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Post by dmclayton on Apr 18, 2006 13:59:33 GMT -5
..some rants for non-believers to consider when debating jesse:
circular argumentation. a tactic which, in its simplest form, is not very persuasive. unfortunately, i feel that i must explain this 'secular' terminology to jesse, and to prove that i am not 'misinterpreting' it to wrong him i will borrow the example from wikipedia dot org.
a circular argument follows this structure:
for example, here is an attempt to prove that paul is telling the truth -
*Suppose Paul does not lie when he speaks. *Paul speaks. *Therefore, Paul is speaking truth. These statements are logical, but they do nothing to convince one of the truthfulness of the speaker. The problem is that in seeking to prove Paul's truthfulness, the speaker asks his audience to assume that Paul is telling the truth, so this actually proves "If Paul is not lying, then Paul is telling the truth." which is nothing more than a tautology.
christians like jesse, not all mind you, would much rather scare you into christianity or trick you into his/her belief systems. jesse puts of signs reading, "you are going to burn in hell", and the like to anger you, pass out money to reel you in, and then sell the propaganda to you by putting you through a terrifying guilt trip, i.e. "everything you do is wrong."
alas, it does not end at this. jesse travels across the country depending on the 'kindness' of others so that he may abuse the freedoms of others. he is a freeloader who does not appreciate the free choice he has to worship christ so he manipulates the rights of others by pressing his faith upon them. jesse has no job. he makes no money of his own. he pays no taxes.
(***does jesse deserve to live in the united states of america if he is a freeloading bum who violates the rights of others with his offensive religion? i say no. ship him to africa to 'convert the savages' and i guarantee you that they would rip him a new one. we, tolerant americans, are too kind and gracious to people like jesse. we need to pull the chain, and retain control of him.***)
jesse has this website and a xanga where he publishes soundbytes, essays, and posts pictures of himself preaching. this is all about jesse. this is not the work of god you are seeing here. this is egoism, or megalomania at its finest.
jesse has even claimed perfection. this claim literally means that he believes himself to be on the same platform as christ who also claimed to be without sin.
this is hypocrisy. what christian posts his intimate actions on the web for the world to see? where is the humility and grace that the bible speaks of as characteristics of a christian? this attitude that is so often portrayed by jesse and other christians is a, "see god, see what (i) am doing." a true christian would never speak a word to anyone of his actions. a christian goes unnoticed...
here me out non-believers and consider what is true and false christianity. false christianity is what we see and hear everday that makes us sick to our stomachs. the few christians who are 'good guys' are the ones we never hear anything about. we see them do incredible things for people, but they want absolutely no credit.
do you see this in jesse? i do not. what does this make him?
a false prophet, perhaps?
will jesse acknowledge my post as an attack against him and god? most likely. will he delete it so that others will fail to see through the sheeps clothing...i would probably bet my life on it.
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Post by tonyholland on Apr 19, 2006 13:42:13 GMT -5
I have been very curious about something. Sir, what is your motive here? You were kicked off the boards, sign back up under another screen name and continue your attacks against not the theology and views that you are seeing here, but against Jesse.
The question that I have is this...If you are so unhappy with what you are reading, why stay? Certainly why come back after being asked to leave the boards? You are critical of everything from Jesse removing posts, to circular reasoning. What would motivate you to continue to look at this board if it brings you so much frustration. Are you on some type of crusade to rid the internet of message boards that you deem intolerant and unfair? Are you seriously expecting the Christians on this board to say...."You know, maybe this God stuff is wrong." I don't mean to seem mean spirited, but it just bewilders me. If you do this just to amuse yourself by attempting to irritate others.....man, get a hobby or something.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading the posts from people with different views on this board. It challenges me and keeps me on my toes. I hope that everyone else is receiving some type of benefit also and I hope that you guys stay around. On the other hand, the personal attacks in response to having a post deleted is, well, silly. Now, I am sure that the first response will be something to the effect of , "it was silly to delete my post"...maybe, maybe not, but the board belongs to those who are able to do the deleting. Just assume that if you are posting something to be provocative that there is a pretty good chance it might get deleted. That is simply the rules here. Address the concerns with Jesse, and let it be guys and girls.
Again I thank all of you for being here, let's just keep it in between the lines.
