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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 2, 2006 21:56:57 GMT -5
Micah started this thread elsewhere, and I moved it here. Enjoy! There is some poverty in the inner cities of America I suppose. However, I think the welfare system as it is now is a sham. I see all these inner city kids whose parents do not work running around with cell phones, spending at least $5 a day on junk food, driving new cars, kids out of school for days to get their hair and nails done on a regular basis. What is the motivation to work hard in school to get out of this so called "poverty"? I know there are some people who really do need help, but the above scenario is too often the case. Parents get these "crazy checks" (if you really live in the ghetto you will know what I am talking about) from the government for cranking out all these babies. What are your thoughts on this? Yes I believe guilty murderers should be put to death. It is justice to society and justice to the victims. Lawbreakers will never be in favor of strict penalties for breaking the law. Abortion and anti war advocates are in favor of killing innocent people (babies) and letting guilty people live (terrorists, murderers, rapists, child molesters). The government has a responsibility to protect its citizens the same way a father has a responsibility to protect his family, or a husband has a responsibility to protect his wife. This could mean war. This does not necessarily mean that all war is ok or that all war is moral. My main point is that it is a biblical principle that the government is to protect its citizens by rewarding the just and punishing the guilty. (See Romans 13, 1 Peter 2:13-14). Punishing the guilty sometimes means putting to death the criminal or going to war with a nation that threatens innocent civilians. Do you think a guy in the KKK who has lynched 15 innocent victims should be put to death? Should Hitler have been put to death? God allowed His own Son to be put to death to pay for the crimes of other people. This shows you right there that the God of the Bible Himself is in favor of the death penalty. I am not sure about textbooks in the inner city showing Lyndon Johnson as the current president, but if this is true that is an injustice for sure. I work in the inner city myself and have never seen anything like that.
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 2:42:03 GMT -5
Micah started this thread elsewhere, and I moved it here. Enjoy! God allowed His own Son to be put to death to pay for the crimes of other people. This shows you right there that the God of the Bible Himself is in favor of the death penalty. hahahahahahahahaha. wow. oi. god is just all right. he punished an innocent person, and therefore is in favor of the death penalty. this is WHY people like me want o abolish the death penalty, because often times people are innocent. what an incredible concept micah. this reminds me of his 'just' actions against people that have done nothing wrong. he commanded his peoples to dash infants to pieces (and even rip open the bellies of pregnant women [abortion], rape women, loot cities...all in the name of god. yeah, that makes sense.
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Post by Morluna on May 3, 2006 6:08:06 GMT -5
!!!!
Do you remember the exact verse for this? I was talking to Thumper about it the other day and he called me a liar when I said it was in the Bible, because I couldn't remember the exact passage.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 3, 2006 10:28:59 GMT -5
Ok, so let's just say for arguement's sake that God does endorse capital punishment.
Micah wrote:
So what is the goal of the "corrections system?" If the goal is to get revenge on people, then I can understand the death penalty. If the goal is actually to protect people from future crimes, life imprisonment accomplishes that too. If the goal is to reduce crime, there is a strong case against the death penalty.
Furthermore, the best way to prevent crime is to do just that, prevent it.
"Everytime you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog its own tail. It won't fattem the dog." --Mark Twain
"It's easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." --Frederick Douglas
"More money is put into prisons than into schools. That, in itself, is the description of a nation bent on suicide." --Jonathan Kozol [describing America]
Does the death penalty deter crime? No. The homocide rate is at least five times greater in the United States than in any European Country, none of which authorizes the death penalty.
The Southern states carry out over 80 percent of the executions but have a higher ,irder rate than any other region.
Texas has by far the most executions, but its homicide rate is twice that of Wisconsin, the first state to abolish the death penalty.
Perhaps these differences are based on geography or ethnicity though? Nope.
The number of capital crimes is higher, respectively, in South Dakota, Connecticut, and Virginia (all with the death penalty) than in the adjacent states of North Dakota, Massachucetts, and West Virginia (without the death penalty).
Besides which, the death penalty is extremely inequitible.
Since 1976, when the death penalty was reinstated, 76 percent of those sentenced to death (including federal courts) have been members of minority groups.
