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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 14:14:58 GMT -5
Hey guys, it's me again. ^_^
I have a few questions for you.
A guy in the crowd asked me about this yesterday, but I don't think he ever got the chance to pose the question to you, and I'm curious to know myself, so here goes.
I think I know how you'll respond to this, from years of indoctrination in the Southern Baptist Church, but I want to give you the chance to tell me yourselves.
For people living in places (foreign countries etc) where they have never been exposed to the teachings of Jesus, have never seen a Bible, and have NO knowledge of Christianity, what do you think will happen to them when they die?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 8, 2006 14:20:09 GMT -5
It is funny that people think other people go to hell for not believing in Jesus. They go to hell for breaking God's law. Read Ezekiel, it is our fault then, "their blood will I require at your hands." Paul said we will still be saved, but "so as by fire". The spreading of the gospel is wrapped up in man now. If we fail, then it is our fault.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 14:24:46 GMT -5
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 14:33:49 GMT -5
Wow. That really wasn't the response I was expecting to be honest. I have heard many many Christians say that the people who are never exposed to the Gospel and therefore have no opportunity to make that choice, are exempt from the wrath of God and go to Heaven. You guys are even more radical than I thought. ;) Thank you for your response.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 14:43:21 GMT -5
Wow. That really wasn't the response I was expecting to be honest. I have heard many many Christians say that the people who are never exposed to the Gospel and therefore have no opportunity to make that choice, are exempt from the wrath of God and go to Heaven. You guys are even more radical than I thought. ;) Thank you for your response. No problem, and thanks for posting only one sentence out of the whole two page response as to make it look as if I am "insensitive" or something. Mabye you weren't doing that intentionally, but it looks like it. Not accusing, just an observation. For those of you who are really interested in this question, please read the whole thing.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 14:46:52 GMT -5
Wow. That really wasn't the response I was expecting to be honest. I have heard many many Christians say that the people who are never exposed to the Gospel and therefore have no opportunity to make that choice, are exempt from the wrath of God and go to Heaven. You guys are even more radical than I thought. ;) Thank you for your response. No problem, and thanks for posting only one sentence out of the whole two page response as to make it look as if I am "insensitive" or something. Mabye you weren't doing that intentionally, but it looks like it. Not accusing, just an observation. For those of you who are really interested in this question, please read the whole thing. I am interested, or I would not have asked. And I did read ALL of it, I just didn't feel like typing the whole thing in order to quote you. It's a PDF so I couldn't just copy/paste it. I'm not making you look insensitive dear, you ARE insensitive. You certainly need no help from me to make that any more plain.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 15:08:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the insult for standing up for the TRUTH. I just earned some treasure in Heaven from you...I appreciate it. I wouldn't say insensitive, just Truthful...
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 15:23:56 GMT -5
I am not insulting you. I'm simply stating the facts.
Do you know what "Direvrailian" means? "Dire" is French for "to speak." "Vrai" means "truth." I am, first and foremost, a speaker of the truth and I am simply looking at what you said, and seeing the truth in it.
Your message is based on insensitivity, intolerance, and closed-mindedness. Those are the facts.
And I find it personally offensive that the goal of your ministry is to earn "treasures in Heaven" for yourself. Should we not turn to God out of love and the desire to live more enriching lives, rather than to store up rewards for ourselves in the afterlife? Should we not seek to love our fellow man in THIS life, and to live meaningful existances in THIS life, rather than always looking to the life awaiting us after death? That is what Jesus told us. "The Kingdom of God is at hand." Remember that one? "At hand" means here and now. Not after we're dead.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 15:30:16 GMT -5
I am not insulting you. I'm simply stating the facts. And I find it personally offensive that the goal of your ministry is to earn "treasures in Heaven" for yourself. Great, I am here to do the same thing...state the facts and share the truth. Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that it was the "GOAL" of my ministry to store up treasures in Heaven. You don't even know me or anything about me. How can you come to that conclusion? I was simply stating the fact that you insulted me for standing up for the Truth of the Gospel. And God's Word says that when you are insulted, persecuted or harmed for Truth's sake that you are blessed and receive treasure's in Heaven. Just stating the facts, that's all...
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 15:31:45 GMT -5
I am not insulting you. I'm simply stating the facts. And I find it personally offensive that the goal of your ministry is to earn "treasures in Heaven" for yourself. Yes? Were you going to respond to that?
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 8, 2006 15:34:19 GMT -5
Yes? Were you going to respond to that? You sure are anxious to respond, aren't ya?