God Bless
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Post by Morluna on Apr 19, 2006 14:08:05 GMT -5
Clayton, I am more than sympathetic to your views... and I agree with your arguments... but I must also agree with Tony concerning the antagonistic approach you're employing... let's try not to turn this into a personal attack on Jesse, please? Believe me, I understand what you're saying and I totally agree that a lot of the arguments on this board are circular and repetitive... but the only thing posts like this one are going to accomplish is to hurt people's feelings and make them angry.
Again, I completely sympathize... and I will admit that I've acted less than mature and respectful on these boards myself at times... but I am trying to do better now. Let's just try and engage in a healthy debate rather than slinging personal insults back and forth at one another.
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 19, 2006 15:07:51 GMT -5
I am not so sure that this could even be considered cirular reason as you suppose. Circular reasoning simplified is this, Proving the Bible by using the Bible. But circular reasoning is the only way to prove anything. In order to examine evidence you must examine the evidence, or to even simpolify that more, evolutionists sometimes say that the proof is in the pudding (but they can never show you the pudding).
The same can be said for anyone who tries to disprove the Bible. In order to thouroghly disprove the Bible you must disprove the very statements contained in the Bible. Like for example, "IN the beginning God..." Unless you can thoroughly and accurately disprove this statemnt than you arguments are worthless.
On the contrary, to be consistent with my own method, I must disprove this statement, "In the beginning BANG!!" Which to someone looking for the facts really is not that difficult.
First....When did an explosion ever create order. A terrorist bomb does not create harmony, but rather chaos. If, as the evolutionists suppose, the universe came from a bang, where then did the bang come from. What made the bang.
Second....The universe is prime evidence that creation is true, but let me ask you, where did the space for the universe come from? Did it just appear? When you can accurately answer this question then I will heed anything you say. But I thik you need to think before you speak becuase one day you will have to fave a holy God for judgement and then what will you do?
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Post by Jules on Apr 19, 2006 16:34:35 GMT -5
..some rants for non-believers to consider when debating jesse: Actually dmclayton, whoever you are, many of the non-believers or non-Christians on this board don't generally make personal attacks against Jesse. True, some of us (Christians included) have stepped across the line with each other in our debates and they got a bit personal and we became unfocused. We've even been guilty of that with disagreements among the Christians here. But I think that things have changed, and all of us are making efforts to try and respect other's as individuals and people, while still retaining our right to our beliefs and convictions. Discussions are good and profitable, as long as decency is retained. Personal attacks are a waste of time, childish, and have no place here. Most of the people on this board are here for edification and education - both for themselves and others. It is only on a healthy forum that this can take place. Case in point: Morluna's wise response to your personal attack. She herself doesn't agree with everything Jesse says or does, but she has learned to express herself in a way that doesn't undermine her argument, point, or objections. We would all do well to learn from her example. It is only when we can all do that that everyone benefits. I'm glad to be here, and for everyone else who is here. If you want to engage in mature discussions, then please join in. But from the tone of your post, your motive appears to be purely destructive and slanderous in nature and while I think it probably should be removed, Jesse probably won't because that is the kind of guy he is - and for that I am glad. SO if I were you, I wouldn't start betting your life on anything, especially if you haven't repented.
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Post by dmclayton on Apr 20, 2006 5:46:39 GMT -5
unfortunately, i was not attacking jesse's character. the truth hurts sometimes...afterall, that is what he preaches. you (christians) find it so slanderous because you believe in him. you think he is incapable of wrong. afterall, he has claimed perfection. i have met him personally and have evaluated his actions through meeting, speech, writing and even photograph. i do admit that i would only be wrong if i had no idea who jesse was and simply disagreed with him, but this is so much more. this is the difference between light and darkness, ignorance and enlightment, and perhaps salvation and false prophecy.
i assumed most of you would think of me as someone who has come to attack jesse, and i have no problem with accepting that some people do not want to live their own lives. some people were born and bred to be followers, oh well.
morluna, the problem is not that [jesse] cannot be accepted for who he is, but at what point do we draw the line and refuse to be 'politically correct' or 'tolerant of others' when the 'others' are destroying us and/or our ways of life? this is something to consider, and if jesse crosses that line then people must know the truth about him, because that is the only way he can be stopped. it is very important that in jesse's profession that you gain people's trust (he will say its not, because he doesnt care about reputation, but continue reading). a person must trust you before they are willing to open themselves to what you have to say. then, and only then, can jesse's ideas be fed into them and they take root of their own, i.e. jesse plants a seed and his god waters it. reputation is important. trust is important.
what on earth makes [anyone] think that they can trust jesse? (christians cannot answer this question objectively because they are already christians)
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Post by Morluna on Apr 20, 2006 8:25:04 GMT -5
... Have you read ANY of my posts? Of course I realize that we can't allow our rights to be trampled upon, but I don't see how slinging personal insults is going to make any headway in understanding one another.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 20, 2006 9:37:33 GMT -5
Clayton is harmless. I witnessed to him once at a starbucks and he's declared war against me ever since.....
welcome to the boards dusty.
