|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 11:35:54 GMT -5
Well of course, there are hypocrites in organized religion, but it must be noted that they are not Christians. Moving on...
That is the reason I asked you the questions I did, in order to not make assumptions, but rather to address what you believe, not your person. SO if you would be so kind as to tell me what you believe. But I must ask, please logically and rationally support your claims as to avoid confusion for onlookers, and within the debate as it commences.
I assume you were looking to debate one, Brad Snow. But I would be obliged to take his place. I will start a thread with this same post, please, show how the Christian worldview is false, and show how you worldview is rationally and logically solid.
Evan.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 11:40:06 GMT -5
Also, I kindly request that you would no longer reply in PM Dale, but rather here in this thread. I am one who like open dealings, not secretive cpnversations. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 13:49:32 GMT -5
You are on. Let;'s start witht his one.
Where is heaven and hell? Instead of asking me to disporve that these exist let me put it in yopur court and have you prove that such things do exist. You are the one who is supposed to have the faith, not me and know so much more than me, a simple heathan, about such things. I obviously believe in neither, since you ask what I believe in. Where is heaven and where is hell?
1.In the Bible you see Jesus ascending into heaven. I kind of get a vision in my head of him taking off like Apollo 13. This tidbuit of mythology seems to suggest man at the time thought heaven was in the sky. So where did it go? We flew in airplanes and found no heaven. We went into space and still no heaven.
2.In the myth of The Tower Of babel, we have mankind trying to build a tower reaching into heaven, again stemming from a belief that heaven was in the sky. So where is it? We know that bulding such a tower would be meaningless now, right, as there is no heaven in the clouds above.
3.Where is hell?. We again have the idea that if heaven is above, then hell must be below. So where is it? We have gone pretty deep onto the earth, No hell. No lake of fire. As far as hell goes, the christians themselves don;t even know their own myth. Continually, they speak of Satan as a ruler of hell, sitting on this red throne like the cartoon devil in South park. According to mny take on it, the devil and his fallen angels are burning right alongside the rest of us sinners. Again, the christians don;t seem to know much about their own guidebook. Thuis aside, where is it?
Wew already established, I think, that using the bible with me is futile, so if you plan on bombarding me with 1000 scriptures, do not, as this has no meaning to me and just doesn;'t seem to sink in.
So what do I believe in? Nothing anymore and if there is something afterward, I could care Can you prove otherwise? Here is a good starting point. Where do we fuind heaven and hell?less.
You want to dance, then pal, you have a dance partner in me.
And everyone else out there, among the nonbelievers, let's respect the Christian. Keep it between me and him. Let's see what he is made of.
So for a starter, where is heaven and hell? Show me some evidence, because unlike you, I am not goign to accept things in faith.
And if Brad is out there, let's keep him off this thread too. He missed the train.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 14:29:35 GMT -5
The above was somewhat oif an emotional response from me. Before going any further, let me pose this question. Do we need to establish any ground rules or do you want this to be no holds barred? When not acting on a purely emotional response, I can treat you as respectfully or disrespectfully as you treat me. You call it. How do you want to do this? The only thing is there should be some kind of order in this as to not create utter chaos that benefits nobody or frankly , results in the same he said-he said absurdities you can find on other parts of this board or others like it? I am notg oign to be able to unsave you and you are not goign to get me to change my mind about things, but for the sake of other onlookers on both sides of the fence, I am perfectly willing to go with this, seriously, on this thread. I can make my wisecracks elsewhere .
Might I suggest a limit of one question and response at a time, between parties rather than going off in a thousand directions? With this in mind, let me rephrase the above statements from the last post , put the ball into your court and I will take it from there.
