I am not spiritual. I refuse, however, to shrink any concept of a diety into a shape or form of my own making. If any of you believe that God is infinite, surely you understand that humans are finite. So also are the tools created by mankind: literature, art, so on. How can you expect to explain or define the infinite with finite means? I do not feel purposeless nor do I feel pointless. My journey is one of self-discovery and self-creation. It is one which I hope will enrich the lives of others. It is one which I hope will be enriched by others. I require no God to feel some obligation to self and to humanity.
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Post by drsocc on Apr 15, 2006 11:48:05 GMT -5
Anyway, back to fear... Why other than fear would a thread like that be deleted? It is no more offensive than the homosex threads. Or perhaps their fate will be the same now that non-fundamentalists are posting. Are the good old boys scared that their glass ceiling is developing cracks? Fear is a powerful motivator, indeed. One question though. I was just going to post a response to Armen's outburst about the abomination that is the largest Christian denomination in the world, Roman Catholicsim, when the masturbation thread was deleted--so I'll post it here instead, this thread at least deals with fear. Perhaps the fear that he expresses at the mere mention of the Catholic Church is related to the location listed in his profile: Northern Ireland. Anybody else notice that? Your fear is what leads to terrorism. On two levels. One, your propogation of fear terrorizes many, and two, it encourages people to commit acts of terror on those around them. If God sanctions violence, why then can man not? Shame on you! Shame on you for allowing fear to affect your image of God. You are so affraid of those who are different from you, who believe in a different way that you will invoke God's name against God's own children! Shame! How dare you? Last edited by Jesse Morrell. What was the edit?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 15, 2006 12:27:06 GMT -5
"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"
Not all people are God's children. Sinners are children of the devil. You are born with a capacity to sin. You are born a child of the devil. "Unless a man be BORN AGAIN he cannot see the kingdom of God." You must recieve a new heart with new desires.
I dare invoke the name of God against sin because the word of God tells me to preach repentance and the remission of sins by the blood of Jesus. How dare you come here and push shame on God's true children and then condone homosexuality and abortion. If you were a true child of God then you would walk in the light of your conscience.
I have no image of God. That is called idolatry. I know the one true God. The God of the Bible. You need to repent or the God of the Bible will pour out his wrath upon you on the day of judgement. You, sinner, are idolatrous. Call me judgemental if you like. I am not afraid of you, if God be for me who can be against me. Unless you repent you will perish. Repent and trust in the saviour.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 16, 2006 16:39:42 GMT -5
The Bible is God's infallible word. Through prayer and the illumination of the Holy Ghost we can understand the infinite to an extant. I know God personally and He reveals things to His redeemed through his word and prayer. It isnt our fault that God doesnt hear your prayers.
I guess I can buy that, Jesus talked much about demoniacs, He even drove demons out of people. I guess you could consider demon posessed people spiritual. Just because you claim spirituality doesnt mean you have the right spirit indweling you. Remeber, satan is a spirit as well. The only spirit that can save you is the Holy Spirit, God the Holy Spirit.
And self rightouesness, self love, selfishness, pride, and d**nation at last. My hands are clean of you blood, your choice is you choice and I cannot make it for you.
By this statement you prove your ignorance to scripture and your ignorace of God. I need no God to feel a obligation to self, I need God to get rid of that. Self is sin. You dont love humanity, you lead them down the broad path to hell. The blind leading the blind is disastrous for both, they will both fall into the pit.