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Post by Morluna on Apr 8, 2006 15:44:26 GMT -5
I am not insulting you. I'm simply stating the facts. And I find it personally offensive that the goal of your ministry is to earn "treasures in Heaven" for yourself. Great, I am here to do the same thing...state the facts and share the truth. Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that it was the "GOAL" of my ministry to store up treasures in Heaven. You don't even know me or anything about me. How can you come to that conclusion? I was simply stating the fact that you insulted me for standing up for the Truth of the Gospel. And God's Word says that when you are insulted, persecuted or harmed for Truth's sake that you are blessed and receive treasure's in Heaven. Just stating the facts, that's all... Sorry I didn't realize you needed to edit... I did not mean to insult you and I apologize if I did. I have to go now and work on some things... talk to you later. Love and peace, Morluna
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Post by prolifedorothy on Apr 9, 2006 15:14:50 GMT -5
Morluna, when people are under the impression that "God sends people to Hell for not beleiving in Jesus" it does seem unreasonable. there are those who have never heard the Gospel. But when we understand that God's moral law is written in our hearts and our conscience bears witness and therefore we have no excuse for not knowing that lying, theft, adultery, murder, etc. This is what sends us to Hell.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 9, 2006 15:39:40 GMT -5
Thank you for the post Dorothy.
You make a somewhat valid argument, but I see a couple of problems with it.
According to your Bible, Jesus was sent to Earth to live among us, teach us, love us, and finally to die in our stead, to take our sin off of us and take it upon himself. He was the final sacrifice. This is why Christians today no longer take part in animal sacrifice. It is no longer necessary. After his death he rose again to return to Heaven. If someone has never heard this story, and are unaware of the sacrifice made for them, they will continue to believe that no matter what they do they are going to Hell, or that there is no Hell. If this is the case, what reason do they have to turn away from their "sin?"
Further, what would you say to someone who has a different understanding of morality from you? Someone who did not feel the same tuggings at their conscience that dictate your moral code? How are they to know if no one tells them?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 9, 2006 16:07:18 GMT -5
God will judge all men according to the knowledge that they had. All men, whether African, Chinese, American, Canadian, Australian, etc etc all have a conscience.
If a man has ever stolen, committed adultery, murdered, lied, etc then he will be punished for his sins.
The basis for condemnation is SIN.
But the basis for salvation is JESUS CHRIST.
Christ alone died for the sins of the world and so grace and mercy come through Christ alone.
If ignorance were a free-ticket to heaven, if people go to Heaven because they have never heard about Jesus Christ, then we need to stop sending missionaries to foriegn countries and also burn all the bibles and Church that are in our own so that the upcoming generation never hears about Jesus Christ.
They have the testimony of nature and the truth of conscience. All of creation testifies to the glory of God. And conscience is the internal repentance preacher given to all men. The reason anyone needs to repent is the same, "God commands all men everywhere (even in heathen/pagan lands) to repent because He has apointed a day when He will judge the world in righteousness." Acts 17:30-31
You have to understand, that according to the Christian world-view God has given light to every man. The bible says all men know what is right and what is wrong because God has given a conscience to all. All men have truth, but the bible says they supress the truth in unrighteousness. Many try to make their own morality, but they can never change the moral standard God has given the whole world, the standard by which He will judge all men.
However, many men numb that conscience and overide it. That is why conscience is not the ultimate test for morality, God's Word is! Christians do not get their moral code from their conscience soley. The conscience is limited. We are to get our morality from God's Word.