Where is heaven and hell? Where is proof of the existance of either. In The Bible (hey, I will flip flop . I will even for the sake of the onlookers, let you use the Bible against me). Where is heaven and hell? Youw ould, I assume, ask me to accept the existance of both in faith, which in my case is futile. Where is heaven and hell? As noted above, the bible seems to suggets heaven is in the sky, thanks to Jesus ascending there, the tower of babel story and someone else getting taken up into heaven in a chariot or something? Where in the sky is it? Likewise, where is hell? Where is this place? Instead of asking me to disprove hell, why don't you prove it and justify your own belief in such a thing? Where are these places? Youa re so certain I am going to go there and you are not? Where are we going? How can you convince me or any other onlookers that either exists? I will log back on late tonight and see if there is an answer and at least try to respond before leaving, but if not, will get back with you sometime S.unday. So le tit begin. Where is hell and heaven? Again, i can play this as seriously as you can, so......
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 17:11:35 GMT -5
Ground rules? No ad hominem, and avoid formal, and informal fallacies. with that said...
On what basis do you make this assertion? You must have some procedure to come to this conclusion, what is it?
My above question is logically prior.
Again, on what basis do you make these assertions? You have raised no objection as of yet. You have yet to prove anything against the Christian worldview. Please answer my above question and we can then commence smoothly.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 17:15:04 GMT -5
The repeated question, "where is heaven and hell" proves nothing except you do not know where heaven and hell is. I ask again, on what basis did you come to this conclusion that, "hell doesnt exist"? You must have a logical and rational procedure in doing this, what is it?
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 17:24:28 GMT -5
I am not going to go through the Bible and look up the exact verse right now, but in all the creeds and doigma I have ever heard in church one of the essentials of belief is that Jesus ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God. Jesus ascended into heaven, which implies ascend or went upward, so where did he go? This suggests to me at least, an upward propellion motion like a human rocket ship. On the same ground, it makes note that Jesus descende dinto hell (for whatever reason, iyt makes no sense to me) after dying on the cross, which again implies a downward motion. Walking on the earth, I would take this to imply hell would be under the ground. If this is not correct, where is the response from you to prove otherwise?
On the same line of thought, you have not answered my question thrown up to you. Where is heaven and hell?
If youa re going to commence, then commence. We both know there is no way to prove hell doesn't exist, but outside of the biblical verses, how can you prove that it does?"
Shouldn;t you be the one trying to convince me that hell is real? I mean, doesn;t it make me braver than you? If I am right, you have wasted your life on a god who does not exist, but IF you are right, then i am indeed going to go to hell right? Wouldn't that make me the braver of the two of us, because I am willing to take that risk where you are not?
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 17:35:10 GMT -5
I can easily turn the tables on you as well. I assume that since you believe in this so srongly, you must know where hell is? Maybe then you should do the Christian thing and point out exactly where I will be going and why, aside from mention of it in the Bible, I should have any fear of going there?
You ask me to prove my point, but do not prove your point to me. I see the way you are trying to set me up already. You will then bring uop that being I cannot prove hell doesn;t exist, i should thus accept the fact that it may exist and from there, we should look at why i should fear it? Correct? It is not so simple,.and we both know it!
Well again, you ask much of me, but offer nothing in return. I assume by the tone you might know where exactly heaven or hell is at?
O posed a question oif you and did not get an answer. You ask what i think, without offering what you think.
Let;s try it again then .
Where is heaven and where is hell? Simple question and you have yet to answer it for me either.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 17:36:34 GMT -5
My question is logically prior. I am not speaking here of the scripture verses you have used, because scripture will only prove there is a hell and heaven. But what is your rationale for these things being non-existent? Do you ubase you claims upon empiricism, or something along those lines? Again, we have to start at the beginning. If your entire worldview has a faulty foundation, then your entire worldview is faulty.
You are asking me to debate my worldview without using my first principle. That is like me asking you to debate whether or not the sun is hot without making reference to the sun, it is not possible.
I am not interested in flexing my muscles or finding out, "who is braver". But you do put yourself in an interesting dilemma. However, the issue right now is this; What school of thought, orsystem of rationality , have you used to come to this conclusion, "there is no heaven and hell". If you have no logical basis for this objection than it isnt an objuection, but rather an arbitrary opinion.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 17:54:40 GMT -5
Okay then, so already we are going noplace. I also have to sign out and start packing some stuff for NYC but will log back on later tonight or early tomorrow before leaving and get back with you again. For a twenty year old, you are better at this than I thought. So be it.