You need ato repent from all sin and trust in Jesus. I noticed you were awfully silent after my last post. Were you offended or just silenced. Either way, it doesnt matter, as long as you read it.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 16, 2006 21:58:50 GMT -5
"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" Perhaps, but I would say that "A liberal education frees a man from the prison-house of his class, race, time, place, background, family, and even nation," which is a quote attributed to Robert Maynard Hutchins. Fear is not something that leads to widsom, fear is something that paralyzes. People who are afraid of heights never see the view. People who are afraid of knowledge become fundamentalists. JUST KIDDING, but seriously, "Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth, more than ruin, more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to priviledge, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man," according to Bertrand Russell. My cardiologist begs to differ, plus my heart did fine on the rafting trip. Oh, so is that how geneaology works? You get to change parents, after all? By the way, what is being born again like? I wasn't really born the first time (according to Greek mythology). I have never condoned abortion on this board. All the same, I believe that it should be legal, if only as a last resort. Abortion is not a contraceptive, it is a medical proceedure which may actually save lives. I think that is a topic best saved for another thread, however. I didn't ask you why you dared to invoke god's name in condeming sin. I shamed you because you are allowing your fear to affect the manner in which you preach and the content of your preaching, and that is despicable, even by Biblical standards. I am glad that you are not afraid of me. I don't wish to inspire fear, it just kind of happens when I wear my boa around. Which God of the Bible? Do you mean YHWH or Elohim? They are clearly different gods; unless, of course, God is schizophrenic, which is entirely possible considering his history of racist and sadistic acts (read: Jericho, Sodom, Gomorrah, any other accounts of smiting.) And yes, I will perish, statistically, it will likely be in a motor vehicle accident, although considering the outdoor things that I do, I could die in a firey car crash while driving to an outdoor activity. Then again, I might die of something else, like an asthma attack caused by all of those idling automobiles on the Downtown Connector. "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." --Anne Lamott
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 16, 2006 22:16:50 GMT -5
The Bible is God's infallible word. Through prayer and the illumination of the Holy Ghost we can understand the infinite to an extant. I know God personally and He reveals things to His redeemed through his word and prayer. It isnt our fault that God doesnt hear your prayers. Well, if you can only understand the infinite to an extent, how is it that the Bible is completely inerrant and to be taken literally? You know God personally? God reveals things? Like how God chose Bush to be village idiot of Crawford? Because that's what Bush claims. What, has God's hearing aide battery run out again? I know how hard it is to find those little batteries. And then, with God's prescription, it must be impossible to put them in. I know bifocals can be a big adjustment.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 19, 2006 13:27:39 GMT -5
So you selfishly love others, that is still selfishness. YOu do it so you can get something. Selfishness is not a barrier, it is the gateway. The gateway to self and the gateway to hell. God commended his love for you in that while you were yet a sinner Christ died for you. Repent and trust him, or you will persih.
God will not have compassion on someone who openly mocks him with bifocals wisecracks and hearing jokes. Those things damn you to hell sinner. God will crack your wisdom and throw your immortal soul through the crack that leads to hell. You need to seek God, not yourself, not truth, not love, BUT GOD. You say what you want, I will say what I want, but God has the final say. The judgement seat will prove who is right. Sadly youwill be wrong....Unless you repent. unless you trust Jesus Christ and cast your pride at his feet and repent you will perish.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 19, 2006 17:04:45 GMT -5
So you selfishly love others, that is still selfishness. YOu do it so you can get something. Selfishness is not a barrier, it is the gateway. The gateway to self and the gateway to hell. God commended his love for you in that while you were yet a sinner Christ died for you. Repent and trust him, or you will persih. Ok, I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Let me try again, and you might want to check my other posts to better understand about love. I'm pretty sure that was discussed in depth in another thread. Love is not about recieveing at all. I don't give love so that I can recieve love. I give love merely to give it away. Love is one of only a few things that when given away, produces more of the same. (The other two are anger and hate.) The love that is produced comes not from others, but from within. And if you think giving love away is immoral, then I'm afraid we have nothing to discuss. But I do agree, that if you do anything in order to get something for yourself, then you are thinking of yourself (literally being selfish). That selfishness is what Hopefulheart means when he says that you shouldn't do good to get into heaven or stay out of hell. Actually, I hate to burst your bubble, but I wasn't mocking God with that joke, I was mocking you. I know that jokes aren't funny if you have to explain them, but I have a feeling that you didn't laugh at that bit of sarcasm anyway. You see, you said that it wasn't your fault that God didn't hear my prayers. So my tongue-in-cheek joke was that since you weren't jamming the PM (prayer modulation) bands, God must not be able to hear my prayers because God was hard of hearing. (Does God d@mn people to hell for making radio jokes too?) I suppose that God is up in the sky going, "la la la la la, I can't hear you...." So whose prayers does God hear? I ask you because you are personal friends with God. If God is indeed up there doing the "la la la" thing, I think now would be a good time to resurrect my "talk to the hand joke" which was on the deleted masturbation thread. You seem to think that you can separate self, truth, and love from God. That is an interesting stance. Yes, but if I cared about that, I would be being selfish, wouldn't I?
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