Of the 99 murderers executed in 1999 for 127 homicides, 104 victims were white.
[The above figures were taken from Jimmy Carter's new book, "Our Endangered Values"]
If God said that "thou shalt not kill," then how is it ok for us to kill in retribution?
God supports the death penalty?
God permitted the first murderer, Cain, to live. God even threatened to enact a sevenfold vengance on anyone who harmed him.
And check out Ezekiel 33:11: "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, of house of Israel?"
And even though the Bible does advocate an "eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth," that Moses prohibits the taking of all of an offenders teeth or both eyes in retributioin.
Good Friday in 1999 marked the release of a statement by America's Catholic bishops, and even if you dismiss the Catholic Church, these words make valid points:
Justice: n 1: the quality of being just or fair 2: the administration of law; the act of determining rights and assigning rewards or punishments; "justice deferred is justice denied" (WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University)
Justice is rendering to every one that which is his due. It has been distinguished from equity in this respect, that while justice means merely the doing what positive law demands, equity means the doing of what is fair and right in every separate case. (Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary)
How is the death penalty just, especially if it does not prevent or deter crime. It seems that it's only purpose is revenge, and that is not a cause that Jesus would have supported. "Love your enemy, turn the other cheek."
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 16:02:10 GMT -5
morluna, i thought you would never ask. i keep 'sneaking' it into conversations, but no one's asked me about it. actually, there are about twenty-five verses or more that allude to it:
unfortunately, as i was typing this, i misplaced the xanga i had containing all these vreses and more. i thought i archived it, but i must have deleted it by accident. this was months ago when i did a research project for my religious studies class. anyway, i do have the one in which i mentioned, so i will try to look for others, because now i am stark raving mad! heh.
hosea 13:16 the people of samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their god. they will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
there are other ridiculous things too. looting, rape, and even the death of forty or so children because they were poking fun at a prophet. i only mention this because its so terrible its almost funny, because this is how pathetic god is...
2nd kings 2:22-24 ...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.
i want ANY rational christian to explain this away. oi.
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Post by messengermicah on May 7, 2006 16:40:33 GMT -5
Dusty and wanderintrekker,
In the scripture above in Hosea, God is telling people what is going to happen to them as a result of their disobedience. Of course this was not what God wanted for them, but He warned them and warned them, and they refused to repent.
Yes due to sin bad things happen to innocent people sometimes.
I do not see what is so unrational about that. It sounds unrational when you compare it to the loose standards of our society. God takes His law seriously.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 talks about if children are rebellious, drunkards, gluttons, lazy, and disobedient to parents then discipline them and if they still do not listen and straighten up then take them out to the city and stone them.
We have thousands of such children in our nation today. Where are they going to end up? In prison? Being a liability rather than an asset to society. Being criminals.
Those of you who insist that the death penalty does not deter crime, I can guarantee you that if we implemented this in the United States we would not have so many of these rebellious children in our society.
Sure, with the way our justice system operates sometimes people do not take it seriously. Why should Tookie Williams play with the system for 24 years after admitting to murdering people in cold blood? It is pretty easy to beat our system.
Then again, can a society that legalizes the murder of innocent children (abortion) make just judgments on whether or not someone else should live or die? Maybe not.
There are many scriptures that show God's favor of the death penalty. Two are Genesis 9:6, and Exodus 21:12. There were many crimes that people should be put to death for under God's law: adultery, murder, incest, homosexuality, bestiality.
It is just a wrong misunderstanding of law and justice that would make these scriptures seem unreasonable.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 7, 2006 17:15:27 GMT -5
hmm. i disagree. micah, you are examining this strictly from a biblical point fo view--which is understandable--but try to conceive it from an average person's point of view. you see it as judgment against sin, and that it is justified if innocent people get thrown in the mix, because your god is never wrong. fine, i get that. i understand how fundies think... however, these people were never christians, and the jews invaded their land and did as their god commanded of them. they were not sinful, because they were not exposed to the god of judea. they were living by their own standards.
this is exactly what germany did, as we have brought up in so many conversations that it is ridiculous. germany believed that absolute, moral truth was on their side and that god was on their side. they attacked, and we attacked back, on different principles--although they involved the same god. however, each side believed the other to have a perverted understanding of scripture or morality.
