|
Post by cervyy on Aug 19, 2006 22:54:56 GMT -5
Does anyone know of a good Web site that could by any chance show a family tree for Adam and Eve??
I ask because I am confused about where Cain and Abel found wives to continue on populating the world. All I can remember there being for children of Adam and Eve are the two aforementioned sons and Seth.
I have have heard that the wives of course were unmentioned sisters that were born. BUT, why would the geneology of the start of the human race by so sloppy as to not include all the names of Adam and Eve's children? Surely the Bible could have included THAT simple information.
OR are there just flaws in the Christian creation story? Maybe it is just that, a STORY.
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Aug 20, 2006 22:41:43 GMT -5
They married MONKEYS. *le gasp*
Hahah, I always had the same question, and no one could ever give me a decent answer. Big surprise there.
PS: I'm baaaaaaack.
|
|
|
Post by cervyy on Aug 20, 2006 22:44:42 GMT -5
They married MONKEYS. *le gasp* Hahah, I always had the same question, and no one could ever give me a decent answer. Big surprise there. PS: I'm baaaaaaack. Monkeys ... you know, probably true. Ya, I'm hitting myself for being surprised no one has tried to answer it. Yay, more "heathens!" ;D
|
|
luvofchrist
Full Member
"Gibson" the wonder pup
Posts: 233
|
Post by luvofchrist on Aug 21, 2006 13:14:38 GMT -5
So, if I understand correctly, the basic question is: Where did Cain get his wife?
First, to answer the question of why ALL of Adam and Eve's children were not mentioned is that since Adam and Eve lived several hundred years they probably had many children. In addition, in middle eastern literature only those characters important for the author's purposes are mentioned. In this case, of the numerous children Adam and Eve had, only the names of Cain, Abel and Seth are in import to the author and writer.
Cain’s brothers and sisters Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:1). His brothers, Abel (Genesis 4:2) and Seth (Genesis 4:25), were part of the first generation of children ever born on this Earth.
Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve—‘And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters.’ This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Genesis 5:3) before Seth was born.
During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, ‘The number of Adam’s children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.’11
The Bible does not tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve. However, considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years—Genesis 5:5), it would seem reasonable to suggest there were many! Remember, they were commanded to ‘Be fruitful, and multiply’ (Genesis 1:28).
The wife If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extra-Biblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to have married sisters or there would be no more generations!
We are not told when Cain married or any of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that some brothers had to marry their sisters at the beginning of human history.
Objections God’s laws Many people immediately reject the conclusion that Adam and Eve’s sons and daughters married each other by appealing to the law against brother-sister intermarriage. Some say that you cannot marry your relation. Actually, if you don’t marry your relation, you don’t marry a human! A wife is related to her husband even before they marry because all people are descendants of Adam and Eve—all are of ‘one blood.’ The law forbidding marriage between close relatives was not given until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18–20). Provided marriage was one man to one woman for life (based on Genesis 1 and 2), there was no disobedience to God’s law originally when close relatives (even brothers and sisters) married each other.
Remember that Abraham married his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). God blessed this union to produce the Hebrew people through Isaac and Jacob. It was not until some 400 years later that God gave Moses laws that forbade such marriages.
Biological deformities Today, brothers and sisters (and half-brothers and half-sisters, etc.) are not permitted by law to marry because their children have an unacceptably high risk of being deformed. The more closely the parents are related, the more likely it is that any offspring will be deformed.
There is a very sound genetic reason for such laws that is easy to understand. Every person has two sets of genes that specify how a person is put together and functions. Each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent. Unfortunately, genes today contain many mistakes (because of sin and the Curse), and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. For instance, some people let their hair grow over their ears to hide the fact that one ear is lower than the other—or perhaps someone’s nose is not quite in the middle of his or her face, or someone’s jaw is a little out of shape—and so on. Let’s face it, the main reason we call each other normal is because of our common agreement to do so!