The bible asks the same question:
Ro 10:14 - "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Morluna, I think you need to get saved yourself, and then become a missionary to foriegn countries to get them saved as well.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 9, 2006 19:08:59 GMT -5
God will judge all men according to the knowledge that they had. All men, whether African, Chinese, American, Canadian, Australian, etc etc all have a conscience. If a man has ever stolen, committed adultery, murdered, lied, etc then he will be punished for his sins. The basis for condemnation is SIN. But the basis for salvation is JESUS CHRIST. Christ alone died for the sins of the world and so grace and mercy come through Christ alone. If ignorance were a free-ticket to heaven, if people go to Heaven because they have never heard about Jesus Christ, then we need to stop sending missionaries to foriegn countries and also burn all the bibles and Church that are in our own so that the upcoming generation never hears about Jesus Christ. So the only purpose of living a Christian life is to end up in Heaven at the end? It doesn't enrich your mortal life at all? That's nice to know. Soooo... some human beings are expected to just "get it" themselves by looking to their conscience. The same conscience that you informed me earlier could be incorrect in it's moral codes and assumptions... while other luckier folk who happen to be born in places where they have Bibles and preachers and TV and the internet and ALL kinds of materials are given the benefit of all this information, and the one's forced to rely on their conscience are held just as accountable as the ones with physical instructions in the form of a text? Oh, that seems fair.... NOT. Well yeah... how? Are you going to tell me? I THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE PREACHER MAN!!!!1 FREE ME FROM MY SINFUL WAYS!!! Heheh, thanks. Been there, done that, rather enjoyed it. ;D
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 1:15:14 GMT -5
I am not insulting you. I'm simply stating the facts. And I find it personally offensive that the goal of your ministry is to earn "treasures in Heaven" for yourself. Should we not turn to God out of love and the desire to live more enriching lives, rather than to store up rewards for ourselves in the afterlife? Should we not seek to love our fellow man in THIS life, and to live meaningful existances in THIS life, rather than always looking to the life awaiting us after death? That is what Jesus told us. "The Kingdom of God is at hand." Remember that one? "At hand" means here and now. Not after we're dead. I love the arguement, Morluna! Unfortunately it is probable that neither my nor your advocacy will get through to them. Hopefulheart attempted to explain this theory (that you shoud do good because it is good to do good, not because you fear punishment or hope for reward) in the "preaching against the sin of homosex" thread. Imagine this scenario: A man comes up to you and puts a gun to your head. You don't know this man at all. He says: "tell me you hate your wife or I will kill you." If you choose life and say you hate your wife, does that mean you actually hate your wife, or were you just saying that to get out of death? If you choose to die, are you any better off? Or how about this scenario: A man walks up to you and says: "I will give you $1 billion if you say you hate your wife." If you say you hate your wife, you are much richer, but does it mean that you really hate your wife? If you say no, you obviously still love your wife, but you don't get any reward. That is, in my opinion, the fallicy with being preoccupied with the afterlife. If you say you love God only because you fear hell, do you really love God? If you say you love God only because you want reward in the afterlife, do you really love God? At any rate, I have a question for all of you. Why does the good man avoid sin?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 1:26:45 GMT -5
It is funny that people think other people go to hell for not believing in Jesus. They go to hell for breaking God's law. Read Ezekiel, it is our fault then, "their blood will I require at your hands." Paul said we will still be saved, but "so as by fire". The spreading of the gospel is wrapped up in man now. If we fail, then it is our fault. Does that sound like a God you really want to believe in? I, personally, find it detestable that God would say to at least 60% of the world's population today that they were going to be sent into eternal punishment because some missionaries were not zealous enough. That sounds an awful lot like God punishing man A for the iniquity of man B. And what does man B get? A reward because he tried (just not hard enough to save man A). If your God makes the rules, why did God have to send his "son" to die? If God wanted to blot out the sins of the world without a blood sacrafice, all God would have had to have done would be to absolve all sins. God doesn't need symbolism. Jesus mission was not to absolve sin, but to remove the urge to hurt our fellow man (and woman) and to teach us how to live a life of compassion and love. I have a hard time reconciling the Jesus who ate with outcasts with the God who sent floods to kill the entire world population with one act of mass genocide. Hitler may destroy people with fire, but God does it with water. I have a hard time reconciling the Jesus who preached a doctrine of forgiving one's enemies with a God who sends bears out to maul over 40 children for calling a prophet "baldy-head." This God sounds an awful lot like the kind of person who uses violence or the threat thereof to keep people in line, this God seems to demand absolute allegiance to a whimisical code of "justice." Perhaps we should call him "Il Duce" or "der Führer." This God's modus operandi is fear. Jesus' called for love, and died in the most symbolic act of compassion known to man. How dare you compare them? How dare you sully a message of personal fulfillment with one of terrorism? How dare you call for all men live their lives in fear? That is not the message of Jesus. The message of Jesus is a message which allows all to have the courage to be--something that fear makes impossible.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 10, 2006 2:54:08 GMT -5
Words cannot express how amazing that last post of yours was, Trekker. I love it. Particularly the "der Fuhrer" comment. SO TRUE.
"God doesn't need symbolism." <--- This got me too. YES.
To answer your question... "Why does the good man avoid sin?"
