|
Post by atheistbibleburner on Apr 30, 2006 1:37:40 GMT -5
think of it as a circle, with morality and me linked together in both directions, never ending, always changing.
morluna, cant i be an atheist and still live a charitable, peaceful life?
And also, belief systems are created to EXPLAIN. see greek mythology; zeus's lightning bolts; creatons; etc.
|
|
lancejgoz
New Member
Be UR Self @ All Costs
Posts: 11
|
Post by lancejgoz on Apr 30, 2006 1:53:02 GMT -5
... If there was no God who created the Heavens and the earth, who created us in His image,... I have always wondered why it is that people can't accept the idea that maybe God was a creation of man to allow himself the ability to live life without absolute fear of Death. Really if one thinks about this it might make since even in the fact that not a single person has ever been to heaven, met God and/or Jesus and came back to earth to tell about it. So who knows what is in store for us in the end. Is it right for us to debate this issue of the existence of God? For me I think it is healthy to question, however to get into debates over if God exists or not is useless. I base my answer on the fact that aside from scripture which was written by man and none of it by God or Jesus themselves. The existence of God is unknowable. However, with that said, it is for every person on Earth to read, learn and decide what they believe in. Furthermore, if in the end the Christians were correct than I guess all of those who walked away from God will have to except their fate. However, if the Atheist or any numbers of other faiths are correct than the same acceptance of fate will be met by the Christians and any other faith that did not follow whatever the true faith was. Do I believe in God yes, do I agree with what the people of God have carried out in his name you bet I don’t? Pick any subject that is considered taboo or better yet morally wrong in the eyes of today’s Christian church and I am sure that in another 50 to 100 years the views will change and even biblical scripture will loose its meaning. Call me what you will. However, this is what I believe to be true, and if people ask me I'll tell them, but I will never try to get them to "sign on the dotted line" and I fear for most Christians that do because we have know way of knowing what is truly right or wrong only our God does and hopefully his message has been heard and we are following it. But it's not my place to lead anybody to the correct path in the fear that I may have chosen wrong and if I did... who ever followed me their lost souls will be on my "hands" Kind of like people say that John Smith lead the Mormons away from Christ, or John Wesley lead the Methodist away... what ever your thoughts are on this subject... can be right or wrong... it is to you to decide your own faith and fate. Not anybody else can make that choice for you. So whatever you do listen to the voice inside and hope and pray you have chosen wisely.
|
|
|
Post by blinkeredkitten on Apr 30, 2006 13:53:02 GMT -5
Why do I have faith?
Because when I was born the doctor said I wouldn't live through the night. My pastor prayed, and I now have children of my own.
Because when I was diagnosed with mono, the doctor told me my blood would test positive for 2 years. I was prayed for, and my blood was clean within 3 months.
Because when my son was born, he quit breathing and it took doctors 5 minutes to revive him. By all accounts he should have been brain damaged. There were 2 friends of mine from church in the delivery room with me who prayed. My son is 8 and the only medical issue he has is asthma.
Because I have seen so many healings, I have had so many prayers answered, I have seen too many things happen to be explained simply by "coincidence" - that's why I have faith.
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Apr 30, 2006 14:09:54 GMT -5
Bibleburner said:
Absolutely dear. Some of the nicest people I know are atheists. Theism does not dictate morality and human goodness. ^_^
This idea put forth by Jesse that non-Christians who believe in the essential morality of kindness towards others etc are simply borrowing from the Christian worldview is ludicrous. This is simply the basic human understanding that one should do unto others as they would have done unto them, and it appears in nearly every human philosophical way of thought, religion, and worldview. But his closed-minded way of seeing things only through Western Judeo-Christian eyes cannot understand this.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on Apr 30, 2006 15:49:09 GMT -5
There are plenty of atheists who are peaceful and charitable. However there is not a single atheist who has a reason for doing so which is not an arbitrary reason.
In the world of an atheist I see no reason for any personal behavior other then selfishness.
The metaphysical belief of an atheist, (that there is no Universal Law Giver) does not comport with their ethics. This is a contradiction which must not go unnoticed.