The more distantly related parents are, the more likely it is that they will have different mistakes in their genes. Children, inheriting one set of genes from each parent, are likely to end up with pairs of genes containing a maximum of one bad gene in each pair. The good gene tends to override the bad so that a deformity (a serious one, anyway) does not occur. Instead of having totally deformed ears, for instance, a person may only have crooked ones! (Overall, though, the human race is slowly degenerating as mistakes accumulate, generation after generation.)
However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that they will have similar mistakes in their genes, since these have been inherited from the same parents. Therefore, a brother and a sister are more likely to have similar mistakes in their genes. A child of a union between such siblings could inherit the same bad gene on the same gene pair from both, resulting in two bad copies of the gene and serious defects.
However, Adam and Eve did not have accumulated genetic mistakes. When the first two people were created, they were physically perfect. Everything God made was ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31), so their genes were perfect—no mistakes! But, when sin entered the world (because of Adam—Genesis 3:6ff, Romans 5:12), God cursed the world so that the perfect creation then began to degenerate, that is, suffer death and decay (Romans 8:22). Over thousands of years, this degeneration has produced all sorts of genetic mistakes in living things.
Cain was in the first generation of children ever born. He (as well as his brothers and sisters) would have received virtually no imperfect genes from Adam or Eve, since the effects of sin and the Curse would have been minimal to start with (it takes time for these copying errors to accumulate). In that situation, brother and sister could have married with God’s approval, without any potential to produce deformed offspring.
By the time of Moses (a few thousand years later), degenerative mistakes would have built up in the human race to such an extent that it was necessary for God to forbid brother-sister (and close relative) marriage (Leviticus 18–20).12 (Also, there were plenty of people on the Earth by now, and there was no reason for close relations to marry.)
This and more information can be found by checking "Answers in Genesis"
|
|
|
Post by cervyy on Aug 21, 2006 13:36:13 GMT -5
In this case, of the numerous children Adam and Eve had, only the names of Cain, Abel and Seth are in import to the author and writer. That gets me though. Okay, even if there were 500 children, they were still the FIRST children ever!! How the heck is that not wicked important?! Obviously, what's important to the reader doesn't factor in into the Bible. Why would the reader matter?
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Aug 21, 2006 15:33:40 GMT -5
cervyy writes:
Obviously, what's important to the reader doesn't factor in into the Bible. Why would the reader matter?
If God's word included every bit of data since creation, it would be so long, no one would be able to handle it. God obviously wanted us to get the critical data He decided would be important and also provide for curiousity that might cause some to ask questions, so we could discuss the Bible and talk about the things of God.
That being said the reader is key. God's Word is intended to work on the conscience of man. It is to show him that he has broken God's laws and needs a Savior. It is God's love demonstrated that Jesus came to die in our place, making a way we might be acceptable to God and wash away our sins. Too many get hung up on "non critical" issues and miss the overall point that the Bible is a book of God redeeming man from himself and his selfishness, through His Son Jesus Christ.
We love Him, because we find in scripture He first loved us. Cain and Abel and Seth's wives are less important than the blood line which eventaully brought Jesus to become "God with Us", and that He will also be the Judge on Judgment Day for all who ever lived or will live.
Luvofchrist did a very great job offering a reasonable and Biblically accurate explanation of where the wives came from, but the question I have for you is now that you have that answered, "Where would you be if you died today?"
|
|
|
Post by cervyy on Aug 21, 2006 19:13:08 GMT -5
My conscious tells me to trust whatever it is I would base my religious beliefs on. And a fragmented and half-finished STORY about the start is a lousy start. A book with a bad beginning has a small chance of leading into a good ending.
And like I stated before. They were the first freakin people EVER!! And they're not important?!? Riiiiiight.
"Where would you be if you died today?" I don't know.
WHY?
Christianity (since OA came to my campus) is now flawed and incomplete to me. OA has put my religious convictions in doubt. So, I no longer even know where my options for an afterlife are.
