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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 16, 2006 22:54:57 GMT -5
I often hear "what is true for you might not be true for me" etc etc. I understand that my belief might not be someone elses belief and that belief can be relative in that sense. We must distinguish between truth and belief.
However I have a question for those of you who beleive that truth is relative:
"If truth is relative, then could this truth, that you say is true, that all truth is relative, be relative itself and thereby not always be true.?"
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 9:52:53 GMT -5
Jesse, They are all running scared. I posted this in the infidelguy forum and they just started swearing at me. This one is good to....
If everyone is right, and all truth is true, doesnt that mean Christianity is true?
Of course no one will say yes to that one, because that automatically nullifies every other religion. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes the the Father but through me."
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Post by Morluna on Apr 17, 2006 10:03:26 GMT -5
Actually yes... that can be true... for you... it isn't true for me however. I believe the Creator has provided numerous ways to reach enlightenment. If Christianity works for you, great. For me, there may be different ways to reach the same destination of understanding of the universe.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 10:38:03 GMT -5
The supposed principle: "Truth is relative".
The question at hand: "is this truth, that truth is relative, relative itself?"
The only two answers: yes or no.
If someone says "yes, this principle is relative" then they have canceled out their own principle. It self implodes and still leaves room for absolute truth.
If someone says "no, this principle is not relative" then they are claiming it to be absolute which also canceled out their own principle that there are no absolutes.
So truth is absolute because of the total impossibility of the contrary.
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Post by valentine on Apr 17, 2006 10:40:04 GMT -5
I believe the Creator has provided numerous ways to reach enlightenment. If Christianity works for you, great. For me, there may be different ways to reach the same destination of understanding of the universe. Yep. And for me, I'm still trying to learn what I believe, understand the world, discover who I am and always keep an open mind without closing any doors. And I am not "running scared." I do not know whether or not I will be judged after I die, or by whom, or what, or by what standards. But I know that I have done (and will continue to do) the best with what I was given in my life...and I am not afraid. EDIT: Just something to ponder. Have you noticed how Morluna and I have profoundly different beliefs, yet we remain the closest of friends and have never had an uncivil discussion on this forum? We're both at peace with what the other believes and would never try to get the other to change. I don't know about you guys, but there are no ideological prerequistes to be my friend, gain my trust, or make me respect you.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 10:51:33 GMT -5
Just to clarify.
Morluna and Valentine,
Do you believe truth is relative and if so, is that principle relative itself?
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Post by valentine on Apr 17, 2006 11:01:13 GMT -5
Just to clarify. Morluna and Valentine, Do you believe truth is relative and if so, is that principle relative itself? I believe we cannot know! ;D ...just like we cannot know so many other things about this world. We can only make our best guesses with what we learn, and attempt to make the right choices based on that.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 11:02:27 GMT -5
Are you sure of that? That's not an absolute statement is it?
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Post by valentine on Apr 17, 2006 11:07:22 GMT -5
Are you sure of that? That's not an absolute statement is it? If I were certain, I wouldn't have said "I believe." That's my best guess but hey, I could be wrong! But I am not worried because it is my best guess and I have tried (and will continue to try) to discern the truth about the world as it appears to me, and to do this while being a person I can live with and respect at the end of the day. Therefore, I think I'm doing just fine.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 12:12:43 GMT -5
But if it's impossible to be certain of any truth, wouldn't that be an impossible attempt?
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 17, 2006 12:26:17 GMT -5
Morluna Said:
THink of what you just said.
Now think of what Jesus said, Joh 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'"
Jesus is the very embodiement of truth, "I am...the truth..."
Jesus came to testify of the truth, Joh 18:37 "Pilate therefore said unto him, 'Art thou a king then?' Jesus answered, 'Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.'"
Pilate asked the same question you do, "What is truth" and you will never know unless you come to Christ.
Now either Jesus is a liar, or your view is false. Everyone cannot be right, and all truth cannot be truth. "let every man be a liar, but God be true".
Like I have said before in other places, and Jesse started with, "the very statement 'there is no absolute truth' is an absolute and therefore cannot be true."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 12:32:40 GMT -5
If truth is not absolute then there is no truth. If truth is not absolute one could not say truthfully that there is no truth. Neither could one say anything truthful at all, either about the nature of truth or about the journey for truth.