This is a complicated question, and first of all, I would like to address my personal take on "sin." For me, a crime, wrongful act, or otherwise "sin," is any word or action that is harmful and disrepectful of others. I do not abide by the biblical definition of sin that most of the members of this board do. Now that we got that out of the way... I think the answer to this question can vary from person to person. A fundamental Christian for example, from my understanding (and they may correct me if m-y- assertions are wrong), avoids sin out of fear of punishment from God.
I on the other hand, avoid inflicting hurt or disrespect on others out of a basic respect and appreciation for my fellow man. I do not do this out of fear of punishment from God, but because I would want to be treated respectfully and with kindness, so it only makes sense for me to treat others and I want to be treated.
PS: Look what it does when I type m-y- a-s-s- "my behind." That confused me for a full 30 seconds.
Nice eh?
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Post by Tony Denham on Apr 10, 2006 16:30:18 GMT -5
When a person realizes by the grace of God that they are a wretch and that there is nothing good in them, and that they deserve to go to hell, only then will God's mercy and grace through the Cross become amazing.
Morluna you will probably die and go to hell because you are blaspheming the Holy Ghost. God is being so merciful and gracious to you right now. But your pride is keeping you from humbling yourself. Repent and Trust.
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Post by Tony Denham on Apr 10, 2006 16:35:25 GMT -5
The reason that I turn from sin is not only because I fear punishment but even more so is that my Lord Jesus Christ loved me enough to suffer for me. I choose not to sin out of love for what he did for me.
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Post by victorialewis on Apr 10, 2006 16:53:49 GMT -5
I am a former feminist, adulteress, fornicator, blasphemer, murderer (had an abortion in 1992), thief, liar, drunkard, covetous woman who worshiped at the altar of higher education (shortly before I left teaching, I had accumulated more than 170 credit hours, and was 4 classes short of my master's.). I say this not to boast, but to point out that I was chief amongst sinners. I had a 'conversion' experience at 16 (which was false - proof being a continuance of living in sin for the next 24 yrs), and dabbled in satanism, the occult, and eventually New Age. I WANTED to believe in reincarnation, crystals, astral projection, etc. However, as I was studying all of this, one little thought kept popping up. Where is the authority in all of this? It appeared that one could basically pull a philosophy out of one's hat, and poof! It was truth. However, when I began to employ logic, I realized that truth, by the very nature of its definition, is exclusive. Meaning that not everything can be true. I began to look at the claims of Christ when God brought a born-again believer to teach at my school. We began to pray together each morning (I believed in prayer, tho I considered my beliefs diametrically opposed to hers). It wasn't long before I realized that she KNEW God. I, on the other hand, was merely handing Him my laundry list of requests. Long story short? Two years later, I realized that I had broken every one of the Ten Commandments, and that I had sinned against the most Holy Being to exist. I cried out for mercy, and Jesus gave me a new heart, new desires, and washed me clean. It sounds crazy, but ask anyone who knew me B.C. I am not the woman I once was, praise God. I didn't come to Jesus for a 'better life'. I had attained many of my personal goals, was making more money than my husband, and life was good. I, however, realized that I was NOT. I came to Him because I came to understand that He deserves the reward of His suffering, that He truly is the way, the truth and the life, and I believed Him when He said, "No man comes unto the Father except by Me."
Wow. I just gave my testimony. Now I am sure I have opened up myself to some mean-spirited comments. But you know what? I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 20:42:39 GMT -5
When a person realizes by the grace of God that they are a wretch and that there is nothing good in them, and that they deserve to go to hell, only then will God's mercy and grace through the Cross become amazing. Wretch, n. 1) a miserable, unfortunate, or unhappy person. 2) a person regarded as base, mean or dispicable. You seem to regard humanity as worthless. You regard yourself as also worthless, if I understand you correctly. The only reason that you even consider yourself redeemable is because an act of compassion was performed on your behalf by Jesus of Nazareth. That is not healthy. If you truly believe that your own being is so dispicable, that the only way you can possibly live is because someone died for you, that you have no fundamental self-worth as an individual, your sense of being, of self will never be fully and healthily developed. If humans are indeed only worth something when they believe in the remission of sins through the blood of Jesus of Nazareth, that means that those who lived before him and those that live now are all worthless. WORTHLESS. NOT WORTH ANYTHING. When they die, there is no reason to pity them, becuase there was nothing that they could do to contribute to the world positively (other than by increasing your numbers, which they didn't do, so it's immaterial). If these are your beliefs, I can understand why wretch is an applicable definition. If you believe that you have no self-worth, I can understand why you'd be a miserable, unfortunate, or unhappy person. And if you believe that no one else has worth, I can see why they might understand you to be a