Only those who acknowledge that there is a Universal Law Giver can acknowledge that there is a universal morality, like rape and molestation being universally wrong.
|
|
lancejgoz
New Member
Be UR Self @ All Costs
Posts: 11
|
Post by lancejgoz on May 1, 2006 0:30:11 GMT -5
unfortunately rape and molestation is not considered universally wrong... if it was than it would not exist... just a personal observation on the subject.
|
|
|
Post by Miles Lewis on May 1, 2006 0:52:27 GMT -5
unfortunately rape and molestation is not considered universally wrong... if it was than it would not exist... just a personal observation on the subject. Apply that logic to anthing that is wrong... lots of evil exists, man is sinful. You are saying that there is no such thing as morality. Because people steal, that means that stealing is not universally wrong? Because people murder means that murder is not universally wrong? Because people are intolerant, then being intolerant is not universally wrong...? Lancejgoz, you are as bad as a buddhist. Just a personal observation on the subject.
|
|
|
Post by wanderingtrekker on May 1, 2006 1:23:13 GMT -5
Lancejgoz, you are as bad as a buddhist. Just a personal observation on the subject. Lance, from him, I'd take that as a compliment. Now, if he'd said something like "bad as a fundamentalist" you'd be justified in being offended. Actually Miles, the last time I took Amtrak, my seatmate was a Buddhist monk. We had a wonderful spiritual discussion and I left feeling happy to have broken bread, figuratively--or perhaps not so much so--with another human being. Something that I have only been able to do with the other hecklers on this site.
|
|
|
Post by hopefulheart on May 1, 2006 1:34:30 GMT -5
awww, Miles, bad-mouthing Buddhists? Now that's not nice. Kinda shows your ignorance, though. Buddhism and Christianity can co-exist... even by your view of Christianity.
Funny, in the world of someone who does it because of their religion, I see no reason for any personal behavior other than selfishness. I believe what my daddy taught me - you don't need a reason to do good things. And to me, if you have to have a reason, well then you're doing the right thing for the wrong reason. What a shame. More often sinful than not, too.
Oh, and for the record, Jesse dear, that does mean that I don't look to a Universal Law Giver. Again, I don't do things because someone told me to, I do things that stem from my heart, the heart God gave me to work with. What a miracle life is ^_^
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on May 1, 2006 7:43:45 GMT -5
*nods at Trekker and Hopeful* I love you guys... *hugs*
I agree with what Hopeful said... if you only do it because God told you he'd blast your brains out if you don't, then you're doing it for a selfish reason. I follow a moral code because it is a healthy way to live for me and for the people around me, not because I want a prize at the end of my life. That's a horrible reason to follow morals.
Lance, I would argue that just because people do things like rape and murder that doesn't make them okay. It doesn't make them moral. My version of morality is the avoidance of any activity, word or (as much as possible) thought that would bring harm to oneself or to another human being. Obviously, rape and murder do bring harm. So I would say that they are immoral... but I guess you could say that others might think differently... however I think civil rights dictates that we must draw the line there and protect the rights of would be victims to live their lives in peace, rather than the rights of the offenders to uphold their own twisted set of morals. Just the same, I think the OAO crew can stand on street corners and preach all they want, that's their right. I also have the right to stand and speak out against them. We are both upholding our rights of free speech and neither of us should be silenced. However, if they were to come down from their speaking places and start beating all the gays and lesbians in the crowd with baseball bats... that is over the line and they must be stopped. When they're just speaking, they might make people angry, but they aren't really doing anything that warrants immorality. If people don't like what they're saying, they can leave, or listen to me (the heckler) by their side instead (heehee), but the act of inflicting actual harm on another steps over the line into immorality. NOTE: OAO does not beat people with baseball bats. It was just an illustration. xD
|
|
lancejgoz
New Member
Be UR Self @ All Costs
Posts: 11
|
Post by lancejgoz on May 1, 2006 19:21:15 GMT -5
Bad as a Buddhist... hum... guess it could be worse you could have said Bad as Christian on a "Bad Day" you know the type that allow them self to placed in a corner due to faulty logic or maybe it's not really faulty just the individual inferred way to much into it... Did you know faith stems from fate. We all have a fate and in the Christian view point we all have free-will so why is it that some "not all" Christians like to ignore the fact that the message should be spread not "crammed down the throats of the masses". I personally think if Jesus were alive to do he would be considered a raging Liberal. He would tell you the truth and if you argued he would listen but not argue back for he would understand that he had already said what he had to say and that his job was done. To many times soap-box preachers tend to preach & preach until somebody is saved... However, the cool thing about being saved is the timing can't be controlled to the point that it of happen on cue for whenever the preacher feels it should... Which would explain why Assembly of God and some Southern Baptist churches plus many others that fall under the Pentecostal movement have long drawn out services.
