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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 11, 2006 17:31:34 GMT -5
Fact:The church, especially in America, is one of the finest businesses in the country. Why? Tax-exempt status. Every penny you get is devoid of taxes.
A question I pose to all you theists out there. Why is it that I see a preacher coming to "work" in a badass new beamer, when I see the "normal citizens" of America going to work in Sedans?
Why can't I just bibble babble on stage for an hour a week for more money than most engineers?
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Post by rsmportland on May 11, 2006 17:34:37 GMT -5
Have you seen Jesse's ride?
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 11, 2006 18:01:04 GMT -5
It wouldn't matter if Jesse drove a friggin scooter. The fact of the matter is, most preachers in this world live more luxuriously then most engineers. You don't see a problem with that?
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Post by cervyy on May 11, 2006 18:43:27 GMT -5
Oh heavens no, why would that bother him? It must be a gift from God the way it worked out, but as soon as they start to get screwed over, then all of the sudden there's hell to pay!
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Post by ejuliot on May 11, 2006 18:50:29 GMT -5
Um... I don't know where you are from but in my area it is all those heathens driving around in those beamers and the pastors are driving the minivans and sedans! I do agree that there are some money grubbing sick people out there who say that they are Christians and pass themselves off as pastors so that they can get money to furnish their leer jet, but that is certainly NOT the majority. If churches should not be tax exempt then we should also tax all of those ministries that feed the poor and help out with natural disasters because they are church affiliated as well. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Post by cervyy on May 11, 2006 18:53:27 GMT -5
I did generalize there, I apologize.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 11, 2006 20:01:36 GMT -5
no no no no. churches should not be tax-exempt. but any non-profit organization that is willing to help out the poor and help with natural disasters, they should be tax exempt.
you see, churches are quite profitable businesses, not non-profit religious institutions.
im not saying just churches; mosques, synagogues, everything.
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on May 11, 2006 20:27:24 GMT -5
The fact of the matter is, most preachers in this world live more luxuriously then most engineers. You don't see a problem with that? I totally agree with you. The bible tells us: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. (Matt 6:20) There are many 'preachers' which preach in the name of Jesus Christ and are just in it for there personal gain ie) money, wealth etc. God will judge these 'preachers' appropriately. However, not all preachers are like this. I'm reminded of a story which I heard that a Pastor was offered a fancy car (BMW... something like that) and he rejected it becuase he said how can I drive a car like this and there are people in my congregation which have to walk to church.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on May 11, 2006 20:33:49 GMT -5
If any man dies rich, he dies a failure as far as I'm concerned.
A Christian millionaire who determined to help the world through charity once made that point by saying, "If I die rich I die a failure."
John Wesley determined early on in his life to give away all that he had. His principle was "make all you can, save all you can, so that you can give all you can."
As Ravenhill says, "You know what he left when he [John Wesley] died? A handful of books. A faded geneva gown. Six silver spo0ns somebody gave him. Six pound notes to "give to each of the poor men that carry me to my grave". And that's all that he left.....oh and one other thing. What was it? Oh yes, the Methodist Church!...sure he made money, he printed bibles. Sure he made money, he built orphanages. Sure he made money, he compiled with Charles the methodist hymnal. And he died worth about $30. That's the way to spend your money."
Remember Jesus, "lay up treasure in Heaven". Amen and amen.
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on May 11, 2006 20:34:46 GMT -5
AMEN
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Post by rebecca01 on May 11, 2006 21:08:29 GMT -5
I hope the government does make churches pay taxes God is able to provide.
Genesis 14:21-23 And the king of Sodom said unto Abraham, give me the persons and take the goods to thyself.
v22 And Abraham said unto the king of Sodom, I have lifted up mine hand unto the Lord, the Most High God, the possesser of heaven and earth,
v23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet and I will not take anything that is thine lest thou shouldest say I have made Abraham rich.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 12, 2006 16:05:09 GMT -5
And then we could fund our holy war. Since we're fighting for god, shouldn't god fund it?
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Post by messengermicah on May 12, 2006 17:18:54 GMT -5
atheistbibleburner,
Stop watching TBN. Most of the people on this board do not even watch TBN and we don't agree with it either.
What about all the people who give up everything to follow Jesus? Who move to a poor country and suffer persecution?
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Post by rebecca01 on May 12, 2006 18:52:38 GMT -5
There is absolutely no such thing as fighting for God.Actually I can find a few places in the bible that addresses this.Which one of us particles of dust is going to fight for a holy God as if He needs fighting for???Actually we are just wretched forgiven sinners that have the honor and privilege of speaking His name.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 13, 2006 15:07:47 GMT -5
atheistbibleburner, Stop watching TBN. Most of the people on this board do not even watch TBN and we don't agree with it either. What about all the people who give up everything to follow Jesus? Who move to a poor country and suffer persecution? What the hell is TBN? I should ask you to learn how to write a proper arguement.... or at least a well crafted sentence. Who moves to a poor country? Suffer persection? HA! Maybe if you become the minority, and move to a muslim country. No christian does that. If any do, it's very few. The crusades come to mind. Especially the Children's crusade. That one's my favorite! The muslims didn't used to be so unforgiving, even in the days of the crusades. With leaders like Saladin, who most muslims aspired to be, there wasn't as much brutality among muslims. Christians, however, attacked saracens without reason, provoked wars, and, during one of the takeovers of Jerusalem, butchered every muslim in the city like cattle.