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Post by Jules on Apr 20, 2006 12:28:24 GMT -5
unfortunately, i was not attacking jesse's character. the truth hurts sometimes...afterall, that is what he preaches. you (christians) find it so slanderous because you believe in him. you think he is incapable of wrong. afterall, he has claimed perfection. i have met him personally and have evaluated his actions through meeting, speech, writing and even photograph. what on earth makes [anyone] think that they can trust jesse? (christians cannot answer this question objectively because they are already christians) Clayton, I've met Jesse in person too. I've seen him preach in person, and we have mutual friends. So I'm not some "Jesse groupie" here - I'm led by the Spirit of God and not someone else. I doubt Jesse will be breaking out the kool-aid anytime soon. (for those of you who don't know what that reference is too - Cult leader Jim Jones) I don't trust Jesse. I'll be the first to admit it. I don't really trsut anyone, because man in sinful, wicked, and our hearts of deceitful above all things. But I do trust God, His Holy SPirit that TESTIFIES to me through discernment about people. THis is how I live my life. I get red flags all the time about people - discernment. I know when something sis wonky and when something is legit (most of the time anyway) because I stay anchored in prayer and God's Word. By the way - you should't trust Jesse either and I don't think anyone is asking you to. Open the Bible and start reading it. See what happens. Because on judgment day, do you really think God is going to accept your feeble excuse of "Jesse made me mad and distracted me and I never found the truth?" Each man must give an account FOR HIMSELF. You would do well to search your own heart, motives and condition before a holy God and not waste your time pointing fingers at others. Jesus told Peter not to worry about John's life and ministry. SO don't worry about Jesse. If he is in sin, it's God job to deal with it, not ours. If he is wrong about something, it is the Lord's re3sponsibility to correct him, and He will! So rest assured, Just concern yourself with YOURSELF. It's really easy to do, cause most of us are very self-centered already. (myself included)
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Post by dmclayton on Apr 21, 2006 14:41:18 GMT -5
morluna, what is there to understand about jesse? he will not change, and neither will you. right? the only way to successfully debate someone like jesse is to turn others against him by exposing him--by doing this, i do not mean 'slandering' him or insulting his god. i cannot apologize for my words or actions, and neither will jesse, as we will both fight for what we believe in. i believe that what he is doing is harmful to our society, and he believes that your lifestyle and my beliefs are inherently evil. i do understand the need to understand people like jesse, but i already understand him so i have no spare time to waste while everyone else tries to figure him out. again, morluna and others, you say i personally insult him but i have done no such thing. i have simply stated what i know to be the truth through evidence. when i compare jesse to a terrorist, i mean it with all of my heart.
like i said, and will say time and time again: people can debate jesse using whatever method they like, and christians can defend jesse with whatever method they like, but in the end everything we say is relative and no one's mind is changed. the minds i am trying to save are the ones who are fragile and desperate to cling to anyone and anything (the reason why people turn to god and religious zealots like jesse) and simply let them know that jesse's version of christianity is perverted. i have no intention of changing jesse's mind, or any of the christians here. this forum is for non-believers, and this is who i intended this post to be directed towards. this is for the kids who have never met jesse, or the ones who have been invited to the site by jesse and company who are teetering on the brink of christianity and know nothing of his character; which, in the long run, should amount to quite a bit given the fact that he is supposed to be speaking god's word. finally, if you still think i am insulting him then change the direction of this post and challenge me to provide you all with biblical evidence that what jesse is doing is unfounded. i already provided basic information, but if need be i will write a bloody dissertation on it.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Apr 21, 2006 14:49:25 GMT -5
wow Clayton. You act like Jesse is the protestant pope or something... I guess you can start exposing every other Christian on this site also. I've got news... we are all very similar. And we plan on preaching Christ until we die.