I have faith in my choices that they are correct And if I am not I also must be willing to except my fate.. As will every person on earth. Regardless of any particular faith. So I find it interesting that the question of "Why do you have faith?" has ended up being I have faith because... and then when somebody says something different from the norm that individual is called a "Bad Buddhist"
All I can say is how mature are we really... I guess in the end we will find out... And in the end people we thought were going to Heaven may not be there and visa versa.
|
|
|
Post by dmclayton on May 2, 2006 13:16:47 GMT -5
jesse said, "In the world of an atheist I see no reason for any personal behavior other then selfishness."
christian faith is not selfishness? your behavior is dictated by your fear of death, hell, loneliness, emptiness, etc. and since you do not desire these things for yourself you act in a christian manner. your desire for heaven is selfish, and not a righteous attempt to please god. jesse, all anyone has to do is look at your xanga (www.xanga.com/lazarus1719) to figure out that everything you do is the work of your ego.
|
|
|
Post by dmclayton on May 2, 2006 13:26:31 GMT -5
also, to sort of add-on to what lance is saying...
humanity has the free will to accept or reject christ. a majority of us have decided our fates, regardless of your bitter screaming for us all to turn to jesus. honestly, i want the 'free will' to go to hell. the christian community has one duty when it comes to the great commission, and that is to spread the gospel to a world that does not know christ. everyone, in america, has heard the name of christ and we have all made our decision. this is where christian churches come into play. people who are interested in converting will come to a church of their own......guess what, a key word, 'free will'...otherwise all other conversions are a facade of emotion.
people like jesse try to convert people by making them feel guilty about living, period. everything they do is wrong, and everything jesse does is right. follow jesse, amen. unfortunately, and even i know this, that is not how christianity was supposed to interact with society.
jesus will knock. right? some will open, and some will slam it in his face...like me--and i enjoyed it. fine and dandy.
...but when people like jesse 9and there are a lot of them) start forcing it on you at every street corner...it no longer becomes a choice. people under the influence of alcohol cannot make a clear decision, therefore their free will has been altered to jesse's benefit.
jesse also passes out money for people to stop and listen to him. ask him yourself. this is not the free will of the people, nor is it the free will that god intended for people to have.
'acquire the fire' is not free will as hundreds of people go to the front because their friends are going up front. it is one big emotion fest. surely, your emotions have nothing to do with your spirituality...if it does, it is not real.
so, yeah...i better stop here since this is really off topic, but its worth addressing..perhaps i will start a new thread on the meaning of free will.
|
|
|
Post by elwing96 on May 2, 2006 13:36:29 GMT -5
In the world of an atheist I see no reason for any personal behavior other then selfishness. Would you, or any other Christian on the board, be Christian if it were not for the promise of heaven? If the answer is "no" then you are being selfish. Please actually think about that question. It's something I've wondered about on my own ever since a speaker asked that question (I wanna say it was John Piper, but I can't remember). I think it's a question every Christian must ask themselves.
|
|
|
Post by wanderingtrekker on May 2, 2006 13:44:56 GMT -5
In the world of an atheist I see no reason for any personal behavior other then selfishness. Would you, or any other Christian on the board, be Christian if it were not for the promise of heaven? If the answer is "no" then you are being selfish. Also, if not for fear of hell.