so, just imagine for a second that some alien (i mean foreign, not ufo's) people come into america, slaughter you, your loved ones, and commit any heinous crime you can think of, and then praise their sun god...or whatever...afterwards for leading them to victory against the sinful, evil american christians.
your truth is valuable, micah, but i am sorry to say that it is only valuable to you and other believers. i wish it were otherwise, sometimes, because it would make things less complicated in the world. oh well...you gotta take what you get, and what i take from the bible is wrongful murder of foreign people by the jews on the basis that they were different than them.
this is how we, and other world religions, see it. regardless of whether we are right or wrong, or you are right or wrong, it happened... and we see it as murder..and we still see fundamentalism as a threat against freedom, and everything we stand for...sorry.
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Post by messengermicah on May 7, 2006 21:59:32 GMT -5
You may have had a point if the Samaritans were not exposed to the God of Israel (not really though because they still had the witness of God through conscience and creation), but they were. Samaria was right in the heart of Israel during the time of the divided kingdom.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 8, 2006 3:09:51 GMT -5
linguistics usually prevents the 'exposure' you speak of, but conscience and creation is not an excuse for imperialism in the name of a god, a god who is native only to jewish culture.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 8, 2006 20:48:07 GMT -5
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 talks about if children are rebellious, drunkards, gluttons, lazy, and disobedient to parents then discipline them and if they still do not listen and straighten up then take them out to the city and stone them. We have thousands of such children in our nation today. Where are they going to end up? In prison? Being a liability rather than an asset to society. Being criminals. Those of you who insist that the death penalty does not deter crime, I can guarantee you that if we implemented this in the United States we would not have so many of these rebellious children in our society. Have you ever dealt with Kudzu? For those of you on the boards that aren't from this lovely tropical climate zone we call the South, Kudzu is a vine which will eat small cars and houses, and I am not being facetious. I really am not. It can grow up to 3 feet a day. If you attack Kudzu with a lawn mower on Monday, you'll have to do it again by Friday. The only way to get rid of Kudzu is by using nuclear weapons on the southern states. Not really. You can attempt to stop it by digging out its roots, but the problem is that the root system can be more extensive than the above ground vines. More often than not, you only manage it by cutting it back before the surface vines can put down roots, which means cutting it back at least weekly, otherwise you'll lose land to it. The only sure way of stopping it is literally "nipping it in the bud." Crime is the same way. The object of our current system is primarily to punish people who commit crimes. A secondary goal can be to rehabilitate them, although it is questionable as to how effective that is. If we want to be sucessful, we must address crimes before they occur. The best way of doing this is to create an atmosphere in our cities that is something other than that of abandonment, segregation, violence, and desperation. As the quotes I used above indicate, the easiest way to reduce the number of jail cells (because there are less crimes) is to build more schools. Well, yes, I suppose if we killed everyone with a rebelious streak, we would have fewer rebelious children. We could just abort them before they have a chance to spend their parent's money on a walkman without permission too. I dare say that if we'd implemented this system, dear Jesse and Thumper wouldn't be with us. I believe I've heard them say that they were converted in prison. Perhaps we should inquire of their opinion of the corrections system. One of the arguements as to why the death penalty is not an effective deterrent, is becuase capital crimes are mostly crimes of passion, that is, that people don't think about consequnces when they are committing the crime.
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Post by messengermicah on May 8, 2006 23:37:15 GMT -5
We have more schools now than we did 50 years ago (and I am pretty sure the percentage of schools to people is much higher now than ever) yet the crime keeps increasing.
It is sort of like people saying they need to live together before they get married so they will know if they can get along. The more people do this the higher the divorce rate goes.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 9, 2006 8:01:48 GMT -5
i agree with you, trekker. great reply. kudzu is a pain in the kazoo. haha. fortunately, its not crept into texas, as far as i know, but since ive been here in alabama..there has been talk of a solution: importing a beetle that would eat the kudzu at a quicker rate than it grows, and it only feeds on kudzu. unfortunately, like all things, if the kudzu becomes scarce or disappears, then we have a new problem on our hands as beetles. to survive, they will adapt, and then we must import birds who eat the beetles..
this is a good example of the slippery slope. sometimes, this philosophical debate is used as a moral sanction against immorality, but it can also be used against 'moral' extremism. the more christian laws implemented into our society would 'slope' into a theocracy...
yeah, so anyways, excellent post.