person regarded as base, mean or dispicable. I take a different stance. I believe that all humans have fundamental worth. I wish I could feel compassion for each and every one of them without any effort, but compassion is perhaps the hardest thing to give. Everyone on this planet is capable of improving the quality of life of both they and others. We can truly help out our neighbors. Every time you love someone, you are displaying both your and their fundamental worth. You don't have to believe that Jesus was the messiah in order to gain worth, because you already have it. If you believe that humans have no fundamental worth then there was no reason for Jesus to die anyway. Perhaps you will say that Jesus died for us anyway because "God so loved the world," but God wouldn't have loved the world if humans didn't have some worth to him, and even that is some kind of worth. If you raise a child to believe that they are worthless, you can have your children removed for their protection. If you always tell your child that they can't do anything right, that they will never live up to your image, that even when they try, they fail, your child will grow up with serious emotional issues. That is because humans need to feel as if they are worth something--it's called self-esteem and it is the quest of every middle and high school student in the United States (and everybody else, too). Coming to terms with your self-worth is integral to becoming completely human. It is also important in the way in which you relate to those around you--you can't love others if you don't love yourself. Tony, I don't care if you hate yourself and think yourself worthless--although I reccomend against it for your health, but you cannot claim that others have no self-worth. I refuse to embrace the theology that says that the only reason for Jesus of Nazareth's life was for it to end. No, the compassion of Jesus of Nazareth was the capstone of his teaching, his doctoral thesis if you will; the time in his life when he had to walk the walk, but you don't complete your doctorate merely by completing a thesis; no, there is much more involved, like all of the course work beforehand, but more importantly, the changes that occur to oneself during the process. I like Barbara Ehrenreich's example, myself: "The preaching goes on, interrupted by dutiful 'amens.' It would be nice if someone would read this sad-eyed crowd the Sermon on the Mount, accompanied by a rousing commentary on income inequality and the need for a hike in the minimum wage. But Jesus makes his appearance here only as a corpse; the living man, the wine-guzzling vagrant and precocious socialist, is never once mentioned, nor anything he ever had to say. Christ crucified rules, and it may be that the true business of modern Christianity is to crucify him again and again so that he can never get a word out of his mouth." Indeed, Jesus never said that humans were worthless without him. That would be totally out of character for this Jesus of Nazareth fellow. He was very humble. For him, salvation lay not in awaitng God's final act of genocide, but rather in loving our neighbors as ourselves. He did things with those who were outcasts, those to whom society gave no value. He tells them that they are not valueless, that they are the ones who will inherit the kingdom of God. As Kierkegaard said, "truth always rests with the minority, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion." Your theology also devalues Jesus of Nazareth. Had Jesus not been crucified, if he had lived as he did, preaching the gospel of compassion, but then died of old age, we would all be worthless still, and I doubt you'd pay any attention to his teachings then either. If all that was important was the death of Jesus, God could have let Herod murder him along with the other male babies of Bethlehem. After all, wasn't he the perfect sacrafice (without sin) whether he was an infant or an adult? No, it was important for Jesus to live into adulthood, primarily becuase he was the first person to be fully human. He had the courage to be himself and nothing--neither great adoration nor absolute betrayal--would sway him from his mission. It is the message of Jesus that we all have fundamental worth, and that our world and our individual lives will be better off if we seek to always understand the fundamental worth of our neighbors--and especially our enemies.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 20:47:41 GMT -5
Morluna you will probably die and go to hell because you are blaspheming the Holy Ghost. God is being so merciful and gracious to you right now. But your pride is keeping you from humbling yourself. Repent and Trust. Wow! That is harsh. That is really harsh. It sounds like you can really empathize with Morluna's position. I wonder what brought that on? As far as I can tell, Morluna has said nothing particularly controversial on this thread, yet you think she's going to hell. I just compared God with not just Hitler, but ALSO Mussolini. I don't even get a response from you. What did Morluna do to get such a spiteful response? Just curious, because I was sure I was going to get one.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 10, 2006 20:54:52 GMT -5
"The preaching goes on, interrupted by dutiful 'amens.' It would be nice if someone would read this sad-eyed crowd the Sermon on the Mount, accompanied by a rousing commentary on income inequality and the need for a hike in the minimum wage. But Jesus makes his appearance here only as a corpse; the living man, the wine-guzzling vagrant and precocious socialist, is never once mentioned, nor anything he ever had to say. Christ crucified rules, and it may be that the true business of modern Christianity is to crucify him again and again so that he can never get a word out of his mouth."
