abb
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Posts: 163
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Faith
Jun 27, 2006 18:25:12 GMT -5
Post by abb on Jun 27, 2006 18:25:12 GMT -5
I've been thumbing through Thomas Paine's infamous book, The Age of Reason, and I saw something pointed out in this book that we heathens have not yet pointed out.
You xians constantly badger us about our lack of faith and our need to repent, etc.
You tell us that we pretend to reject faith, and it is within us all, from the moment of conception.
Now, I tell you, that as much as we reject faith, you reject REASON. Paine points out,
So, I say to you, you children of faith reject the reason you say your creator endowed you with.
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Faith
Jun 29, 2006 21:22:47 GMT -5
Post by lauren514 on Jun 29, 2006 21:22:47 GMT -5
Faith and Reason. Hmmm. I would say yes, Hallelujah we reject reason! If i didn't reject reason, i would be dead. Reason is based a lot of times on emotion of the moment. Especially as a woman, what seems reasonable at the time in the long run would be stupid. Everytime in my life that i have denied what logic and reason tell me is the wisest decision and leaned on what i know God and the Bible are pointing me towards, it has always ended up as a right decision. Please note that i am not saying it is okay to live without reason at all. You are right, abb, when you say that God endowed us with our minds. I am not going to walk off a cliff just to test my faith and see if God will catch me. There is not puspose in that. Faith must accompany purpose.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the conviction of what is not seen, of course that defies reason. Without Faith is is impossible to please God. It's not easy to deny reason and have faith. See the problem with those who have rejected God, especially the intellectual ones...is that their god is Reason. They hold their mind to be their god. Therefore faith seems stupid to them. The bible says the message of the cross and of christ is foolishness to those who are perishing. SO if this message seems foolish to you, be warned that you are perishing.
To be saved you must have FAITH in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection and live a life that please him - which is a life of obedience, faith, hope and love. This defies reason and calls you to give it up. "Faith is the art of holding onto things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods" - CS Lewis.
Living a life of reason is a life that is easy on the mind, but a tumult of emotion. It is a blessed thing that as Christians, we can let go of things reason has accepted and hold on to our faith in God as an anchor for every decision and opinion in life. So i say again, Hallelujah i am glad that i have decided to place faith above reason.
*LauRen*
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abb
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Posts: 163
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Faith
Jun 29, 2006 22:16:51 GMT -5
Post by abb on Jun 29, 2006 22:16:51 GMT -5
You have the wrong idea about reason; I will explain later.
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Faith
Jun 29, 2006 23:08:09 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jun 29, 2006 23:08:09 GMT -5
lauren, you cannot be serious!?
faith is based on emotion, not reason. good grief. i am so, so, so sorry that jesse brainwashed you and jeff. you used to be such good, understanding people. but now...
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Faith
Jun 30, 2006 12:54:11 GMT -5
Post by lauren514 on Jun 30, 2006 12:54:11 GMT -5
Faith is based on neither emotion, nor reason. Some people may base a decision off of emotion and call it faith, but that isn't true.
If faith was based on emotion, then we wouldn't make half the decisions God wanted us to make. For instance, i knew that God had told me to quite my job and wait for an offer from a particular place. I didn't think that place would ever offer me a job, and the job that i had paid way more than anyone my age normally makes. My emotions and reason told me it was stupid and filled me with worry. But my faith told me that God has always been faithful and that he is wiser than i. So i quit my job. Less then three days later i was offered a full time position with the other company. I pushed aside my emotions and pushed aside reason and followed God's voice.
Faith i would say is the opposite of emotion and reason. Faith is simply holding onto something that God has told you and believing it will come to pass. Faith is paired so closely with trust, that you can not seperate them.
Abb, can you explain what you mean? What is your idea of reason?
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Faith
Jun 30, 2006 14:17:15 GMT -5
Post by biblethumper on Jun 30, 2006 14:17:15 GMT -5
Sorry, lauren, your post simply does not do justice to the Biblical Record.
Reasoning is employing thought process, dissecting information and concluding such information with reasonable afterthought.
The Biblical record shows that God HIMSELF speaks well of reason, when used properly:
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Further Scriptural support:
1 Samuel 12:7
Now therefore stand still, that I may reason with you before the LORD of all the righteous acts of the LORD, which he did to you and to your fathers.
Job 9:14
How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Job 13:6
Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.
Faith without being built on reason, proper reason, is a faith which can torn to shreds at the slightest use of anti-Biblical propoganda.
Reason and Faith are essentials to the building one's theological and practical lifestyle.
Without reason, you become as a fool, living in a faith which is neither wise nor seeing.
Reasoning is that function of creation which God placed within each individual in order to come to a declared understanding of His Person.