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Post by messengermicah on May 9, 2006 14:30:24 GMT -5
Do you think America was ever a theocracy?
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 9, 2006 15:44:17 GMT -5
Schools are more than buildings. We are the least educated of any developed nation. You don't see this as a problem?
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Post by messengermicah on May 9, 2006 16:19:58 GMT -5
Of course I think it is a problem. I am a public school teacher. I see kids with more books, computers, supplies, teachers, resources, etc. poured into them all the time. the more they are poured into the more they take it for granted. The more resources and money that is poured into education the less educated we become. Why work hard when you can rely on the government? I hear it all the time.
The problem is not with education (although it has its problems). It is sin. It is immorality. You know the problems. Drug infested neighborhoods (immorality), no fathers at home (immorality), shootings (immorality), ganster rap music (immorality), illegimate children (immorality).
Yes, maybe education is part of the problem I will give you that. Certainly not the kind of education we have been giving them or not even the kind we want to give them.
This is the kind of education they need: The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom (Proverbs 1:7, 9:10).
Jesus is the answer to immorality or sin because He is the Savior from sin.
Whenever God's people turned away from sin and turned towards Him in obedience to His laws they were blessed financially. When they turned away they were cursed.
Keep teaching children that their is no judgment, no consequences for what you do in this life, no rewards, that we came from animals, etc.
The emphasis becomes self gratification or selfishness. To love and serve God with the whole heart, soul, mind, and strength is to seek the highest good. That is the answer. Not only to the problems in the inner city but to all over the America.
I will ask you again. Do you think America was ever a theocracy?
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 10, 2006 21:18:15 GMT -5
i am looking at a nation on the slippery slope to theocracy. regardless of what you say about sin...
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Post by Morluna on May 13, 2006 2:34:05 GMT -5
morluna, i thought you would never ask. i keep 'sneaking' it into conversations, but no one's asked me about it. actually, there are about twenty-five verses or more that allude to it: unfortunately, as i was typing this, i misplaced the xanga i had containing all these vreses and more. i thought i archived it, but i must have deleted it by accident. this was months ago when i did a research project for my religious studies class. anyway, i do have the one in which i mentioned, so i will try to look for others, because now i am stark raving mad! heh. hosea 13:16 the people of samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their god. they will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. there are other ridiculous things too. looting, rape, and even the death of forty or so children because they were poking fun at a prophet. i only mention this because its so terrible its almost funny, because this is how pathetic god is... 2nd kings 2:22-24 ...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. i want ANY rational christian to explain this away. oi. Wooooow... that's a doozy... thanks for the verses. Thumper: See? SEE?! Micah said: "Do you think America was ever a theocracy?" Hahah, considering half the founding fathers were deists... that's a big Hell no... xD
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 16, 2006 11:16:53 GMT -5
Micah, if you were asking me if America was ever a theocracy, I would say no. If you asked me if we were moving closer every day to a theocracy, I would say maybe. If you were to ask me if I thought that the president would make this country a theocracy given the chance, I would say yes. But I would also say that as with all theocracies, the one that Bush would lead would be a theocracy devoted to worshipping him and his power, not any diety's.
Do you think America is a theocracy, Micah?
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 20, 2006 6:42:52 GMT -5
theocracy is becoming a word that is held in the 'eye of the beholder.' the word has negative connotations when applied to christianity from outsiders, but christians use it to mean "true, fair, equal government."
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 23, 2006 0:39:42 GMT -5
Micah, if you were asking me if America was ever a theocracy, I would say no. If you asked me if we were moving closer every day to a theocracy, I would say maybe. If you were to ask me if I thought that the president would make this country a theocracy given the chance, I would say yes. But I would also say that as with all theocracies, the one that Bush would lead would be a theocracy devoted to worshipping him and his power, not any diety's. Do you think America is a theocracy, Micah? Well do you?