If truth is not absolute, someone couldn't say "what is true for you is not true for me" because even this wouldn't be true. We must see the difference between belief and truth. You could say, "what you believe is not what I believe".
Jesus is not merely a way, a truth, a life. He is THE way, THE truth, THE life.
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Post by valentine on Apr 17, 2006 13:16:04 GMT -5
But if it's impossible to be certain of any truth, wouldn't that be an impossible attempt? I do my best. That's all I can say in the end. If I didn't try, then I would be deliberately ignorant and would be in the wrong. And I fully believe that you are doing your best as well. I have a lot of faith in people; I think they are basically good. I think you are mistaken in your methods and I disagree with your beliefs, but I think you are in earnest.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 17, 2006 13:22:38 GMT -5
I would like to quote something WanderingTrekker said, and he was quoting someone else, but I forget who... and I paraphrase... "Encourage he who is forever seeking for the truth, but do not trust he who claims to have found it."
I'm curious to know, of the Christians here, well not necessarily just the Christians, but specifically them... how long has it been since you came to this supposed truth... in other words... when was the last time you assessed your own beliefs and came to the conclusion that you might be wrong about something.. how long since your views on an issue have changed or shifted in any way?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 13:34:33 GMT -5
Are you saying you find this statement to be true?
I have known Jesus Christ aka the way, truth, and the life, for a little over 5 years.
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Post by valentine on Apr 17, 2006 13:35:21 GMT -5
I'm curious to know, of the Christians here, well not necessarily just the Christians, but specifically them... how long has it been since you came to this supposed truth... in other words... when was the last time you assessed your own beliefs and came to the conclusion that you might be wrong about something.. how long since your views on an issue have changed or shifted in any way? Last semester, actually! I had a bad image of the concept of feminism and didn't identify myself as one. I actually found an essay I wrote a few years ago that asserted that I wasn't a feminist (I cringed when I read it, but yeah). After I took Psychology of Gender and learned about what this word means, the ideas behind it, and the misconceptions that many people have (myself included!), I realized that I was a feminist and that there seemed nothing wrong with the way they were doing things. In fact, it was an idea I could get behind. I don't change my opinions often, admittedly, but if I'm shown that I was incorrect, you'd better believe that I will re-evaluate things. I am not a rock--I think.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 17, 2006 13:51:14 GMT -5
Are you saying you find this statement to be true? I have known Jesus Christ aka the way, truth, and the life, for a little over 5 years. I do find that to be true, yes. And as to your trick question about the relativity of truth... yes I do believe truth is relative. I thought I'd made that clear.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 14:04:26 GMT -5
So then should I not trust you as the quote recommends?
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Post by Morluna on Apr 17, 2006 14:14:49 GMT -5
Uh... I don't claim to have the truth. ^_^
I'm currently looking for it.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 14:23:44 GMT -5
You said you find the quote you gave to be true.
But the quote says you should question anyone who says they find truth.
My point is that if you say that you should not trust anyone who finds truth, then the statement itself disqualifies itself from trust since it claims to be true.
To say truth cannot be achieved, or that you shouldn't trust anyone who says they find it, really is a cop out and will never help advance our world but will only keep society at a level of stupidity.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 17, 2006 18:04:14 GMT -5
You said you find the quote you gave to be true. But the quote says you should question anyone who says they find truth. My point is that if you say that you should not trust anyone who finds truth, then the statement itself disqualifies itself from trust since it claims to be true. To say truth cannot be achieved, or that you shouldn't trust anyone who says they find it, really is a cop out and will never help advance our world but will only keep society at a level of stupidity. So... questioning and uncertainty = stupidity now? That's nice to know.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 20:46:22 GMT -5
The purpose of questioning is to find answers. But if you say that the answers are unknowable and that you could never be sure of them, and if you do become sure of them you are wrong, is just absurd and hinders any genuine and sincere search for the truth.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 17, 2006 23:18:20 GMT -5
The quote which Morluna is trying to recall is:
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide
Your word games grow tiresome, Jesse. The trick in twisting someone's words is to do it so that they don't notice, then spring the trap. It isn't always possible, and it will fail if you are too obvious about it.