And if you guys were right, I would never want to spend an eternity in "Paradise" with a God like yours demanding fear and worship (two sorry reasons to create all mankind. Only a despot or cruel being would create us for that reason). No, I'd rather be in eternal torment AWAY from your God. Because eternity in heaven WITH Him would b just as horrible.
I can answer though, that if I did die, I'd be buried in the same graveyard as my grandma and that is the only assurance for my death I want thanks to OA.
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Aug 22, 2006 18:17:59 GMT -5
God did not create us to fear and worship, in the sense you might be thinking about.
I have 3 children. I had 3 children not to make them fear and worship me, but to have fellowship and love. I have rules not meant to harm them, but to help keep them from real danger. I may have to punish them when they disobey, even though I don't want too, so they can learn to avoid the things which can hurt them worst than my spanking.
I also may reach a point when for their own good, I may have to distance myself from them. I do not want to be an enabler, because I then help them stay in that problem (its called tough love). I can't stop my children from destroying themselves, but I can received them back to my house, if they live by the house rules. I own the house and am allowed to set the rules for my house.
God, also is entitled to have rules to follow. Even though He loves all He created, He is still entitled to set standards for His own house. Everyone makes their choice. They decide to accept that the heavenly Father has rules and abides by them, or chooses their own way.
We know God loved us, because after the law was written and established for all time that the wages of sin was death, which since everyone breaks them, makes us all guilty on Jugdment Day, He sent His own Son to take the punishment of our own sins. How much more loving can a God be than to die for you?
You should fear yourself, more than God! You will seal your own fate if you fail to see His law as reasonable, realize He loved you enough to make a way for you to be with Him in heaven, and then decide to turn from doing things your way and your sin and decided to follow Jesus and live for the will of God.
I never wanted to do things other than my way, until I realized the love He showed on that cross. I saw myself deserving of that penalty and was broken to think that someone else had to take my punishment.
I medevil days a King's son would have a whipping boy, who was beaten when the King's son did wrong. I don't know about you, but I would feel worse if someone was beaten for my bad deeds, than if I got the beating. Seeing the other be beaten for my actions would also cause me to not want them to beat again. Therefore, I would try hard to be good, not for my sake, but for that whipping boy. Seeing Jesus' suffering for my sins (and yours) cause me to no longer want to do the things that caused Him to suffer in the first place.
It is more my love for Him, than fear of Him, that cause me to love and obey Him and worship Him.
Jack Jackson
|
|
shangxin
Full Member
"Who is this lady?"
Posts: 106
|
Post by shangxin on Aug 23, 2006 11:15:11 GMT -5
I medevil days a King's son would have a whipping boy, who was beaten when the King's son did wrong. I don't know about you, but I would feel worse if someone was beaten for my bad deeds, than if I got the beating. Seeing the other be beaten for my actions would also cause me to not want them to beat again. Therefore, I would try hard to be good, not for my sake, but for that whipping boy. Seeing Jesus' suffering for my sins (and yours) cause me to no longer want to do the things that caused Him to suffer in the first place. It is more my love for Him, than fear of Him, that cause me to love and obey Him and worship Him. Jack Jackson One) What does that have to do with anything? and two) I really doubt a spoiled and priveleged child who would come to realize he could never be physically punished would be as repentent as you. The only reason they had whipping boys was because the royal children were foridden to be hit. The whipping boy thing is nothing but elitist and unfair and more proof of how royalty treated their subjects however they wanted. It's nothing to attach moral messages to.
|
|
|
Post by robdog on Aug 23, 2006 11:20:45 GMT -5
OA has put my religious convictions in doubt. Matthew 14:31 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
|
|
|
Post by cervyy on Aug 23, 2006 11:22:36 GMT -5
But OA has proven that that's exactly what God wants.
And, how does this story answer my questions about the faulty beginning?
|
|
shangxin
Full Member
"Who is this lady?"