EDIT: and to my knowledge many of us haven't ever met. I guess birds of a feather flock together. I think it's funny you act like Jesse is our leader or something.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 16:20:51 GMT -5
I don't trust Jesse. I'll be the first to admit it. I don't really trsut anyone, because man in sinful, wicked, and our hearts of deceitful above all things. But I do trust God,...because I stay anchored in prayer and God's Word. Doesn't this kinda put you into a pinch since it's this same wicked mankind that are feeding you the word of god? Unless there is some recent skylettering I missed.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 16:56:55 GMT -5
I am not so sure that this could even be considered cirular reason as you suppose. Circular reasoning simplified is this, Proving the Bible by using the Bible. But circular reasoning is the only way to prove anything. In order to examine evidence you must examine the evidence, or to even simpolify that more, evolutionists sometimes say that the proof is in the pudding (but they can never show you the pudding). The same can be said for anyone who tries to disprove the Bible. In order to thouroghly disprove the Bible you must disprove the very statements contained in the Bible. Like for example, "IN the beginning God..." Unless you can thoroughly and accurately disprove this statemnt than you arguments are worthless. Then by your own reasonig any book that says there was no god in the beginning makes all of your arguments worthless untill you can prove that god was there in the beginning. Way to stay on topic! Anyways as I addressed in another thread by accepting circular reasoning you wold have to accept the book/pamphlet that was written and said, "Scientology is true. Everything in this pamphlet is true," as being true by your own standards. "what proof is there that Scientology is true? The pamphlet says it's true. How do we know the pamphlet is true? The pamphlet says it's true." What's in the pamphlet doesn't have a lot of evidence for itself and you can't really discredit somebody for not believeing the pamphlet. Now plug in the worb bible for pamphlet and you'll see what evanschaible is doing and why it's worthless. To refute his statement that, "But circular reasoning is the only way to prove anything." here's a proof that doesn't require any circular reasoning. Warning! Skip this part if you're threatend by elemtary algebra...if a=b and then b=c .... then a=c. To plug in a value for c say 4, to show that i'm proving something. so if c=b then b=4 and if b=4 then a=4, and all of this quite linear not circular. Or nonmathmatically you could prove that there is a force of gravity by dropping stuff. To say that all proofs are circular is idocy.
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fattychunks
New Member
why did jesus go into the sky? cuz someone climbed Mt Olympus
Posts: 4
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Post by fattychunks on Apr 23, 2006 16:57:19 GMT -5
yea you did miss it, it said something like... good year or something, i wasnt paying attention
but ya know, i like clayton an trust him moreso then i would a christian actually. which i know sounds very unfortunate to some, but already he's placin himself up for critism, which shows so much more character then i ever see christians do. all they seem to want to do i preach and guilt trip and threaten everlasting (unknown amount of time btw) torment or whatever. i just hope i get to wear boxers.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 23, 2006 17:08:21 GMT -5
I didn't realize what that was!
I SAW THE SKYLETTERING!
It seems to happen quite a bit here in Atlanta, it's sort of a springtime thingy. I'm not sure if there's a correlation, but it always seems to happen on days when the Braves are in town. Maybe God is a Braves fan.
Anyway it said something to the effect of "Tom Jumper Ford: SALE: All 2005 models must go!"
GOD WANT'S YOU TO BUY FORD! GOD MUST THEREFORE SUPPORT THEIR ANTI-DISCRIMINATION POLICY.
GOD HAS SPOKEN! I HEARD YOU GOD!
I've got to go buy a Ford guys, back later.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 23, 2006 19:05:44 GMT -5
Clayton, how do you determine what is helpful and what is harmful to the society? How do you test actions to determine whether or not they are good or bad?
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fattychunks
New Member
why did jesus go into the sky? cuz someone climbed Mt Olympus
Posts: 4
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Post by fattychunks on Apr 23, 2006 19:59:26 GMT -5
it sure isnt anything divine, mr CS Lewis. =P it's morals. let the morals debate commence! *whip crack*
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 20:39:58 GMT -5
it sure isnt anything divine, mr CS Lewis. =P it's morals. let the morals debate commence! *whip crack* "Ding" The bible is a poor source for moral guidance. It promotes slavery, infantcide and sexism.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 23, 2006 21:20:38 GMT -5
jobafunky,
I see your arguement as a straw-man. "The bible promotes slavery etc." This is not true. The bible clearly condemned the forced slavery of the jews in Eygpt. However there was a servanthood type slavery found in the Nation of Israel which was not at all the type of slavery that haunts Americas history. The type of slavery found in the Nation of Israel was that of a man working off his debt, yet was released either when his debt was met or in the seventh year of jubilee, depending on which came first. The seventh year of jubilee was when all slavers were set free because all debts were forgiven.
