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Post by cervyy on Jul 29, 2006 20:34:56 GMT -5
As I'm sure you all know God says envy is a sin and worthy of damnation, etc. etc.
But I've just come upon the fact that God is guilty of this crime! In Exodus 20:5 "for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God."
Huh, God is one of those 'Do as I say, not as I do' kinda people.
Of course this isn't the only time he's broken his own law. Think of all the killing he's done. Heck, think of the flood.
Hypocrital God for hypocritcal "Christians."
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 29, 2006 20:56:24 GMT -5
here is the real question:
how can a man be saved if he is killed?
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Post by cervyy on Jul 29, 2006 20:58:57 GMT -5
Ohhh ... I didn' even think of that.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 29, 2006 21:43:04 GMT -5
nobody ever does. people tend to act before they think.
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luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Post by luvofchrist on Jul 29, 2006 22:03:27 GMT -5
As I'm sure you all know God says envy is a sin and worthy of d**nation, etc. etc. But I've just come upon the fact that God is guilty of this crime! In Exodus 20:5 "for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God." Huh, God is one of those 'Do as I say, not as I do' kinda people. Of course this isn't the only time he's broken his own law. Think of all the killing he's done. Heck, think of the flood. Hypocrital God for hypocritcal "Christians." First of all the commandment is against covetousness, not jealousy. Covetousness is desiring something that belongs to someone else and doesn't belong to you. Jealousy, on the other hand, is according to the Merriam Webster Dictionary: intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness. Jealousy is not always a sin. A spouse has a right to be jealous of an unfaithful spouse, etc. Our devotion, love, faithfulness and loyalty belongs to God, therefore He is not desiring something that isn't His to begin which would be coveting but He instead He is jealous for our affections because He made us and our affections should be His. When we prostitute ourselves out to false gods (money, position, work, false beliefs) God gets just as jealous as a husband would to find his beloved wife walking the streets picking up tricks. So, (1) envy and jealousy are two different things and (2) no contradiction at all since God's jealousy is holy and justified.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 29, 2006 22:22:18 GMT -5
the question, yet again, and forever will be:
how can a man be saved if he is killed?
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Post by cervyy on Jul 29, 2006 23:11:29 GMT -5
My love does not belong to your God so he is indeed being covetous of what was never his and could never be his.
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Post by oap001 on Jul 29, 2006 23:42:04 GMT -5
the question, yet again, and forever will be: how can a man be saved if he is killed? You have to understand something there Dusty. Jesus came to redeem lost sinners to HIMSELF. When a person is born again. He or she gives God His proper place in their lives..as being God. In other words they agree that God is who he says He is and they repent. So you and the other heathens will remain "unsaved" until you first acknowledge Jesus as being God in the flesh. Then there are the matters of repentance and a total dependence on the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Thats why we as Christians wouldn't agree with you. God is our sovereign. He is our all in all. He is right to be jealous at idols and such. Because we belong to Him. Regarding your question on how can a person be saved if they are killed. You would have to place it in proper cont ex. Today is the day of salvation if one should put it off..who knows what tomorrow Will bring. Really Dusty its all between you and God..not any one of us. Your angry at us and you would be at Him if He was here. Your just to proud to submit to Him as being Lord. Really we are nothing but sinners who deserve to spend eternity in hell and that is where your pride and rebellion will eventually take you.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 30, 2006 0:02:59 GMT -5
you did not answer the question. nice side-step, do you square dance? the old testament is filled with examples of god commanding his people to go to the city down the road and to destroy everything. he commanded them to kill the livestock and burn the crops. he commanded them to rape the women and children in front of the men, and then kill the men. he also commanded to cut fetuses from the wombs of pregnant women--abortion. the modern world proves more examples: the war in iraq, and the middle east over all, is a war promoted in the name of religion. bush claims we are doing this in the name of god, and mentions it in every address to the nation. we are taking the lives of people simply because they are different than us, and they are doing the same. i am not giving them any excuse. the are murdering us in the name of their religion. the point still remains: you kill a muslim and send him to hell. good job. praise god. now, i would agree with you if it was a civil war in america. why? everyone has been exposed to the testimony of christ, myself included. can you safely say that is the case in the middle east?
here is another disturbing revelation. capital punishment. abortion is a terrible crime against god, according to christians, so we must wait until they are thirty before we kill them. send them to hell too, at least the fetuses were innocent and would be with god, according to the bible.
christians have double standards, and not a lot of logic.
so, again, how do you save a dead man?