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Post by Jules on May 13, 2006 19:41:41 GMT -5
this got off topic, but that isn't unusual...anyway - I think the reference to TBN (which stands for Trinity Broadcasting Network) was made because that is the place where you see most of these flashy, phony "preachers". TBN was the first (I think) "Christian" (and I say that loosely) television station which started about 30 years ago I think. There are some good programs on there, such as Way of the Master, but for the most part, if you can buy the air time you can go on. And most can buy the air time because they are milking it from their congregations by claims of healings, prayer, etc. It is an abomination in the sight of the Lord, make sure of that. They will have to answer for their actions. I know you are an atheist, but perhaps you believe in the ol' "What comes around goes around" or the karma principle. (by the way, my karma ran over my dogma - I don't believe in the Buddhist principle of course) But, whatever you want to call it, it is called divine judgment in the Bible. And I'm grateful for it.
John Hagee is on TBN quite often, and he is one of the biggest and loudest mouths in favor of the Jewish nation, and Biblical prophecy. I think because you mentioned a holy war that perhaps you were indirectly referring to Hagee's campaign.
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Post by evanschaible on May 14, 2006 9:41:32 GMT -5
Rich Christians will have a hard time enteing heaven. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. John Wesley had a burden to preach to rich people (in his journal) and he often preached to them with great agony and passion. I will never be rich, and I am glad. I would rather be poor in pocket and rich with God than the opposite.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 10:44:08 GMT -5
The war i was referring to was the war in Iraq. Ok, fine, we've liberated them and set up a government, now let's leave!
This isn't just a war for Iraq. This isn't liberation. It is the beginning of the conquest of the middle east.
I referred to Bush in his constant uses of god to back up his war, to call this war a holy war. The americans are no better than the muslims who scream Jihad, and blow themselves up.
By the way, I'm as atheist as you can get. No, karma and whatnot. The only punishment system I "believe" in, is the law.
Lastly, evanschaible, why is it that Vatican City, the size of a medium sized school, has more money than most countries on this planet? Charity or not, robbing the peasants of 10% of their income for about 2000 years adds up.
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Post by ejuliot on May 14, 2006 12:57:16 GMT -5
The war i was referring to was the war in Iraq. Ok, fine, we've liberated them and set up a government, now let's leave! This isn't just a war for Iraq. This isn't liberation. It is the beginning of the conquest of the middle east. I referred to Bush in his constant uses of god to back up his war, to call this war a holy war. The americans are no better than the muslims who scream Jihad, and blow themselves up. By the way, I'm as atheist as you can get. No, karma and whatnot. The only punishment system I "believe" in, is the law. Lastly, evanschaible, why is it that Vatican City, the size of a medium sized school, has more money than most countries on this planet? Charity or not, robbing the peasants of 10% of their income for about 2000 years adds up. The Vatican City is apart of the Roman Catholic Church. I think most of the Christians on this board believe that the Roman Catholic Chruch is NOT Christian. That would just fuel our point!
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 14:24:28 GMT -5
Define christian? Worship christ? check. Believe in the bible? Check.
Trust me buddy, they're christian.
They were the first christians, everyone else comes after them. Breaks apart from them.
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Post by wkufan on May 14, 2006 14:25:40 GMT -5
The war i was referring to was the war in Iraq. Ok, fine, we've liberated them and set up a government, now let's leave! This isn't just a war for Iraq. This isn't liberation. It is the beginning of the conquest of the middle east. LOL! You're silly. There are more than 1.6 billion muslims in the world. You propose our mission is to take over the middle east with about 200,000 combatants? LOL!! If that were the mission, you'd be in uniform already and so would everyone else. Wake up and smell the coffee.
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Post by wkufan on May 14, 2006 14:28:47 GMT -5
atheistbibleburner, Stop watching TBN. Most of the people on this board do not even watch TBN and we don't agree with it either. What about all the people who give up everything to follow Jesus? Who move to a poor country and suffer persecution? You mean The Blasphemy Network? Can't stomach it.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 14:38:06 GMT -5
Are you proposing that these 1.6 billion muslims are all soldiers?
No, we wouldn't be in uniform. Why? George W- "Well, yes, I'm reinstating the draft to help my takeover of the middle east." Shocked Congress, and rest of America-"No you're not." Rest of America proceeds to impeach said president, with overwhelming votes from congress to impeach.
That's what would happen.
I said it was the beginning of the takeover. With our eyes now on Iran, and over 2 years of this presidency to go.... If he attacks Iran, the entire middle east will be so pissed at us that we will be under a constant state of NSA spying, and terrorist attacks. Then of course, we will declare war on the middle eastern countries, who are "harboring" these terrorists.