However, there is something you are taking for granted that I would like to point out. You said the bible is a poor source for moral guidance. What outside ethical standard are you using in your judgment of the bible? And on what grounds does that universal code of conduct stand?
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 23, 2006 23:56:01 GMT -5
jobafunky, I see your arguement as a straw-man. "The bible promotes slavery etc." This is not true. The bible clearly condemned the forced slavery of the jews in Eygpt. The bible does both. But let's highlight the parts that support slavery. This one shows that god thinks that the anybody participating in the underground railroad should be put to death: And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. Ex.21:16 And it also gives instructions on what is an acceptable way to beat your slave to death: And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Ex.21:20-21 Maybe not exactly but this shows that if your 7 year rule only applies to a slave that is hebrew. And even then you might get to keep him. If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. Ex.21:2-6 Otherwise the bible says: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. Lev.25:44-46 I'm not claiming that these are by any means universal but more importantly they are relivant. I don't see why a moral code has to be universal, there's no way to predict what future "sins" will be possible. What does the bible say about virtual rape or unwanted energonic exchange? One can hardly expect a punch of primatives to anticipate these kind of ideas. And if somehow the bible was written by god and did include these things that were relivant to future sins what would people of the past make of it? Anyways enough digression, I just didn't want you to slip a faulty fact in.: The wiccan rede: Do what thou will and harm ye none. Bible fails all over the place on that one. Or how about the rules that we as a country can agree on. Bible fails on that one a lot too. Or the humanist code. Bible doesn't even come close. The moral code of the bible is based on the whim of a bloodthirsty(*), jealous (*), and angry(*) god. Who could say that raping frogs is good and it would be. That's hardly an absolute moral code. It's an on the whim of tempormental sky god and the whim of the preacher that says he can hear him moral code. Is that enough flesh on your straw man? edit * marks places where I can quote scripture to back up what I say...but Jesse shouldn't need me to do that.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 24, 2006 0:04:13 GMT -5
jobafunky,
Are you saying slavery is bad? Who says it's bad? What makes it bad? Is it universally bad or only relatively bad?
While I agree that it is bad, I don't see how you could say that it is.
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Post by jobafunky on Apr 24, 2006 0:24:41 GMT -5
jobafunky, Are you saying slavery is bad? Who says it's bad? What makes it bad? Is it universally bad or only relatively bad? While I agree that it is bad, I don't see how you could say that it is. Read my post to the end, I know it's hard with all the bible quotes, but if you can stay awake untill the end I list 3 sources. In the middle I show quite clearly that your source is very flawed and endorses slavery so I will agree that slavery is bad for slaves but, "I don't see how you could say that it is." Since your source, as I illustrated, supports slavery and condemns it. My wiccan reede clearly forbids it.
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Post by dmclayton on Apr 24, 2006 0:54:45 GMT -5
Jesse, the answer to this is simple. my morals are determined by the culture. i think that you would agree that the culture in which you live finds your religion harmful to itself, and her members. there is a difference between religion, christianity, and what you preach. i think this will make more sense if i used the word, "cult." your religion, dogma and theology is all cult-like in the christian sense of the word. the morals of this culture condemns cults, and we consider members of cults to be called, "extremists" and/or "terrorists." what are the original standards, or universal set, by which i define my morals? this culture, a member of first world western civilizations, and more specifically, america is a melting pot of ideas, politics and religions--and etc. morals from world religions have influenced american culture since 1776.
truth is relative, and the truth of a few is nothing more than an opinion. you and what a few wack jobs do and think is not the truth for all mankind. you do not need a degree of divinity of science to figure that out as it is all a matter of numbers. think realistically, if people like you--or even minutely similar to you, were actually in the majority you people would have totalitarian restraints over people who are like me. instead, the culture collective realizes the fallacy presented by you, others like you, and your religion in general that it is debated, and refused by people like me. common sense, really.
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