In the meantime, I will not disarm you. Use the Bible and all the scriptures you want. This was unfair of me because isn;t it the Bible also that is on trial here? Use your Bible to your heart's content and start with hell if you prefer. Debate your world view using your first principle.
I, however, do not believe in heaven or hell because the word that it exists in a book are simply not proof enough for me that there are such things. The fact that every religion tends to have some type of afterlife has yet to be physically proven either (People covered this in other threads, why rehash any of it). It is not just Christianity I disbelieve in, but the other religions as well. None offer anything but words, emoty threats and empty promises. We are going in circles here and I already see the approach where you are trying to set me up. So let's try again.
If my world view is flawed, why don;t you straighten it for me. Where is your proof that hell and heaven are real? Whuikle asking me to prove that hell and heaven does not exist, you fail to offer me any proof that it does.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 17:56:34 GMT -5
Scripture will only prove there is a heaven and a hell? How? Words written in a book?
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 17:57:15 GMT -5
I am going to New York as well. PErhaps we could formally debate this issue? Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 18:03:39 GMT -5
Jesus Christ is my wisdom.
1) If the proof of words written in a book are not enough then you must discredit any and all history recorded within history books, among many other things.
2) Your are quite correct that every religion does indeed believe in an afterlife. But only the judeo-Christian scriptural worldview is correct.
3) Are you an athiest? (we can cover this at a later time).
You have not answered my question, which is say again, is logically prior. Where is you proof it is not real and what do you base it on?
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 18:04:03 GMT -5
I am leaving Friday with my wife bia a turn around tour pacjage and have a lot to cram intot he day and earkly evening on Saturday before returning home. I have a day;s worth of thigns set between shopping (when and if you are ever married, youw ill come to dread this experience, unless you are already) and to visit a few places where I am going to set up book signings and also meet with a film distruibutor. If you are going to be street preaching someplace, do you have some general idea where at? Central park, Columbus Circle, what? I might be able to swing by.
I can give you aboiut fifteen more minutes on line now, then i do have to go for the monet/
If you are seriously going to be in ne wyork, maybe we can swing by briefly and meet face to face without killing each other. Ifc you are bluffing,.y our bluff is called. It seems too coincidental.
I can give you fifteen more minutes online now. At a quarter past seven I have to get some other things organized.. .
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 18:06:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 18:16:09 GMT -5
1. What hostrians? Josxzepus? I would content him to be a real dude and the churhc added clever forgeries untoi his original writings just to give the gospel credibility or someone who never existed and again his writings would thus be forgeries. I find it particularly odd in hbnis writings that he conveniently notes Jesus rose from the dead, yet evidently being around to see or hear of this firsthand, as opposed to us today who must accept this in faith, he did not become a believer himself or give any indication that he did. A bit odd.
2. It has been touched upon in other posts about comparison and contrast between religions. Satan and other adversaries. A great flood. Suopernatural beings coming down, whooping it up with women and giving birth to giants. Strongmen. Resurrection and dying god myths. Judgement. By what assertion can you say that only Christianity is correct? Because it says so in the Bible someplace? (I went through this The bible is the word of god because it says so in the Bible debate on another post).
3. I would not totally close off my mind to the existance of a creator,m but just flat do not believe Christianity is it. Oh man, I am being Ali begging Leon Spinx to hit him now aren;t I? I would lean toward atheism, but will not fulyl embrace it. Very difficult to explain my philosophy. I do not rule out the possibility of a creator, but do not believe any of the religions found in the world to be correct. Could we have beenc reated by chance? Possibly? Could there be some divinity out there? Possibly. Do I really care either way? Well, no? I am not an atheist as much as I am a unique :who cares" typ[e. Hey you asked. It would be easier to say I am an atheist, but why lie?
Of youa re online now I cana wait your response but then i really have to wrap this up for now.
You know kid, I wouldn;t really want to go on a picnic with you, but I am not really hating you like I thought I might.