The slight problem is, I don't see UN backup in that situation, and, seeing as America is already on a decline, America will cease to be a world power.
By the way, what's your view on what our P.O.S. president is doing over in Iraq? and Afghanistan. And why our goals are set to Iran.
Hell, we could actually find some WOMD this time!!!!
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Post by wkufan on May 14, 2006 15:31:39 GMT -5
Do you have any concepts whatsoever on doctrines of war? I suggest you study up on the Battle of Germany, especially on the eastern front and Berlin, and see how many Germans--children, women, old men--took up arms against the Allies and Russians in early 1945. If you go to war with a society or a culture, everyone is your enemy. Are you suggesting if the US were invaded by China or by some other country, everyone capable of fighting wouldn't be doing so? Either militarily or independently? Pffft!
Are you kidding me? LOL! If we were going to take over the entire Middle East, why wouldn't we have done this when we went into Iraq? When we had the material and force to do it? You realize how long it takes to mobilize? Especially under a draft situation? It took us two years to gear up and make an impact in WW2.
I think any government who is intentionally harboring terrorists are suspect and worthy of consideration. Iran has pretty much declared a state of war against the US. And Israel. India has had nukes for sometime, but I have yet to hear them say "Now we can wipe out the US". Iran's leaders are whacked and a threat to the United States.
Yeah, I would expect a temporary suspension of some civil liberties if there were real threats of national security. It happened in the Civil War, World War 1 and World War 2. If you think this is something new and special, then you need to revisit history. Was it right or wrong to do this? I don't know. All I can tell you is we've survived as of today and are able to discuss it in present terms. So maybe it was the right thing to do. Anything else is pure conjecture.
I don't disagree with your assessment on the UN. The UN is all about the UN, nothing more. Nothing less. We'd be better served out of that self serving outfit.
I don't necessarily disagree with "America is on a decline". But my opinion is based on Psalms 9:17 (King James Version) 17The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
I think your reference to the President is dispicable. Whether or not you agree with his policies, he's still your President and mine--like it or not. There's been several Presidents I've not cared for, but I've still respected the office. That's my view.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 15:40:30 GMT -5
What good has he done for OUR country? That's right. Nothing.
He has succesfully met all the requirements of a P.O.S. president, like it or not.
America is on the decline, and Bush isn't helping. Outsourcing, Foreign Oil dependence, lack of scientific research funds, all leading us to nuts.
China's on the rise, and there's plenty of evidence to dictate that China and India will be replacing America as a super-power.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 15:48:28 GMT -5
We support Isreal. Their country exists because of the U.S. of A. Attacking Iran, who , among the rest of the middle east, hates israel, will literally provoke another world war. The entire middle east hates Isreal, and likewise, the entire middle east hates the U.S.
Read about world war I, foreign alliances betwen eachother in Europe sparked 6 nations into fighting with eachother.
Also, if the president said we were to take over the middle east, he'd be impeached so beep fast.... 32%. 68% are willing to throw him out. America can't wage a war longer than 3 years. He's overstayed his welcome. We've liberated Iraq, now what are we doing there now? The U.S. needs to leave before the others start to get pissed. The difference between liberation and take-over, is that in liberation, one frees the people and leaves. In a take-over, the army stays after the "freedom".
We are currently experiencing the second definition. We're done. Let's leave. If Iraqis give a damn about their country, they'll fix it themselves. The dictator is gone, now it's up to them to fix it. Or at least, it should be.
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Post by wkufan on May 14, 2006 15:56:14 GMT -5
What good has he done for OUR country? That's right. Nothing. He has succesfully met all the requirements of a P.O.S. president, like it or not. America is on the decline, and Bush isn't helping. Outsourcing, Foreign Oil dependence, lack of scientific research funds, all leading us to nuts. China's on the rise, and there's plenty of evidence to dictate that China and India will be replacing America as a super-power. It's obvious you have no debating skills nor position other than name calling, obscenities and slander. This is truly disappointing. You have no logic in your reason, just "slogans" and shouts. Who knows what outfit you got that from? Good day to you.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 16:01:59 GMT -5
And you haven't responded to a thing I've said, other than the fact I called Bush a P.O.S.
Now I can say that It's obvious that you have no debating skills other than picking apart at the manner in which the message is given. Who know what outfit you got that from? Strangely familiar to press confrence reporters. Hired by Bush. Hmm.
I'd like to know where my slogans are.Call me blind but, I can't see them.
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Post by ejuliot on May 14, 2006 16:39:08 GMT -5
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 14, 2006 16:56:35 GMT -5
First off, you cite yourself as a resource. Can't do that. Second, the catholics came first. They were the first christians. All other sects of christianity come from them. Third, A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. There are different interpretations of what exactly that entails, however. In any case, Christians by definition are a part of Christianity. --Source, wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_ChurchThe Roman Catholic Church, or Catholic Church, is the largest Christian Church in the world. It's christian. I do hope you have the sense not to proceed further with this idiotic arguement.
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