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Post by HSTN2983 on May 4, 2006 16:53:51 GMT -5
jesse, i read, to some extent, something you wrote on presuppositional apologetics. however, instead of posting this there for us to discuss i thought it would be more interesting as a public topic in the world-view forum. this will give me, and others, a better understanding of what you are doing. i copy/pasted some references to books you listed at the end with the intent on reading them soon. please explain this doctrine to me so that i may better understand it. i am not familiar with it, although i am not sure if it is something that was recently devised as a tool to defend christianity in the modern era, or if it is something i've not come across in my study of christianity. thanks. dmclayton
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 4, 2006 17:23:16 GMT -5
"Presuppositional Apologetics" is what I find to be the biblical approach, however within Church history you will find that the apologetical approach that has been used has been the "Classical Apologetic" approach which deals strictly with the point by point "facts". Great men like Josh McDowell and Norman Geisler are "Classical Apologists".
The problem with classical apologetics is that it recognizes and submits to the "final authority" of the unbelievers, being his reason or logic, as opposed to the final authority being the Word of God revealed in scripture.
Classical Apologetics has to hold to the fallacy of neutrality, a common point of contact for the believer and unbeliever, a neutral ground for both to stand upon and then unbiasly examine all the evidence.
However one of the many problem with classical apologetics is that everyone interprets the "facts" by whatever their presupposition is. Everyone has a presupposition whether it be empiricism or autonomous rationalism or arbitrary pragmatism. So in the classical apologetical debate format, what you end up having is an unbeliever and a believer debating over their interpretations of the facts. And there interpretations are based on their presupposition of whether or not, "In the beginning God".
Since the real conflict between the believer and the unbeliever are two entirely seperate world-views, two entirely different network of presuppositions, the data is not the real issue or a hinderance to the faith, rather the presuppositions which are faulty are.
So the Christian faith must be defended on the presuppositional level.
The Christian world-view is examined as a whole and the unbelieving world-view is examined as a whole. It is not a point by point, peice meal approach. By stepping into the shoes of the unbeliever the apologist shows the inconsistencies as well as the impossibilities and likewise the unbeliever is to step into the shoes of the believer and look through the Christian worldview to see how it and it alone is the only worldview that can be true.
Hence as I've said before, the Christian worldview is proved by the impossibility of the contrary.
I hope that helps to explain it. I am not the best at explaining it as I am still a student of it myself.
Cornelius Van Til is considered the modern pioneer of the concept, while Greg Bahnsen has really taken it and refined it to more of a methodical approach.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 4, 2006 17:29:29 GMT -5
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 4, 2006 17:40:42 GMT -5
haha. great. i like your response time. i will read over this and your other articles, dive into some web definitions and then move on to the books you recommended. i may not find them in a library so i'll probably just buy them. surprisingly, my library is mostly christian theology. go figure, eh jesse?
the dude you love to hate (and feels the same about you), dmclayton
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 4, 2006 17:49:16 GMT -5
I got mine from www.abe.com . It's best to start with "Always Ready" by Greg Bahnsen and then "Christian Apologetic" by Van Til and then "The Defense of the Faith" by Van Til
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Post by Kerrigan on May 4, 2006 20:03:32 GMT -5
I am studying this as well by the recommendation and influence of Jesse, Miles and Jeff when they were at my house. I actually ordered the DVD's of Greg Bahnsen teaching this. You can find this series here: www.americanvision.org/proddetail.asp?prod=DVD-BTDF. It also comes with an audio debate between Greg and atheist George Smith. It is very good. You can actually get a package deal on that page which includes two of the books Jesse mentioned. You can get more audios of Greg here: www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=207. Hope this helps and hope you come to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 4, 2006 23:07:10 GMT -5
haha, well it will not help me come to repentance...i am using it as a resource for a religious studies class. i will try to take an objective approach to it, but presuppositional arguments used in political debates, for example, prove to be an unaccepted method to counter an opponent's debate. i cannot imagine presuppositional apologetics to be any different, but i will wait until after i read some material to make that decision. we shall see...
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