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Faith
Jun 30, 2006 17:30:52 GMT -5
Post by lauren514 on Jun 30, 2006 17:30:52 GMT -5
i am aware. and as i said we should not rule out reason all together. i am simply saying that often times faith over rules what our reason and logic tell us.
on a very basic level this will be different between men and women. Men are very often ruled by reason and logic, and women have their reason and logic tainted by emotions and circumstance. So as a women, i find that i often need to push aside my reasonings and emotions and dig into God. I am talking specifically about the occasions when the thing God calls you to do makes no sense, but you do it anyways.
You know what i mean?
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abb
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Posts: 163
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Faith
Jun 30, 2006 20:16:44 GMT -5
Post by abb on Jun 30, 2006 20:16:44 GMT -5
That's your problem.
Reason = logical conclusion.
What you are talking about is getting what YOU want, which may or may not be logical.
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Faith
Jul 2, 2006 9:43:51 GMT -5
Post by rebecca01 on Jul 2, 2006 9:43:51 GMT -5
This is funny! Lauren, Everything you just said is based on what you are feeling!!!HA!HA! How about some scripture.....
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abb
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Posts: 163
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Faith
Jul 2, 2006 13:45:01 GMT -5
Post by abb on Jul 2, 2006 13:45:01 GMT -5
Ouch, this is sad Lauren... heathen and believer alike is against you... o.0
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Faith
Jul 2, 2006 14:25:32 GMT -5
Post by rebecca01 on Jul 2, 2006 14:25:32 GMT -5
HA!HA!HA! Were not against her atleast Im not.She just got on board the other day and started reaming everyone, which was actually kind of cute.
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Faith
Jul 3, 2006 2:46:00 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 3, 2006 2:46:00 GMT -5
...its all the brainwashing that jesse has done to her and jeff. i actually feel pity towards her.
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Faith
Jul 13, 2006 23:39:42 GMT -5
Post by sequindaisies on Jul 13, 2006 23:39:42 GMT -5
i am aware. and as i said we should not rule out reason all together. i am simply saying that often times faith over rules what our reason and logic tell us. on a very basic level this will be different between men and women. Men are very often ruled by reason and logic, and women have their reason and logic tainted by emotions and circumstance. So as a women, i find that i often need to push aside my reasonings and emotions and dig into God. I am talking specifically about the occasions when the thing God calls you to do makes no sense, but you do it anyways. You know what i mean? I understand you Lauren.....a faith seen is not faith. Mark 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? 39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. 40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
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Faith
Jul 13, 2006 23:48:07 GMT -5
Post by Jesse Morrell on Jul 13, 2006 23:48:07 GMT -5
Certainly there are times that the Lord asks us to obey or believe Him when it doesn't make any sense to our "logical" and "reasonable" minds. If you want scripture for that, just look at the story of Abraham and Sarah. They were promised by God a child, but in the natural they were far too old.
There are times when God's promises and man's reason conflict, especially because man's reason can be limited and tainted and faulty. What determines what is reasonable and what is logical? Does man determine what is reasonable and logical or does God determine what is reasonable and logical?
The Lord only asks us to believe in the believable. He doesn't ask us to believe in the unbelievable. But the believable. And whatever God says is believable! God says it, I believe it, and that settles it. Nothing is more reasonable then believing what God says.
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luvofchrist
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"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Faith
Jul 28, 2006 15:39:48 GMT -5
Post by luvofchrist on Jul 28, 2006 15:39:48 GMT -5
Faith is not contrary to reason, it simply goes beyond reason. Quantum physics cannot fully explain quarks and string theory either but they go on "faith" (gasp) that they have enough information to postulate the theory.
God certainly gives us enough evidence that he exists, contrary to what you want to believe, and expects us to respond to that. We have enough information to go on so we are without excuse.
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Faith
Jul 28, 2006 17:27:41 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 28, 2006 17:27:41 GMT -5
you only see evidence because you are a christian.
edit: besides, if there was evidence of god's existence then faith would be meaningless. your god's sacrifice to you would be meaningless.
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Faith
Jul 30, 2006 17:08:56 GMT -5
Post by sequindaisies on Jul 30, 2006 17:08:56 GMT -5
edit: besides, if there was evidence of god's existence then faith would be meaningless. your god's sacrifice to you would be meaningless.[/quote]
besides if you could see oxygen, then faith that there is oxygen, even when not seen, would be meaningless.
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abb
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Posts: 163
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Faith
Jul 30, 2006 22:50:19 GMT -5
Post by abb on Jul 30, 2006 22:50:19 GMT -5
You can test for oxygen.
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Faith
Jul 31, 2006 0:04:43 GMT -5
Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 31, 2006 0:04:43 GMT -5
good point, abb, but you shouldnt even have to remind people of things like that. however, i find it amusing that christians do not even know the meaning of faith...or science, and somehow they always fuse the two.
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