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Post by tonyholland on May 31, 2006 13:31:29 GMT -5
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 31, 2006 13:44:35 GMT -5
I have my reasons.
Maybe I do have a little faith in where science will take us.
Pascal's wager is a terrible argument, I would suggest not using that again.
Your god is not that nice. Ill demonstrate that in a second. Also, you have not provided any proof. How do you know that YOUR god created everything? You don't. There's thousands of equally capable gods out there.
Now, back to how "nice" your god is. I'll get on even footing with you, and use something you should be quite familiar with: the bible.
We shall start our expedition with Genesis:
"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. God likes Abel's dead animals better than Cain's fruits and vegetables. Why? Well, no reason is given, but it probably has something to do with the amount of pain, blood, and gore involved.
Now we skip a bunch of godliness and go to exodus
God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
God's right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6
"The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." 17:14-16
Like the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, nobody can see God and live. 19:21
Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." 19:12-13
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
If an ox gores someone, "then the ox shall surely be stoned." 21:28
If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then "the ox shall be stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.". 21:29
If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30 shekels of silver, and "the ox shall be stoned." 21:32
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
"Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn't we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19
If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
#
# Moses has some animals killed and their dead bodies burned for God. Then he sprinkles their blood on the altar and on the people. This makes God happy. 24:5-8
Get some animals, kill them, chop up their bodies, wave body parts in the air, burn the carcasses, and sprinkle the blood all around -- in precisely the way God tells you. It may well make you sick, but it makes God feel good. 29:11-37
Wash up or die. 30:20-21
Moses burned the golden calf, ground it into powder, and then forced it down the throats of all the people. 32:20
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
#
# God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
But God wasn't satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35
If you can't redeem him, then just "break his neck." Hey, it's all for the glory of God. 34:20
Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3
And that is some of the stuff in Exodus. This of course goes on in every book in the bible. Need I go on? Yea, lets all worship the kind, loving god of the bible!!!
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Post by evanschaible on May 31, 2006 13:52:10 GMT -5
Okay my friend, I will debate you, one2one, no outside interferences, in a seperate thread. But since you have given me a guideline to not use circular reasoning, then I give you that same guideline. You cant be a hypocrite, so you cant use secular literature when debating me. If we have an agreement, the agreement being this; I cannot use the Bible, and you cannot use secular literature of any kind; I will debate you.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 31, 2006 13:56:52 GMT -5
All, right. Gimme a topic.
(By the way, you might not have seen it, but I fixed the post up there to show god's niceness =D)
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Post by evanschaible on May 31, 2006 14:10:03 GMT -5
Alright, but you must understand, NO SECULAR LITERATURE OF ANY KIND. Ill start a topic in this section; Me and You.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 31, 2006 14:10:53 GMT -5
Define it, what exactly do you mean?
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Post by tonyholland on May 31, 2006 14:13:08 GMT -5
Boy....the testosterone is getting pretty thick there ;D
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 31, 2006 14:17:58 GMT -5
Dude, Incubus is a pretty good band, lol.
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Post by HSTN2983 on May 31, 2006 15:43:56 GMT -5
no, tool is a good band.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 31, 2006 17:12:52 GMT -5
Enh, they're ok.
Audioslave is the best, IMO.
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Post by robdog on May 31, 2006 17:31:44 GMT -5
Enh, they're ok. Audioslave is the best, IMO. (Drinking a glass of milk)...(read's post)...(milk explodes out of nose in disbelief.) Audioslave?
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Post by atheistbibleburner on May 31, 2006 17:33:00 GMT -5
Cornell has some of the best vocals ever.
Morello is just awesome with that guitar.
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 31, 2006 22:12:30 GMT -5
Man, I go away for like a day and I come back to this???
ABB, who said you could use the Bible in your argument of God's niceness?
I come back to the presuppositional argument of how in the world you have come up with your ethic. What grounds do you stand upon to say something is nice or not nice?
I need to look at the other threads before I decide what to respond in this one.