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Post by cervyy on Jul 30, 2006 6:25:42 GMT -5
I would like to add a bit of rational thought to my last post.
God gave us free will correct? He either gave us permission to go worship another God or made us all Pandoras, and gave all of us a box and told us not to open it. He didn't even lock the box. The only thing preve3nting us from opening it is ... nothing. And like Pandora, we were given curiousity.
SO, when we go and give our love to someone or something else its God own fault for giving us that pesky free will. THEREFORE, its only His love when we give it to him and if we don't. then its not His.
It seems to me that the Bible was right when it described God as jealous. And God just broke his own law.
God as a killer has still yet to be refuted.
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Post by rebecca02 on Jul 30, 2006 6:46:38 GMT -5
You've got this all wrong here...Since your not born again and you do not have the spirit of God living inside of you it's very hard to help the unsaved understand the bible because you have to hear what the spirit of God is saying.This kind of jealousy is speaking of a holy anger.In the greek in one place it says angry.Just as if another man took your wife.It's pure anger along with an angry kind of jealousy.
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Post by biblethumper on Jul 30, 2006 8:53:31 GMT -5
Rebecca Said: Just as if another man took your wife.It's pure anger along with an angry kind of jealousy.
If another man took a wife, as horrible as that might be, God's anger is NOT like that, because the Bible commands us to LOVE our enemies...and we are to love them AT ALL TIMES, regardless of what they do.
Heathens, God's wrath, anger and jealousy are NOT comparable to man's in ANY sense.
God is Holy and His Righteousness will prevail and He cannot be compared to any human situation of anger such as adultery etc etc.
Do not believe it (though I didn't think you would anyhow).
God's Holy Jealousy is far far far removed from anything we can compare it to in the human sense.
Here's what you NEED TO KNOW:
Unless a man is Born Again, he cannot see, be in, share in or go into, the Kingdom of god. (John 3:3)
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Post by evanschaible on Jul 30, 2006 8:58:29 GMT -5
Oh dusty (if that is your name), you again are thinking wrongly.
A man dies in the sense of dying to self, dying to sin, dying to the world, not physically dying and being placed in the grave. That is simply a truth you cannot comprehend until you are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Your thinking is carnal, the truth yo uare trying to refute is spiritual. Therefore you cannot refute something you are not able to understand.
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abb
Full Member
Posts: 163
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Post by abb on Jul 30, 2006 10:45:19 GMT -5
That "argument" has been used to convert heathens in the past.
If you're not christian, you can't understand gawd.
So, you're a dumbass unless you're christian. If you're christian, it doesn't matter if you can't spell your name; you are enlightened.
One has to convert in order to "understand", thus stopping the discussion and allowing the christian to cop out of the argument.
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Post by evanschaible on Jul 30, 2006 10:59:00 GMT -5
No,
One has to be born again in order to understand the things of God as they are spiritually understood. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness. But you are right in one sense when you say that non Christians are intellectually stunted as there is a whole new realm of knowledge unaccessible to you while you are dead in sin. Tht is not ad hominem but rather truth as the Bible presents it. Lying, stealing, etc. causes seperation from God and ultimately hell. Unless however you stop sinning ad trust Jesus.
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Post by rebecca02 on Jul 30, 2006 12:01:11 GMT -5
Dan, Whenever the bible speaks of God's jealousy it's always refering to God's people in a state of adultery with the world.That is the only reason why I brought up that example.Sure it may be a weak example but it's not always easy to explain to the unsaved why God reacts the way he does to sin.Im just trying to say to the unsaved basically "how would YOU react?"I really hope this isn't going to be made into an issue.Maybe you would have a better example that you would like to share...I don't claim to be enlightened or super spiritual...Most people when they think of jealousy they think of covetousness.God can't covet because he owns the world!