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Post by messengermicah on May 23, 2006 1:19:01 GMT -5
What is this wanderingtrekker? You can take weeks to respond to one of my posts but now demand I respond to yours in a matter of hours? Take it easy. We fundies are a little slow. I don't think America is a theocracy but who knows with the homosexuals all dying so young with aids and all the feminists killing all the babies, we fundamentalists may be the only ones left and just take over this country.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on May 23, 2006 1:57:42 GMT -5
What is this wanderingtrekker? You can take weeks to respond to one of my posts but now demand I respond to yours in a matter of hours? Take it easy. We fundies are a little slow. Ummm...Actually, Micah, I work, so I have been gone from the boards for a while. I am growing tired of the repetition, so I may not be around much longer. Would you do me a favor though? Look at the time stamp on my question: "16 May, 2006, 12:16pm, wanderingtrekker wrote:" Today is the 23rd. Thank you for responding, but it's hardly a matter of hours.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 23, 2006 2:06:42 GMT -5
haha. and wow, micah, i knew some of you were intolerant...but to say that all the homosexuals will die out young...and all this other trash, wow....beyond the pale.
...did you know heterosexuals contract aids as much, if not more, than homosexuals?
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Post by messengermicah on May 23, 2006 10:07:39 GMT -5
Well, of course if 2-3% of the population is homosexual and the other 97-98% is heterosexual there are going to be more heterosexuals with AIDS. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Look at the % of homosexuals that gets AIDS compared to heterosexuals and look at the average life span of homosexuals.
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Post by messengermicah on May 23, 2006 10:11:33 GMT -5
wanderingtrekker,
I apologize, my mistake. I was joking with you anyway.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 25, 2006 8:44:55 GMT -5
do numbers even matter? you want them 'saved' yet you ridicule them, sorry pal, you're not worthy enough to live with beliefs like you have..and dont counter with "im not...but by the grace of god"
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Post by messengermicah on May 25, 2006 13:24:36 GMT -5
Nice copout Dusty. So you see my point.
Yes I ridicule homosex because it is a ridiculous perversion. It deserves about as much credit as pedophilia or bestiality. Stop defending it to try to appear politically correct and tolerant.
You won't get those "I'm not but by the grace of God" counters out of me.
Anyone who defends the sin of homosex is not a Christian and is an accomplice to a crime against God.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 26, 2006 1:28:26 GMT -5
micah, it is not a copout..i was angry at the time i read your thread and now i am not. i try not to speak when i am angry, although it has happened. often.
you speak of crime against god, but people have the freedom to make their own choices in life. deal with it, live your christian life, and die. this is all there is to do in life.
why must you inflict pain on others to serve out your own selfish "god's will?"
do you know that people hurt by what you, and other christians, say about them? you say all this junk about not candy-coating the truth, but who are you to own the truth?
i believe in the freedom of choice, and i will firmly stand by it. i will accept the consequences for my actions and inactions. i do not decide what is right and wrong for everyone else, because i am not 'everyone else.'
there is no science involved in this. there is no pseudo-intelligent solution to this problem. this is common sense. let people live their own lives...if not, then don't we have the same right to prevent you from living a free life?
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Post by messengermicah on May 26, 2006 14:29:26 GMT -5
Dusty,
I am glad to hear you were just mad. That post did seem to lack the thought you often put into your posts. I still think you sort of copped out though. Now above you are changing the subject.
Of course people have the freedom to make choices. God made them that way and gave them that choice. However, that doesn't mean we should not try to stop people from making wrong choices.
Are you saying we should not try to convince the KKK to stop being racist?
Should we have just left Adolph Hitler alone to kill the Jews?
We don't want homosexuals to go to hell. We don't want homosexuals to sin against God. We don't want our families growing up in a country that accepts a perverse mindset treating homosex as if it is normal.
Ever been to a homosexual pride parade, Dusty? Most of them allow NAMBLA to march in the parade. I have seen homosexual men wearing t-shirts that say "I love soccer mom's sons".
Is that acceptable? Should we not try to change their minds? Should our country allow perversion such as that?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 26, 2006 21:26:11 GMT -5
Deuteronomy chapter 28 mentions all of the curses on a nation that turns it's back on God.
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