Posts: 106
|
Post by shangxin on Aug 23, 2006 11:26:11 GMT -5
Women didn't matter back then. The end.
|
|
|
Post by cervyy on Aug 23, 2006 11:27:15 GMT -5
OA has put my religious convictions in doubt. Matthew 14:31 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" I'll answer this actually. Though I'm sure I've said it before, here we again, once more, with feeling. (sorry, pop culture jokes are swell). I have seen OA and disagree with it. Right to my core, it seems flawed. I agree with some of it, coming from a Christian background, but on the whole it just flashed 'incomplete' like a broken truth. That's all for now. I need to go jump up and down in joy. Just heard the best news since ... well, yesterday. But a lot of good things are happening! (YAY FOR LONDON!!)
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Aug 23, 2006 12:29:15 GMT -5
shangxin:
The point is that conversion is a real heart change. Many self professed Christians are just like that spoiled King's kid, not really caring about Jesus, but seeing him as a mere whipping boy for their selfish lives of sin.
One who doesn't love Jesus, will have no problem continuing in their sins, or seeing why they should stop sinning.
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Aug 25, 2006 7:46:31 GMT -5
Women didn't matter back then. The end. HAHA TRU. I LOL'd at the "science" above used to explain genetic mutations. Because of "the fall" we now have biological mistakes? Wow, you guys never cease to amaze me. I guess that's why I keep coming back. DNA replication is a VERY complicated process. Sometimes, when replicating the DNA that will eventually become an embryo and later a fetus, a piece or two will be left out or passed over by accident. The DNA replication might miss adding a single Cytosine or Guanine. Oops, nature. Happens. This is not because of the great "sin" of Adam and Eve... people do not have diseases and physical disfigurements, mental disabilities, blindness, or any sort of deviation of physical or mental capability because they're sinful. That's crazy. What you're saying sounds frighteningly similar to the trash excuses that were once used for ostracizing disabled people from society. Just FYI for those who don't know, I was born without my left hand. Whether that was a genetic problem or something random that happened mid-pregnancy, no one could ever tell me. It certainly wasn't anything my mom did wrong, she didn't smoke or take drugs or anything stupid like that. It just happened randomly. The logic that you are using tells us that my birth defect is a sign of the so-called sin of humanity, and during Medieval times, I would have been either abandoned as a baby, killed at birth, or thrown in an insane asylum for mentally and physically "feeble" people. This is why all of you like minded people TERRIFY me. Even as I laugh at your idiocy, you frighten me with your madness. Because of overzealous religious beliefs, many people in the world today and throughout history have suffered overwhelming torments and unjust cruelties. Seriously, have you ever picked up a history book? Just take a look and study the tradition that you are perpetuating. JUST. STOP. PLEASE.
|
|
|
Post by valentine on Aug 25, 2006 7:55:18 GMT -5
LUUUUUUUUUUUUNAAAAA!!!!111 ;D This post has no point other than to celebrate Morluna's return to the foremzzz. I'm sure you will all forgive me, seeing as how you're so big on forgiveness.
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Aug 25, 2006 8:19:03 GMT -5
<3
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Aug 25, 2006 13:55:20 GMT -5
Morluna:
You comments on the DNA vs. sin issue are well presented. Know that in the Bible, the Lord was asked about a man born blind. He was asked whether he or his parents had sinned. Jesus said neither, but that it was to glorify God. It was then that Jesus healed that man and he could see. Was it an amazing event for the man? Yes. Did he then go and tell many others what Jesus had done? Yes. Did that glorify God? Yes.
If the Bible is true, we will be here a slit second compared to all of eternity in either heaven or hell, so whether we have all the standard equipment here matters little. I have a dear friend with MS, who rather than look at him getting MS as a bad thing, he sees it as a blessing because it caused to seek after God and he found the Lord. Now he looks forward to his new perfect body in heaven, the one he will have for ever and ever.