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Post by rebecca02 on Jul 30, 2006 12:09:14 GMT -5
Abb, Of course you can understand God, but many things you cannot.Before I got saved I went to church with my family and when I was really sick once my mother would read the bible to me but I couldn't understand it but some things I could and it was comforting but upsetting to me at the same time because alot of it didn't make sense.Even now there are alot of things I do not totally understand in the bible but the bible God says that "my thoughts are higher than your thoughts and my ways than your ways.Haven't your parents ever told you growing up, "you may not understand it but it's for your own good?"
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Post by biblethumper on Jul 30, 2006 12:31:21 GMT -5
Dan, Whenever the bible speaks of God's jealousy it's always refering to God's people in a state of adultery with the world.That is the only reason why I brought up that example.Sure it may be a weak example but it's not always easy to explain to the unsaved why God reacts the way he does to sin.Im just trying to say to the unsaved basically "how would YOU react?"I really hope this isn't going to be made into an issue.Maybe you would have a better example that you would like to share...I don't claim to be enlightened or super spiritual...Most people when they think of jealousy they think of covetousness.God can't covet because he owns the world! Oh goodness, no...I wouldn;t turn such a fleshly debate into an issue. I simply wanted to let the non-Believers understand that God cannot be compared to the example you gave, which is simply not Scriptural. No issue there, sis. Blessings in Yeshua. Dan
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Post by rebecca02 on Jul 30, 2006 12:37:27 GMT -5
biblethumper
I think I will let God be the judge of that one...
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Post by oap001 on Jul 30, 2006 13:52:34 GMT -5
you did not answer the question. nice side-step, do you square dance? the old testament is filled with examples of god commanding his people to go to the city down the road and to destroy everything. he commanded them to kill the livestock and burn the crops. he commanded them to rape the women and children in front of the men, and then kill the men. he also commanded to cut fetuses from the wombs of pregnant women--abortion. the modern world proves more examples: the war in iraq, and the middle east over all, is a war promoted in the name of religion. bush claims we are doing this in the name of god, and mentions it in every address to the nation. we are taking the lives of people simply because they are different than us, and they are doing the same. i am not giving them any excuse. the are murdering us in the name of their religion. the point still remains: you kill a muslim and send him to hell. good job. praise god. now, i would agree with you if it was a civil war in america. why? everyone has been exposed to the testimony of christ, myself included. can you safely say that is the case in the middle east? here is another disturbing revelation. capital punishment. abortion is a terrible crime against god, according to christians, so we must wait until they are thirty before we kill them. send them to hell too, at least the fetuses were innocent and would be with god, according to the bible. christians have double standards, and not a lot of logic. so, again, how do you save a dead man? Dusty, your all over the place. 1)God never commanded anyone to rape or commit abortion. 2) Use of force issues and just wars are very broad subjects. 3) No one sends anyone to hell...its unbelief that destines a person to ever lasting damnation. 4) The civil government has the authority to uphold God's law. One thing about God's anger....it's just and its very absolute. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah. Everyone died...their sin brought their deaths. Remember the flood..their sin brought their own death.
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Post by wkufan on Jul 30, 2006 14:15:11 GMT -5
Think of all the killing he's done. Heck, think of the flood. \; Yes...think about it. God hates sin! He destroys sin. If you live in sin and reject God, you're an enemy of God. The Scriptures give us sufficient warning of the wrath of God. This is why we need Jesus--because we're all sinners. Jesus paid the judgment for us. Unless one repents and trusts Jesus, then that person will be judged and sentenced as well.
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Post by biblethumper on Jul 30, 2006 15:10:07 GMT -5
biblethumper I think I will let God be the judge of that one... His Word has already judged. dan
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Post by rebecca02 on Jul 30, 2006 16:09:26 GMT -5
Your right his word is powerful, sharpen than any two edged sword able even to divide soul and spirit joints and marrow and is the discerner of the thoughts and intentions of the heart.Amen brother!