|
|
|
Post by rsmportland on May 2, 2006 15:15:37 GMT -5
What is faith? Why do you believe so strongly without any real proof of god? Why do you blindly believe? I want every good reason you have about why i shouldnt say f**k you to jesus. I do understand it is too late to turn back, because of the one unforgivable sin; it is unforgivable to doubt the holy spirit (from some verse in luke). But, in any case, tell me why i shouldnt have doubted. Tell me why i shouldnt have thought. Christianity IS NOT blind faith. Look at the evidence, creation, the conscience, the bible. I'm a Christian because Christianity stand head and shoulders above any other faith. I submit my life to Christ because he deserves to be worshiped. Oh, and your understanding of the unforgivable sin is wrong. It means if you die without submitting yourself to Christ, you will not be forgiven. Man, Jesus will change your heart, once you humble yourself, repent and believe, the change will be astounding. I pray for guys like you everday.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse Morrell on May 2, 2006 18:17:15 GMT -5
You are right. If someone is a Christian simply to go to Heaven, they are living selfish and will never go to Heaven. And if someone is a Christian simply to escape hell, they are playing games with God. We are to do what is righteous because it is right. We are to worship God because He is worthy. No other reasons at all fit into the equation. I would serve God all the days of my life even if it meant I'd go to hell at the end of my life simply because He is worthy to be loved and obeyed. I'd recommend you, even though you are unsaved sinners, listen to a sermon called "Ten Shekel Shirt" which is about serving God even if you go to hell at the end of your life. It's a message that starts off slow but it soon picks up. Here is a link: www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282So you are saying that the final authority on morality is your heart. But what if someones heart says, "beating up black people with baseball bats is not bad"? How can you say that what they are doing is "wrong"? You would be forced to say that what they are doing is something you personally do not like or personally do not agree with, but you cannot say that it is universally wrong. I'd say that you are being partly selfish if you do it simply because it is healthy for you to do so. You ought to keep God's commandments (which is morality) for the sake of others and for the glory of God. But what moral code do you follow anyways? Where does it come from? Who gave it any authority? How do you know that it is a good moral code? That's right. God only expects us to believe the believable. He does not expect us to believe the unbelievable.
|
|
|
Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 17:08:14 GMT -5
[/quote]I pray for guys like you everday.[/quote]
haha. i pray everyday for christians like you. i say to the walls, "god, please save me from your followers."
|
|
|
Post by atheistbibleburner on May 10, 2006 18:29:00 GMT -5
And where has that gotten you? Don't you have a more useful place to direct your prayers? Can you throw your prayers in the general direction of ethiopia?
You can't just act like a charitable christian; you must be a charitable christian. Otherwise, everything you say or do is quite discreditable.
|
|
|
Post by HSTN2983 on May 10, 2006 21:10:11 GMT -5
what is ethiopia and why should i care? haha. sarcasm, folks...
|
|
pacp
Full Member
Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
|
Post by pacp on May 16, 2006 18:54:14 GMT -5
What is faith? Why do you believe so strongly without any real proof of god? Why do you blindly believe? I want every good reason you have about why i shouldnt say f**k you to jesus. I do understand it is too late to turn back, because of the one unforgivable sin; it is unforgivable to doubt the holy spirit (from some verse in luke). But, in any case, tell me why i shouldnt have doubted. Tell me why i shouldnt have thought. Well not really. Thats not the unforgivable sin. We all doubted at one time or another. If you are under conviction about this "sin" then praise god you haven't committed it. So the holy spirit is still speaking to you. Faith in action is dependence. 1) You must believe the Claims of Jesus..that he was God in the flesh and that he died to cover your sins and that he rose from the dead.2) repent..to turn from sin...to reckon in your mind that what the Bible says about you is true. That you are that bad..as we all are. That you have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 3) Depend to place your trust in Christ and Him alone for salvation. Your sitting on a chair..well just place your full dependence on Christ for salvation like you are the chair and you will be saved. Pray talk to God..he is listing...and if you understand, repent and depend....you will be saved. Behold old things are cast away all things have become new. We believe because thats the 'miracle" to trust. We have that in our hearts....God will not cast you out. Whosoever believes. aka..understands, repents, depends...in the name of the Lord...(that what he said it true)..will be saved. I'll pray for you.
|
|
|
Post by atheistbibleburner on May 17, 2006 20:13:56 GMT -5
Well, I prayed to your god today. This is how the conversation went.