I can be as civil to you, as you are to me.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 18:17:20 GMT -5
The typos get worse as I work longer and longer online during the day,. Do not ever grow old and neeed bifocals or you will be the same way. I can give you a few more minutes and then take this up later.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 18:23:47 GMT -5
Sorry kid, it would have been interesting, but you are not anywhere near me this Saturday. A pity. Now I have to go for now. So until next time.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 18:27:02 GMT -5
I meant that quote about history principally, meaning if you discredit one book, then one what grounds do you give others credibility? You are quite correct that people added to his writings in favor to Chrsitianity, but that does not in any way discredit what he himself said. Leaving this and moving on...
I have based my statement upon Jesus words, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me" (John 14:6). But even here, the debate is straying. We are not speaking as of yet about other religions.
You seem to be avoiding my questions. I would much like to stay on topic. You asserted there is no heaven or hell, or rather, WHERE IS heaven and hell. But you havent answered my logically prior (that phrase is getting old) question: On what basis do you make the assertion heaven and hell do not exist?
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 18:38:03 GMT -5
1.No physical evidence it exists 2. The common thread of a good and bad afterlife in other religions as an attempt to explain existance and justify moral behavior, Religions which again, I assume you discredit as silly or as myth 3. Logical explanations of supposed "Dead for a moment or afterl;ife esperiences" (.oe . the floating skyward experience, the bright light experience, blah blah and blah) 4. Not just an opinion, but a fact used throughout history that people who are scared are easy to govern. On the same hand all religions but especially Christianity use hell as a scare tactic to enforce devotion to their religion, to Jesus and to obediance to the church autghorities.
I have to go for now.
You are better than I thought at this, but we still have a long way to go.....Next time I won;t come expecting a cakewalk.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Aug 31, 2006 18:50:57 GMT -5
This is for you to prove.
You are right, the Judeo-Christian scriptural worldview is the only logically justifiable and rational worldview. Knowledge is impossible apart from the revelation of scripture. If you disagree, it is for you to prove.
Have I referred to these or used them as evidence?
This is for you to prove.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Aug 31, 2006 20:46:46 GMT -5
I allowed myself to be suckered. By making the first statement it became my obligation to prove it, which of course you and I both know cannot be done. This won;t happen again.
Therefore I am going to give you the first round without any more fight and concede there could be a heaven and could be a hell. I await your next move.
|
|
|
Post by Miles Lewis on Sept 2, 2006 19:21:04 GMT -5
The New Testament warns over 400 times that there is indeed a hell. The real question is how does one end up there? Which brings up morality. What do you believe about morality?
This is Evan...really.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Sept 3, 2006 10:46:38 GMT -5
How dumb do you think I am? The data for you and the data on Evan does not add up. Therefore we have had someone else, one of the Christians, try to sneak in and violate the rules that were supposed to be established here.
You just cannot trust the Christians to stick to their own rules and this proves it. No more discussion from me here and no more point to point arguing from me on this thread.
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Sept 7, 2006 7:49:17 GMT -5
Dale,
You assume to much. Did I not say I was going to New York? I assume you know that I am travelling with Miles. I just jumped on for a moment and posted,and since it is his computer, the board automatically signed on to his account and I didnt know it, nor did I expect it would really matter.
SO if you would, please respond to my intitial question.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Sept 7, 2006 9:01:05 GMT -5
I believe one can be a "good" or moral person without the need of the bible as guidebook or jesus as a savior.
|
|
|
Post by dale on Sept 7, 2006 9:18:18 GMT -5
Your newsletter went too far where you had the nerve to actually put into headlines that an atheist (me) engaged you in a debate and you won.
1.This was far from over, so how you justuify winning is beyond me.
2.Did I specifically say I was an atheoist? In fact I pointed out that I was not.
3. This underhanded garbage is NOt gonna cut it with me. I never consented to anythign about me being in your enwsletter.
4. Consider this a "win: if you want then but as of now I will NOT engage you at all, NOT debate you and NOT respond to you so kindly do NOT repond to my posts elsewhere.
5 What you put on your newsletter was for the birds. If this is the kind of antic I can expecyt from you, then no more....
|
|