Morluna did not say that this quote was the truth, she said that she agreed with it. There is a difference in the usage of truth the way she used it.
This quote also does not say that people who do find the truth are wrong. It only says that you should doubt them.
And I believe that the point Morluna is trying to make about self-re-examination is along the same lines as a Bertrand Russell quote which I used recently:
"Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality."
and another, also by Russell
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people are so full of doubts."
Now, Jesse, Please don't go off on a rant about Bertrand Russell, I have read your posts to that effect, and this thread is not about Bertrand Russell.
The point that Morluna was trying to make was that if you don't constantly re-examine your beliefs, you will stagnate and you will not grow. Once you have discovered the "truth," you no longer seek to find more knowledge. At any rate, uncertainty is something that is key to rationality. I can say for certain that my bicycle is black, and that is the truth. What I cannot say for certain is that God doesn't exist. I just don't know. And that's fine with me, I'm just attempting to gain an understanding of the world. I can't say that I will ever understand it, but that's no reason not to try.
I should also point out that I don't believe truth is relative. I addressed that with two posts in this thread already, but Jesse deleted them.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 17, 2006 23:22:37 GMT -5
I do pray that you all come to know the truth - Jesus Christ Himself.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 18, 2006 8:25:14 GMT -5
Thanks Trekker for putting my own thoughts into better words. Hahah, that is just what I was trying to say.
I'm a little uncertain about this "is truth relative" question... I've thought for some time that truth is relative... that what is true for one person may not be true for another... but I'm not sure anymore. Talking to you guys has helped me to redefine a lot of my own beliefs but it has also made me question others. This is one of them. I feel more like... "BELIEF is relative" would be more accurate in my mind at this point. It seems to me that because one can never be certain of the truth that really, truth matters very little... that belief and understanding is more important.
Maybe truth isn't relative after all... I don't know... I'd like to talk about this more... why do you think truth is not relative?
Jesse: ... *shakes head* Sigh... I give up.
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Post by dmclayton on Apr 18, 2006 14:09:13 GMT -5
consider this:
everything is universally relative and/or relatively universal.
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Post by Jules on Apr 19, 2006 17:00:11 GMT -5
Morluna, Just this past year I reevaluated almost everything I believed in (spiritual that is) I figured that I will either walk away with stronger convictions about what I believed at the time, or walk away with a better understanding of the truth as a result of changing some of my viewpoints. I was challenged to do this by the following statement: A faith unchallenged is a faith unchanged. All my life I was TOLD what to think, never did I check it out on my own. So I did, I started from the beginning, with the first question, the first presuppostion I had: Is there a God? I went from there to "Does he want mankind to know of him?" If so, what does he want us to know of him? How has he reveled himself? etc. It was a painful process because it really did test my faith, and I did come out changed. But now I have a much clearer picture of who God is and why he does what he does. I would have never known that had I not questioned my own views. But I will never have to do so again. Because if anyone asks "Why do you believe what you do?" I can honestly answer them and say why. It isn't just something my parents taught me (btw I disagree with much of my parents religious views) I searched out myself. And God proved faithful.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 19, 2006 19:10:41 GMT -5
*cuddles Morluna and Trekker*
It seems to me that this question is meant to clarify terms, which is always useful. Beliefs are relative. Something is either true or it's not true... though I've had my head spun completely around by one of my close friends on that topic.
But without complicating this topic, I think truth is absolute and we are all seeking that truth in one way or another.
I might have to come back to this topic.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 23, 2006 19:50:41 GMT -5
hopefulheart,
You can see my point then. Beliefs are relative but truth cannot be.
So since truth is in fact absolute, then truth especially in the realm of religion can be realized and acknowledged by the individual. It is a cop out to simply say, "well, nobody can know for sure."
The age old question Pilate simply stated, "what is trut?."
The answer older then time itself clearly stated by Christ, "I am the truth."
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 24, 2006 19:22:27 GMT -5
Yes, truth is absolute... but everyone disagrees on who has the right claim on Truth. S'why there are so many different religions, is it not?
I mean, goodness.... Protestant religions (pardon me if I'm wrong) were formed because Martin Luther had a different claim on Truth... even wanted to cast out a ton of books from the Bible, right?
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