Miles
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 31, 2006 22:26:52 GMT -5
Cmon man, this shouldnt be that hard! You said: That leaves you with trillions of atoms to go through, just in your computer keyboard. Since that is the case, why do you insist on dodging the question? Here, this is interesting and hardly scratches the surface of the handiwork of God. Spiral Wonder of the Spider Web (#200605) by Frank Sherwin, M.S. Abstract Evolutionists, true to their worldview, call this amazing ability of the cheliceriforms nothing more than a unique adaptation. Here's an easy recipe: take food, metabolically convert it into sticky glue. Then, allow air to contact it while rapidly stretching it into an impossibly narrow, nimble thread as strong as steel. There you have it—spider silk. We tend to take for granted the incredible detail and beauty of a typical spider web. The Creator designed most species of spider to secrete a special thread (web) that scientists have long appreciated and have attempted to emulate. They have found that web strands are comparable in strength to fused quartz fibers. Zoologists discovered that spiders have anywhere from one to four pairs of spinnerets located in the opisthosoma (abdomen) of the spider (the normal number are three pairs). In addition, there are along with the spinnerets seven silk glands, each making a strand for a unique purpose. Many dozens of tiny tubes lead to these specially designed abdominal glands. In a process not completely understood, a special scleroprotein-based substance is released as a liquid which then seems to harden as it is pulled from the spinneret. One silk gland produces thread for cocoons and another for encapsulation of prey. The two seem to be the same, but they require different especially designed silk. Other glands make the walking thread so the spider doesn't encumber herself, while another makes the sticky material that captures prey. We are unable to see some of the finer threads unless the light is reflected just right. In fact, during World War II, only spider silk was fine enough to be used for cross hairs in some bomb sights. However, spider silk is also robust with a tensile strength fives times that of steel and elasticity, able to stop a lumbering bumblebee at full speed. Some scientists describe the web patterns much like those mirrored by many flowers in sunlight (UV light). Insects that are searching for nectar see the "flower" patterned web in the UV spectrum and fly unwittingly into the sticky trap. Some spiders even use a long trailing thread for a process called "ballooning." The creature secretes a line and allows the wind to carry it—and the spider—aloft for places unknown. Spiders have landed on ships far out at sea. Evolutionists, true to their worldview, call this amazing ability of the cheliceriforms nothing more than a unique adaptation. Two secular authors state, Each spider engineers a style of web characteristic of its species and builds it perfectly on the first try. This complex behavior is apparently inherited.1 Earliest evidence of a spider's silk-spinning activity is a fossil discovered from "380 million-year-old" sedimentary rocks near Gilboa, New York.2 It is clear that spiders—along with their silk-producing parts—have always been spiders according to the fossil record and the creation model. Campbell & Reece, Biology, Benjamin Cummings, 2005, p. 658. See www.nysm.nysed.gov/education/teacher/ancient_life_text.html .
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 31, 2006 23:17:42 GMT -5
Here's another jack you up type article.
Cosmos and Creator by Mark Eastman, M.D.
They have been called the two greatest questions that face mankind:
Does God exist, and if He does, what is His nature?
Since the time of the ancient Greek philosophers, the answers to these questions have been sought by examining the nature of the universe and its life forms. In the 20th century more evidence has accumulated to answer these questions than at any time in history.
In the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul made a remarkable statement regarding the relationship between our understanding of the universe and the existence and attributes of God.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. -Romans 1:18-20
According to Paul, not only is the existence of God inexcusably evident, but the invisible attributes of God can also be discerned with an examination of creation.
The Cosmos
By the turn of the 20th century many of the laws of physics had been described so successfully that many felt that all that remained was to confirm these laws to a few more decimal places. So successful were Isaac Newton's descriptive laws of motion and gravitation and Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism, that anomalies were often ignored or unrecognized by the physics community. However, when Albert Einstein published the first of his relativity theories in 1905, he shocked the physics community with a staggering new view of space, time, matter and energy. Though he did not know it at the time, his theories provided dramatic insights into the attributes of the Creator of the cosmos.
Among other things, what Einstein's theories revealed was that the flow of time and the structure of space were relative to the velocity, mass and acceleration of the observers. That is, their observed values were not fixed: they were relative.