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luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
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Post by luvofchrist on Jul 30, 2006 16:34:15 GMT -5
Book, chapter and verse please for that incident please?
As for the rest of your examples:
Yes, God often would give whole civilizations time to repent (hundreds, even thousands of years) but oftentimes they went from bad to worse. Thus God cuts them off from the face of the earth to save the rest of the planet from being contaminated by the disease of their sins. God destroyed those civilizations out of mercy.
You may not even have been born had God not destroyed those civilizations. The human race could have been so corrupted by disease because of the sins that it wouldn't have survived had God not cleansed the earth of them.
This action by God will again be repeated in the end times when God again cleanses the earth of those who refuse to repent and so be saved. God calls this showing contempt for His kindness and patience. He hasn't turned us into post-toasties because He's giving us time to repent. His patience is not unlimited however. There will come a day when God will judge the world for it's unrighteousness and God will not be mocked. I say this to warn you. Now is the day of salvation, you don't know if you have another day left on this planet.
They refused to repent and so be saved, so God destroyed them.
Jer 5:2-3 Although they say, 'As surely as the LORD lives,' still they are swearing falsely." (people who claim to be Christians but don't acknowledge God/Christ as their Sovereign, Savior and Lord) 3 O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth? You struck them, but they felt no pain; you crushed them, but they refused correction. They made their faces harder than stone and refused to repent . NIV
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Post by HSTN2983 on Jul 31, 2006 0:42:17 GMT -5
"God destroyed those civilizations out of mercy."
wow. i had no idea that intentionally sending people to hell was merciful. i wonder what heaven is like.
----
p.s.
are you really, really, really sure you want a list of verses in which men were killed, women were raped, livestock was killed, and fetuses were ripped from the womb?
...because the list is long and isnt pretty, besides, wouldn't you just explain it away or say that i took it all out of context.
this is the christian answer for everything, so, i am not sure why i should post anything...you won't read it.
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Post by wkufan on Aug 1, 2006 12:49:56 GMT -5
"God destroyed those civilizations out of mercy." wow. i had no idea that intentionally sending people to hell was merciful. i wonder what heaven is like. ---- . I'm not sure where "destroying for mercy" comes from in this thread, but God destroys out of judgment. God "sending" people to Hell is not a merciful act, but an act of judgment. Actually, people send themselves to Hell by rejecting God. We have ample opportunity to get "right" with God. He sent His only Son to die for us for that opportunity of mercy. Make no mistake about it. God hates sin! He will execute judgment on those in sin. He makes this very clear. Those people who were killed as cited in the old testament were clear examples of His judgment. As far as a command for rape, there's no such direction or command. This is completely bogus. It is appointed for man to die once and then judgment. There's one thing people need to understand. God owes us nothing. Anything He has done for us is because of His love for us. He allowed Jesus to die a horrible death on the cross just so we can be righteous and worthy to spend eternity in paradise. This is true love and mercy! He doesn't need us a bit. We need Him. Keep in mind if God executed judgment on entire cities, civilizations, etc, in the old testament, what latitude do you think an individual will have with God without Jesus when judgment comes to the person? Your answer should make you tremble.
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abb
Full Member
Posts: 163
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Post by abb on Aug 1, 2006 15:16:19 GMT -5
GOd hates sin, yet he created sin.
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Post by wkufan on Aug 1, 2006 17:06:28 GMT -5
GOd hates sin, yet he created sin. God created the ability to choose between loving Him or hating Him. He could have produced robots--much like angels are. But He wants you to love Him by your choice and not forced. It's your choice...life or death.
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Post by evanschaible on Aug 1, 2006 18:28:36 GMT -5
Cite for me, If you will, ONE example that CLEARLY shows God has broken one of His own laws. ONE at a time.
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Post by HSTN2983 on Aug 1, 2006 19:02:09 GMT -5
we are already discussing this in 'the bible' thread, evan. biblical contradictions would basically be the same as saying god breaks his own laws, right? i dunno...but if everyone wants to have two threads of the same topic...whatever.
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