Ah! You have the best quotes!!! I love that!
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 21:06:52 GMT -5
Ah! You have the best quotes!!! I love that! Thanks! I can quote people almost as well as the members of this board can quote scripture. This is because I value the entire body of human knowledge above any possession I could possibly have. (I know I'll get criticised, so before you guys say anything, please note that the Bible is included in said body). Anyway, whenever I find a quote I like, I write it down in my "Idea Book." I carry it everywhere.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 10, 2006 21:19:31 GMT -5
That's awesome. I should start doing that. I always see quotes I like, but I never seem to hang on to them.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 10, 2006 22:00:34 GMT -5
God will judge all men according to the knowledge that they had. All men, whether African, Chinese, American, Canadian, Australian, etc etc all have a conscience. If a man has ever stolen, committed adultery, murdered, lied, etc then he will be punished for his sins. The basis for condemnation is SIN. But the basis for salvation is JESUS CHRIST. Christ alone died for the sins of the world and so grace and mercy come through Christ alone. If ignorance were a free-ticket to heaven, if people go to Heaven because they have never heard about Jesus Christ, then we need to stop sending missionaries to foriegn countries and also burn all the bibles and Church that are in our own so that the upcoming generation never hears about Jesus Christ. Ok, so let me see if I understand you correctly. And do correct me if I am wrong. So we have consciences which tell us what is right and wrong. These consciences are programmed by God's moral code, so even if we have never heard of God, we still know what is right and wrong. If, at any point, we sin (that is, I am assuming, violate what our conscience says), we will be forced to suffer the consequences. So the consequences of sinning mentioned above are condemnation by God. So then, through Christ, one is forgiven for their iniquities. So, one can only be forgiven of their sins through the grace and mercy of Christ. I understand this statement to mean that if people who are ignorant of Christ can get into heaven, we should not spread the message of Christ because by spreading it we change the dynamics of the situation. Once they have been told of Christ, then they have to uphold a righteous life in order to get into heaven, which is a task at which they can fail. Therefore, I believe you to mean that the sole purpose of Jesus of Nazareth is to get people into heaven. His intent was not to improve the life of anyone, only the death. Ok, if I understood you correctly, I disagree. If God's law is really written on our hearts, then we can be good people without ever hearing the name of God, or knowing of God's existence. Therefore because (would this be the holy spirit?) God is within us, we have the capability of living good lives. Of course some people do have their iniquities. They therefore sin, which is the basis for condemnation, but Christ is the basis of salvation. Could the spirit of Christ not be in everyone regardless of whether they have heard the name? Did Christ not die for all of us? I belive that John's Gospel says that "God so loved the world." Perhaps then, Christ's "salvation" is poured out on everyone. (Not saying Christ is not the only way, just saying that you can follow that way without knowing that you are doing so.) Regardless of the above, however, I take issue with your use of missionaries. The sole purpose of missionaries, it seems, is to get people into heaven. The real job of missionaries should be to spread the good news of Jesus of Nazareth so that people's lives can be improved now, not after they are dead. Jesus of Nazareth himself did not avoid this task, even he worked for social justice in the world when he lived in it. If his sole purpose was to die for the absolution of sins, why did he think it important that compassion be propogated? If that was such an important part of his mission, why is it not an important part of ours? As Hopefulheart has said in other threads, the reasons that we should follow the life of Jesus of Nazareth is not because we want to get into heaven, but rather because we are interested in being compassionate beings not only for our own benfit, but primarily for the benefit of our neighbors. We should not, therefore, prosteletyze so as to improve the after-life of others, but rather to improve their actual lives, yes?
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Post by Tony Denham on Apr 10, 2006 22:50:28 GMT -5
wanderingtrekker: "Tony, I don't care if you hate yourself and think yourself worthless--although I reccomend against it for your health, but you cannot claim that others have no self-worth."
I see that you like to put words in peoples mouths. I don't hate myself nor do I think I'm worthless. I just acknowledge that I deserve the wrath of God.
I wasn't trying to be harsh to Morluna. I just don't want her to go to hell. I'm concerned for those that are lost, that's all. Maybe I will try to be a little more gentle.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 10, 2006 22:56:05 GMT -5
wanderingtrekker, I recommend "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" by Paris Reidhead. He was a missionary to Africa and shares his testimony about how he thought they were ignorant heathens and how he wanted to improve on their human conditions etc etc. His personal story is quite powerful. www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282
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