For thousands of years scientists and philosophers believed that time was nothing more than an abstract notion, conceived in the minds of men, and used to describe the change seen in the physical world. Time, it was believed, was not a thing, it was a mental contrivance. Einstein showed that this was wrong. Time, Einstein showed, was "plastic." That is, it is a physical property of the universe, and that the observed rate that time flows depends on the physical conditions present at the measuring device.
In brief, Einstein's special and general theories of Relativity, now confirmed to at least 15 decimal places, predicted that when a clock travels at high velocity it slows down relative to an another clock whose position is fixed. The same slowing effect is seen when a clock is accelerated or is advanced toward an increasing gravitational field. In addition, Einstein showed that space and time are tightly coupled; so much so that physicists now refer to space-time when speaking of these components. But this was just the beginning.
Several years after Einstein's theories were published, astronomer Willem de Sitter found a mathematical error in Einstein's equations. When corrected, he found a startling mathematical prediction buried within his equations: The universe was finite! Space-time, matter, and energy had a beginning.
In his book, It's About Time, popular author and physicist Paul Davies remarks on this incredible discovery.
Modern scientific cosmology is the most ambitious enterprise of all to emerge from Einstein's work. When scientists began to explore the implications of Einstein's time for the universe as a whole, they made one of the most important discoveries in the history of human thought: that time, and hence all of physical reality, must have had a definite origin in the past. If time is flexible and mutable, as Einstein demonstrated, then it is possible for time to come into existence-and also to pass away again; there can be a beginning and an end to time.1
The Skeptic
I recently had an opportunity to speak on the origin of life at a major public university in Southern California. In attendance were a number of professors who are self-described agnostics. During the question period, one of the professors admitted that the evidence is compelling that the universe was indeed finite. He said that while he could not believe in God (because he couldn't see Him, or study Him scientifically) he said he did believe that someday scientists would discover a law that would explain the origin and order of the universe and its life forms.
After pointing out that he had just expressed faith - the belief in things unseen, but hoped for - I asked him if he believed that the laws of physics, which work in our space-time domain, also had a beginning. He was forced to concede that they did because they would have no place to act before the space-time domain existed.
The final blow came when I asked him if he then believed that some "law" of physics could explain the origin of the laws of physics! He saw the point: The laws of physics cannot be the cause of the laws of physics! The cause of the universe and its laws must be must be independent of the space-time domain, exactly as the Bible claimed 3,500 years earlier!
The Creator
Paul's statement regarding the attributes of God being discerned by an examination of the nature of the universe is quite staggering, considering the state of scientific knowledge in the first century A.D. At that time it was commonly believed that the universe was eternal. In the face of that commonly held bias, the Bible clearly taught that the universe was finite, and the Creator is independent of time and space-exactly as 20th century cosmology suggests.
In the Beginning God created the heavens an the earth... -Genesis 1:1
...&God, (v.9) who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. -2 Timothy 1:8-9 NKJ
...in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began. - Titus 1:2 NKJ
The finiteness of space-time not only points to a Creator who is independent of the cosmos, but it also gives us insight into the minimum resume of such a Being.
The Uncaused Cause
In my discussion with the agnostic professors, I asked them to give me the caveat, for the sake of my next argument, that God did indeed exist. They agreed. I then asked them what would be the minimum "resume" of such a Being. Remarkably, they were quite insightful in their deductions. They quickly recognized that such a Being would not only have to be independent of space-time, but must also be incredibly powerful, incredibly intelligent and able to act unencumbered, simultaneously inside and outside the time domain. Remarkably, without recognizing it, they had described the resume of the Creator as revealed in the Biblical text!
Among other things, the law of cause and effect asserts that a cause is always greater than its effect. Applied to the cosmos it means that the Creator must be more powerful than all the energy stored in all the stars in all the galaxies in the entire universe. Physicists believe that there are at least 1080 particles in the universe. Einstein's famous equation, E=mc2 indicates that the energy stored in the mass of the universe is equal to the mass times the speed of light squared! From this perspective, the Creator must be an all-powerful, omnipotent Being. This very attribute is credited to God throughout the Bible's text.
Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee. -Jeremiah 32:17
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? -Jeremiah 32:27
In my discussion with the professors, even they admitted that all the chemists, molecular biologists, and physicists in the world combined have been unable to create a DNA molecule from raw elements; hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, phosphorus, etc. Moreover, molecular biologists admit that living cells are metabolic machines which are vastly more complicated than any machine made by mankind. They agreed in principle that the nature of these cellular "machines" would require a Being possessing unfathomable intelligence. Such a Being would be, from our limited perspective, an all-knowing, omniscient Creator. Throughout the Bible's text God is described in such terms. For example, in Jeremiah 1:5, God's omniscience is illustrated in his foreknowledge of the prophet even before he was born:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations. -Jer 1:5
The infinite knowledge of God2 is proclaimed in 1 John 3:20 and in Psalm 147:5:
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. -1 John 3:20
Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite. -Psalm 147:5
Finally, if our space-time domain is the direct creation of God, then once He created the cosmos, in order to organize and uphold the galaxies, solar system and its life forms, the Creator must be able to act simultaneously, inside and outside the space time domain. This attribute we call omnipresence. This too is an attribute that is ascribed to God throughout the Bible's text.3
Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off? Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD. -Jeremiah 23:23-24
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them. -Matthew 18:20
God: A Force?
At the end of my discussion, one of the professors asked, "Why did God create us in the first place?" I couldn't believe my ears! To answer this question we needed to deal with another attribute that I believe is also a minimum attribute of God: Personhood. Although Albert Einstein eventually came to a belief in a Creator, he did not believe in a personal God. This was primarily because he believed that a benevolent God would not allow so much evil and suffering in the world. But is this reasonable? I don't believe so.
As expected, at the end of the evening, like Einstein before them, the professors expressed the most common objection to the existence of a personal God: the problem of evil. Like so many skeptics today, they framed the question: "If God exists, if God is a personal Being, if God loves me, then why does he allow evil?" The answer to this question can also be discerned by an examination of "the things that are made."
The answer is so startling and so beautiful and so important because it ties together not only the nature of God and the nature of mankind, but it also provides the answer to the ultimate questions in life: The answers to my origin, meaning, morality and destiny! For this discussion, stay tuned next month.
* * *
This article was originally published in the May 1999 Personal Update NewsJournal. For a FREE 1-Year Subscription, click here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **NOTES**
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Davies, It's About Time, Touchstone Books/Simon and Schuster, 1995, pg. 17. Also Isa 42:9; Heb 4:12-13; Rom 8:29. Also Deut 4:39; 1 Kgs 8:27; 2 Chr 2:6; Ps 139:3,5-10.
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Post by atheistbibleburner on Jun 1, 2006 1:24:31 GMT -5
ARE YOU RETARDED!? ACCORDING TO PAUL, FROM THE BIBLE? WHAT THE beep IS WRONG WITH YOU? ACCORDING TO PAUL, FROM YOUR BIBLE, GOD IS REAL!?
That's the only bit I read, and I am not going to disgust myself by reading the other or any more of that one. Jesus himself would slap you in the face for that.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 1, 2006 4:20:51 GMT -5
christians quoting paul? i rarely hear christians quote christ anymore. ...its always some crazy street preacher fom the nieteenth century or a biblical individual/author, rarely christ.
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Post by newsong on Jun 1, 2006 4:57:02 GMT -5
I need some more of this for my new age neighbor who keeps coming to me for help. This is good! A good read on my best book list is "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock. Which I believe would be a good read for those asking these questions. Here is a small part of the book:- Discourses on The Power of God , The Eternity of God and The Wisdom of God also some more insight to its content which is truly in depth on the second link. It is written to prove that God does exist and is addressed to atheists or those who question his existence and covers the following:- The Existence of God Practical Atheism On God Being A Spirit Spiritual Worship The Eternity of God The Immutability of God On God Omnipresence On Gods Knowledge The Wisdom of God It is a 17th Century Classic and recommended by Leonard Ravenhill as must read of all. 1. www.puritansermons.com/charnock/charindx.htm2. www3.calvarychapel.com/hopefortoday/pdf/God.pdf
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 1, 2006 21:54:26 GMT -5
god's knowledge equals he knows im going to hell....so ive quit bothering. haha.
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