"Hello god? 'Sup? Yeaaaaah.... So. Whatsup with you? How's the kid, how old's he now, like 2000? Yea thats cool, thats cool.... Look god, I'm tired of you giving me the cold shoulder. I just can't speak to you like I can to my lord and savior, the FSM.
So god, I'd like to say a few things. beep you. And um... beep. You that is. beep your holy wars. beep off. And if you do exist(and the FSM doesnt), Ill fuckin go to hell, and I swear, I'll raise an army to march against your gates. Consider yourself warned, god. If I'm wrong, then in less than a 100 years, I'll begin raising an army in Hell.
You have been warned. Yes, I'm doing the warning now, not you. I'm telling you what to beep do. And I hope you hear every beep word I say.
In FSM I vow,
RAmen."
|
|
pacp
Full Member
Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
|
Post by pacp on May 17, 2006 21:02:57 GMT -5
Well, I prayed to your god today. This is how the conversation went. "Hello god? 'Sup? Yeaaaaah.... So. Whatsup with you? How's the kid, how old's he now, like 2000? Yea thats cool, thats cool.... Look god, I'm tired of you giving me the cold shoulder. I just can't speak to you like I can to my lord and savior, the FSM. So god, I'd like to say a few things. f**k you. And um... f**k. You that is. f**k your holy wars. f**k off. And if you do exist(and the FSM doesnt), Ill f**kin go to hell, and I swear, I'll raise an army to march against your gates. Consider yourself warned, god. If I'm wrong, then in less than a 100 years, I'll begin raising an army in Hell. You have been warned. Yes, I'm doing the warning now, not you. I'm telling you what to f**king do. And I hope you hear every f**king word I say. In FSM I vow, RAmen." Soooo what was your childhood like??
|
|
|
Post by atheistbibleburner on May 17, 2006 23:04:24 GMT -5
I went to a christian private school. I thought too much. Asked questions (i.e. how the hell did noah get that many animals on a boat), and all in all, realized that christianity is a crock of nuts.
|
|
|
Post by valentine on May 18, 2006 8:05:50 GMT -5
I went to a christian private school. I thought too much. Asked questions (i.e. how the hell did noah get that many animals on a boat), and all in all, realized that christianity is a crock of nuts. ::laugh:: Pretty much how my life went, except I would have phrased it slightly more politely, of course.
|
|
pacp
Full Member
Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
|
Post by pacp on May 18, 2006 9:11:13 GMT -5
I went to a christian private school. I thought too much. Asked questions (i.e. how the hell did noah get that many animals on a boat), and all in all, realized that christianity is a crock of nuts. Catholic??
|
|
|
Post by atheistbibleburner on May 18, 2006 19:17:26 GMT -5
Nope, baptist.
|
|
pacp
Full Member
Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Posts: 146
|
Post by pacp on May 18, 2006 19:34:36 GMT -5
I went to a christian private school. I thought too much. Asked questions (i.e. how the hell did noah get that many animals on a boat), and all in all, realized that christianity is a crock of nuts. ::laugh:: Pretty much how my life went, except I would have phrased it slightly more politely, of course. You didn't eat paint chips as a child, not abused in any way or neglected. Is it pent up anger your repressing, or are you just in touch with your feelings.
|
|
|
Post by atheistbibleburner on May 18, 2006 23:29:14 GMT -5
Why do you assume I, or valentine, am/are angry?
Personally, I'm the happiest person you'll ever meet. I'm always smiling, as a matter of fact.
|
|
|
Post by wanderingtrekker on May 18, 2006 23:32:50 GMT -5
::laugh:: Pretty much how my life went, except I would have phrased it slightly more politely, of course. You didn't eat paint chips as a child, not abused in any way or neglected. Is it pent up anger your repressing, or are you just in touch with your feelings. You know Pacp, it seems to me that you have quite a few issues with your own anger. The vehemence with which you attack communists, gays, women, John Lennon, et al seems to indicate that there is something irking you, which you respond to by lashing out at others. Of course I doubt that you will accept this explanation publically, although you might indeed mull it over inside, because you will tell me that it is all in Christian love that gays should be arrested and women stopped from teaching.
|
|