The key in this post is to know that "no new data is ever added", but that data is reduced in inter family gene pools. Eventually, that can cause genetic problems, as has been scientifically documented. My wife's familiy is Philipino where everyone has brown or black hair and brown eyes. Her father married a women of Polish and German background. My family has all blue eyes and brown hair. My youngest son has blonde hair and blue eyes like him Grandma and fair skin. When he is held by his blood Grandfather who is dark skin Philipino with browm eyes and black hair, many can't believe it is his Grandson. Genetic material was reintroduced to his offsprings offspring, but no new data was created, only re-introduced.
This was not a problem in the early humans, because Adam and Eve had all traits in their genes that have ever existed. As cultures and people groups are isolated and lose data, with an outsider bring some data back, it eventually can cause problems.
As for your hand, your Mother, or Father may have been exposed to something they were not aware of. I am a Certified Hazardous Material Manager (CHMM) as well as a Pastor/Evangelist, in my tent making (making a living). Many chemicals are teratogens, such as lead, alcohol, carbon monoxide, mercury, benzene, , and arsenic.
Many of these are not injested purposefully through abuse, but due to problems with lead paint dust (homes older than 1978), arsenic was a heavy metal used for herbicides around railroad tracks, and orchards. Mercury can get into fish, and was a real problem in the Great Lakes and in some rivers, especially in VA's James River for a time. Many children played with mercury before much was known, and many fillings were made with too much mercury in the silver and its leaching into the body could cause problems as well.
Finding out the answer, won't give you a new hand in this life, but might help bring closure to the "why". If I can provide you with any other data on this, or help you do an inquiry, I will.
Know this though. Those who will put their trust in Jesus Christ and live for Him in ths world, will have magnificant bodies in the life to come. There will be no birth defects in our new bodies. All of the chemicals mentioned above are naturally occuring, and in small amounts in normal distrubution on earth are usually not a problem (except benzene found in crude oil). It is when they are concentrated that we generally see issues.
If your mom or dad was exposed, your birth defect would not be from their sin, but could be that someone else used way too much, or dumped that chemical creating many consequences. Therefore it would the sin of the one that dumped it, exposing others.
I am sorry to hear that that type of carelessness could have caused you so much grief.
Jack Jackson
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Aug 25, 2006 22:20:35 GMT -5
Thanks for your concern and kind words Jack, but make no mistake, I don't grieve over my physical situation. I have always made the most of it and truly there is very little if anything that I cannot do because of it. Ask Vally, she'll tell you. Yes, I understand what you just explained about teratogens. I didn't quite go into all the details in my previous post, but this is actually the best theory anyone could come up with about what happened to me. There was some kind of chemical plant very near the place where my parents were living when they became pregnant with me, and several families in that area experienced similar birth defects in their babies at that time. Of course, no one could ever prove anything, but it seems likely that that's what occured.
In any case, I don't feel I need to seek "closure" on the issue. I've been this way for 21 years, I'm used to it now, and it bothers me very little. Only when I'm in particularly vain moods and wish it didn't look so funny and different do I care about it.
... now if Bush would just start funding stem cell research, maybe some smart scientists could grow me a hand, transplant it, and I'd be all set. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be 80 by the time that happens.
Also, I don't believe in physical bodies after life, literally. I hope that once I leave this biological frame I will no longer need a material manifestation and wander the universe in spirit and thought processes alone.
|
|
|
Post by jackjackson on Aug 25, 2006 23:45:12 GMT -5
Oh well, if it is true, you could have that hand. I grew up with a great young lady named Tammy, who also was born without a hand. She was the one of the most beautiful girls in our school, and had such a wonderful personality, she was love by most everyone.
Your attitude towards it is a great one.
I guess if I had enough faith, and the Lord asked me to ask you to stretch forth your hand, like he did with the man with whithered hand in the scripture, your hand would manifest, even now. May God do a miracle and place someone in your path that He might give the authority to do so. I believe it can happen, and have heard stories of such things happening.
Jack Jackson
|
|
|
Post by Morluna on Aug 26, 2006 9:56:44 GMT -5
That's one of my favorite healing miracles by Jesus in the whole New Testament. It always made me smile to read it. ^_^
|
|